QUEEN CLEA: Are you a fan of her look?

[Shadowcat]

I enjoy it, I just think it needs a bit of an update. Keep the headdress as closely as possible too. I’d make her closer to the Aztec roots tho. Build off of that mythology to add to Diana’s list of potential adversaries.

[Mel Dyer]

Queen Clea is as much a grotesque, as Darkseid or Ming the Merciless, and could do with a more evocative look, ..like the one I gave her in the Wonder Boy shorts. Honestly, though, I actually like her being a slightly, disquietingly larger, than normal, red-haired woman.

I also fancy the idea that Queen Clea should be able to psionically alter her appearance, into something like...Big Pharma exec, Veronica C-a-l-e. Cale (a scattered anagram of C-l-e-a) is so dull-as-dishwater, I've imagined her revealing that, after fabricating her droll, quasi-feminist success story, ..she had been Clea, all along. After which she would grow to a height of seven-feet tall, with bluish green skin, a skyscraper-sized giant robot on stand-by ..and requisite eye beams...if only!

Anyway, with Robo-Seidon in tow, she was a fun super-villain to pit against Golden Age Wonder Boy.

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[Agent Z]

I find it rich when people who defend costumes like Clea's resort to the "sex negative" accusation as if superhero comics are some epitome of sex positivity. Just look at how many female villains are depicted as using their sexuality for evil or how many of them were sex workers at one point. That's way more sex negative than giving Clea a more modest costume.

[Agent Z]

edited post.

[Psy-lock]

I find it rich when people who defend costumes like Clea's resort to the "sex negative" accusation as if superhero comics are some epitome of sex positivity. Just look at how many female villains are depicted as using their sexuality for evil or how many of them were sex workers at one point. That's way more sex negative than giving Clea a more modest costume.

That's rarely the case for the Wonder Woman villains though. And DC even went out of their way to cover them up in recent years to the point when none of them have revealing outfits anymore.

[Artemisfanboy]

That's rarely the case for the Wonder Woman villains though. And DC even went out of their way to cover them up in recent years to the point when none of them have revealing outfits anymore.

Most of WW's rogues gallery that's appeared since Rebirth never had revealing costumes to begin with, and I don't think they've be cherry picking conservative dressed characters. DC really doesn't have any kind of problem with characters having "sexy" costumes in general from where I'm standing. If they do it's a not very noticeable trend. The only character at DC who's costume I've had a problem with because I think they've tried too hard to be serious with altering her costume is Zatanna and her leather pants look in JL Dark the past two years, and I'm happy she's returned to a more classic design with fishnets in future state, and hope it carries over to the main book.

I mean let's actually take survey of villainesses since Rebirth.
Cheetah-Well, she is a naked werecat.
Veronica Cale-Never had a revealing costume to begin. Wears normal clothes.
Doctor Cyber-Never had a revealing costume to begin with
Doctor Poison-Never had a revealing costume to begin with
Anglette-Distaff couterpart of Angle Man, costume is the same as him. Not revealing.
Blue Snowman-Never had a revealing costume to begin with. Current "outfit" is actually a giant mech.
Zara- I think her current outfit was actually more revealing than her golden age outfit. https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Zara_(Prime_Earth)
Circe-We had another debate about this over in over in the future state thread I think. Outside of her DCUniverse Online costume, I don't really feel like she's had super revealing costumes. The general consensus was her main appearance from Rucka's run is kind of boring visually and she could use something flashier/vampier, with suggestions tending towards her Perez design, JLU design, her JL Action design, none which which I would call super revealing
Mayfly-Never had a revealing costume to begin with.
Giganta- I guess her sports top and shorts cover a bit more skin than her cave woman look, which hadn't been used since before the New 52, but not by much.
Grail- Well, I guess she started wearing pants in Wilson's run. And her black leather pants were pretty tight so I'm not sure they count as less "sexy".
Silver Swan- I guess you can consider the black and silver tights to be covering up.
Warmaster-Once again, the classic Paula von gunther never had a revealing costume to begin with.
Devastation-Looked exactly the same as she did back in Eric Luke's run. And never had a revealing costume to begin with.
Armageddon- Female legacy character of a male villain. Pretty similar outfit and not revealing.
Genocide- Same outfit as the simone run. The costume was never very revealing.
Liar Liar-Plain normal everyday clothes. Not revealing.

