Spider-Man 54 Discussion

[Jman27]

Another issue where nothing really happened. Halfway through the issue, the seeds for something other than OMD were laid which would be really disappointing. This was up there with the most gruesome and brutal issues of ASM I have ever read, but the brutality didn't connect with me emotionally. Peter didn't kill Flash, Harry's father did. Peter didn't kill MJ. Peter didn't kill Gwen. Harry's father did. So I didn't quite get what Kindred was getting at.

But again, no reveal to how Harry became Kindred, no OMD reveals, no MJ... the story continued to unravel this issue. Spence can still stick the landing.

how did you miss Peter screaming NOOOOOO at the last page

[federicodettofred]

I really like this arc, but I get why people are disappointed. This kinda feels dragged and slow. Still, it's now clear that the crucial point is acknowledging One More Day for Peter to face the consequences. Will MJ get killed for Peter to be resurrected? It would be interesting. Will Norman interfere?
P.S. I don't get the point for the cover. It's so generic. Fear of spoilers?

[Frontier]

Flash looked too much like Ultimate Flash. Which is weird because Bagley has drown a more "classic" looking normal Flash before.

Harry ain't a joke anymore he is way above Peter in terms of strength and abilities. I think we all know where this is leading to Harry is going to be like ever since you have been Spider-man our lives has been affected which is true. So he might be like stay away from us or bad shit will continue to happen to them. Also Mj really changed clothes in between her rescue from Norman? Ok you do you.

I don't know if Bagley got bad references for her outfit in LR (I think the jacket, black color, and belt were similar, yet not the same) or if they were going for a Gwen nod with MJ in a dress with a short skirt + green jacket + black boots.

[scouse mouse]

This really is getting dragged out now, there was absolutely no reason for this to take up a whole issue, it was a couple of pages of story tops. I do enjoy Spencer's writing but it's very obvious that he has a problem with pacing and decompression that negatively affects