Circe I think could use a better outfit. Vanessa shouldn't be Silver Swan anymore since she recovered in one of the stories in #750. Maybe if they bring back Helen or Valerie or introduce a new one they could consider having bare legs again. But they're not really big deals to me.

I find it rich when people who defend costumes like Clea's resort to the "sex negative" accusation as if superhero comics are some epitome of sex positivity. Just look at how many female villains are depicted as using their sexuality for evil or how many of them were sex workers at one point. That's way more sex negative than giving Clea a more modest costume.

I think you're seeing problems where there really aren't any. Now people are going to have different standards and ideas of modesty, but from where I'm standing most of her rogues gallery never really had some kind of unreasonable exaggerated super revealing costume to begin with and I don't feel they've been cherry picking conservatively dressed characters. As an extension not many of them do or would weaponize their sexuality. And none of them have sexual exploitation in their backstory except possibly Zara assuming she has a similar backstory to her golden age counterpart which isn't confirmed. I really don't get complaining about Clea's outfit in this context, particularly when she isn't even set to appear.

[Koriand'r]

I enjoy it, I just think it needs a bit of an update. Keep the headdress as closely as possible too. I’d make her closer to the Aztec roots tho. Build off of that mythology to add to Diana’s list of potential adversaries.

Her feathery serpent headdress hearkens back to Quetzalcoatl. It's a vague similarity, sure, but pretty easy to see.

Hate to beat a dead horse, but you're skipping over the obvious, Queen Clea's headdress is Egyptian inspired, not Aztec.

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Here are the Google image pages for Quetzalcoatl, Quetzalcoatl headdress and Cleopatra, it's clearly Egyptian. Look at the last image for Cleopatra.

[Mel Dyer]

Her outfit in the 40's did have straps. Actually, I think the red and green color scheme also was a bit more striking...

I'm not so sure about that. We see figures of Greek Mythology pop up frequently in non-WW books with no reference to WW. And if it's such a big deal, just make Venturia it's own thing away from Atlantis.

Another brilliant observation, by Nyssane! However, rather than making Venturia and Aurania separate from Atlantis, ..I would see Clea made her 'own thing'. I would prefer seeing Clea established, as NOT being a native of Venturia and, instead, ..the conqueress of other realms and people, long before she had ever settled in Venturia. For me, that would tie into her being able to psionically change her appearance, at will - to look like any people, which she chose to conquer.

Clea is Diana's Kurgan, as I see it. Her origins are ancient horrors, rotting in the shadows of history...even before history was being recorded.

In response to the OP's original query, ..I would like to see Clea's original form be a seven-footish, red-haired giantess, with scars, covering her body. I would favor darker colors, certainly - muted or dark olive green and old gold - but, the Egyptian headdress and antiquated armaments are fine, and I even like them. They're storied and suggest we know something of Clea's struggle to occupy her moment, in the narrative - that she has literally killed or worked to be there.

Diana's Kurgan shouldn't look like a giant, pristinely dressed Barbie doll.

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[PopQuezy]

The adult fans who read Big Two comics lap up the Death Metal stuff and treat Batman Who Laughs seriously even though it's the dumbest thing ever. Superheroes have always been political or have messages, often times kind of incidentally, but they are first and foremost entertainment and often times the stuff aimed at kids and teens, or is family friendly, is more thoughtful than the mainstream stuff that revolves around big, empty events. Even if its just in their capacity to present likeable characters. Marston's comics are dated in multiple ways (including being racist and sexist), but for what they are/the time they came out, they often provide more interesting things to examine than the average Big Two comic these days which is just explosions and people hitting each other. And those were way more cartoony than what we have now, but they are easier to accept as entertainment that has some value. BTAS, when it was on its A-game, was similarly smarter and telling better character driven stories than what we typically get in the Batman comics aimed at the adults in today's comic market.

DC is heavily skewed towards having only fanservice femme fatale villains, so Clea shouldn't be updated alone. ALL her female rogues need to be fleshed out and given focus and offer a variety of character types and visual styles. Cheetah should be tragic body horror/uncanny valley, Veronica should be beautiful but conservatively dressed, Giganta should be beefy and muscular and wear a practical outfit, Dr. Poison should be covered head to toe in her androgynous mask and trench coat, Hypnota could be similarly androgynous or even non-binary, Cyber should be an android, Blue Snowman should wear her goofy and bulky armor, and Circe should have a variety of looks that range from fully practical to vampy, etc. As long as they are not going overboard with the cheesecake, Clea showing skin in a vampy way isn't going to be the end of the world as long as they do not treat all WW villains that way. And since she and Ptra are evil mirror images of Hippolyta and Diana respectively, like Hippolyta she can have a range of looks and the classic design can be only one of them. Even if it is the only one, she shows as much (if less) skin than Ivy and Harley typically do and people accept them as competent and dangerous.

It isn't "incidental" that comic book characters are first and foremost political figures that are used to spread propaganda. Superman, Wonder Woman, and Captain America were all created, in part, to spread and dispense American Values to American children. Just because something is created "for entertainment" and "for children" doesn't negate that it inherently a political message. "Truth, Justice, and the American Way." Stat-Spangled underoos and defeating metaphorical nazis are political messages regardless of the demographic.

I also question how "family-friendly" stuffing a corpse in a refrigerator is; or snapping someone's neck; or being raped by one's own son; or genocide; or multiple personalities that result in one's suicide; or being beaten to death and having a loved one hold your corpse as she screams to the heavens. Communicating the argument that comics are for kids: 1. does not refute that they are political as children consume political messages every single day and 2. does not refute the multiple instances in comic books that explore adult themes or the fact that middle-aged men are the primary demographic of the comic book market; hence, why D.C. has specific lines that target specific demographics, including these children these that have been largely left out of the mainstream comic consumer base since so many of the stories explored there actually are not "family-friendly." Lastly, I find it odd that anyone who is a Wonder Woman fan would be screaming about "family-friendly" content, since Marston, even by today's standards, would not be considered "family-friendly" in his lifestyle choices or the themes he chose to explore in Wonder Woman.

Lastly, I never said that Clea shouldn't be vampy or even sexual. As a matter of fact, I specifically say that an appropriate level of vamp and sex appeal would be perfectly serviceable for the character. I am simply saying that clothes, depictions, and visuals matter. If Clea is a villain that the DC Universe wants us to take seriously, then her visuals will have to match that. A metal bra doesn't make that impossible; however, it will add an extra burden to her credibility in a world that already doesn't take female villainy as seriously as male villainy.

[PopQuezy]

Most of WW's rogues gallery that's appeared since Rebirth never had revealing costumes to begin with, and I don't think they've be cherry picking conservative dressed characters. DC really doesn't have any kind of problem with characters having "sexy" costumes in general from where I'm standing. If they do
I mean let's actually take survey of villainesses since Rebirth.
Cheetah-Well, she is a naked werecat.

While I agree with the vast majority of the things you said, I do disagree with this description. While Cheetah has always been a "naked werecat," he depictions have been extremely less sexualized starting with Rebirth and Sharp's redesign. Even the Dead Earth depiction shows the more "body horror" depiction that Siege asks for. However, some of Cheetah's depictions look like a normal everyday woman in sexy cheetah makeup. Some of those depictions were heavily sexualized to the point that it was impossible to take her seriously as a villain. Speaking for myself - obviously - but I am happy the cheesecake aspects of the character have disappeared.

I also think there's a difference between simply showing skin and being framed as cheesecake, but I'll let someone else take up that argument if they so choose.

[Nyssane]

Hate to beat a dead horse, but you're skipping over the obvious, Queen Clea's headdress is Egyptian inspired, not Aztec.

quetzalcoatl aztec.jpg

aztec headdress.jpg

cleopatra.jpg

Here are the Google image pages for Quetzalcoatl, Quetzalcoatl headdress and Cleopatra, it's clearly Egyptian. Look at the last image for Cleopatra.

Agree to disagree then, I guess. Her headdress isn't exclusively Aztec-inspired but the influences are there. Egyptian headdresses are similar as well.

[Koriand'r]

It bothers me that only one kind of woman is deemed capable; or even acceptable. The modest kind. Meanwhile I see skin tight yoga pants with illusion mesh on women of all ages in public everywhere I go. So those women who like wearing high heels, short skirts, halter tops, crop tops, skin tight jeans or booty shorts deserve no kind of recognition. They don't exist in comic books, simply because the "male gaze" might enjoy it too much and the world will come to an end.

[Koriand'r]

Agree to disagree then, I guess. Her headdress isn't exclusively Aztec-inspired but the influences are there. Egyptian headdresses are similar as well.

Aztec headdresses reach for the sky, Egyptians are close to the head barring other types of ornamentation such as a crown or asp.

[Artemisfanboy]

It isn't "incidental" that comic book characters are first and foremost political figures that are used to spread propaganda. Superman, Wonder Woman, and Captain America were all created, in part, to spread and dispense American Values to American children. Just because something is created "for entertainment" and "for children" doesn't negate that it inherently a political message. "Truth, Justice, and the American Way." Stat-Spangled underoos and defeating metaphorical nazis are political messages regardless of the demographic.

I also question how "family-friendly" stuffing a corpse in a refrigerator is; or snapping someone's neck; or being raped by one's own son; or genocide; or multiple personalities that result in one's suicide; or being beaten to death and having a loved one hold your corpse as she screams to the heavens. Communicating the argument that comics are for kids: 1. does not refute that they are political as children consume political messages every single day and 2. does not refute the multiple instances in comic books that explore adult themes or the fact that middle-aged men are the primary demographic of the comic book market; hence, why D.C. has specific lines that target specific demographics, including these children these that have been largely left out of the mainstream comic consumer base since so many of the stories explored there actually are not "family-friendly." Lastly, I find it odd that anyone who is a Wonder Woman fan would be screaming about "family-friendly" content, since Marston, even by today's standards, would not be considered "family-friendly" in his lifestyle choices or the themes he chose to explore in Wonder Woman.

Lastly, I never said that Clea shouldn't be vampy or even sexual. As a matter of fact, I specifically say that an appropriate level of vamp and sex appeal would be perfectly serviceable for the character. I am simply saying that clothes, depictions, and visuals matter. If Clea is a villain that the DC Universe wants us to take seriously, then her visuals will have to match that. A metal bra doesn't make that impossible; however, it will add an extra burden to her credibility in a world that already doesn't take female villainy as seriously as male villainy.

You see, the way you're arguing that the metal bra is inherently damaging to her ability to be taken serious "an extra burden" is what I'd disagree with. I'd also disagree that female villainy is taken less seriously than male villainy. It indicates at the very least you're primarily evaluating against a particular kind seriousness above others. There isn't such a thing as a one shoe fits all style. Visuals are a sum of things other than simply what a character is wearing. Framing, scenery context and other things are important. While her wearing ether her golden age outfit or the Jimenez outfit might not work in all situations, it does work very well in others. Going back my previous example, it might be wise to give her different costume for combat purposes if she's personally leading an invading army, but her previous outfits for well in their context of presenting her as a decadent evil queen sitting on her throne in Venturia(Golden age), or Skataris(Jimenez) and if you were brought before her as a prisoner one would take her seriously.

While I agree with the vast majority of the things you said, I do disagree with this description. While Cheetah has always been a "naked werecat," he depictions have been extremely less sexualized starting with Rebirth and Sharp's redesign. Even the Dead Earth depiction shows the more "body horror" depiction that Siege asks for. However, some of Cheetah's depictions look like a normal everyday woman in sexy cheetah makeup. Some of those depictions were heavily sexualized to the point that it was impossible to take her seriously as a villain. Speaking for myself - obviously - but I am happy the cheesecake aspects of the character have disappeared.

I also think there's a difference between simply showing skin and being framed as cheesecake, but I'll let someone else take up that argument if they so choose.

Well, I meant the description of naked werecat in a somewhat humorous fashion.

[Nyssane]

It bothers me that only one kind of woman is deemed capable; or even acceptable. The modest kind. Meanwhile I see skin tight yoga pants with illusion mesh on women of all ages in public everywhere I go. So those women who like wearing high heels, short skirts, halter tops, crop tops, skin tight jeans or booty shorts deserve no kind of recognition. They don't exist in comic books, simply because the "male gaze" might enjoy it too much and the world will come to an end.

I'd like to add to it that I don't think the intention behind the gold bra was to tantalize a straight male gaze. It's not very sexualized as it almost completely covers her cleavage (a rarity for comic book supervillains). If anything, I'd say it appeals more to a gay male audience with its camp and fantasy ridiculousness.

Aztec headdresses reach for the sky, Egyptians are close to the head barring other types of ornamentation such as a crown or asp.

Oh, I'm not denying that there's definitely Egyptian influences (especially with the names Clea and Ptra being a nod to a very famous Egyptian). But she wasn't exclusively influenced by Egyptian culture, and Marston and Peter were smart for having Venturia be a sort of hodgepodge of Mesoamerican, Egyptian, European, and other cultures to make it its own thing.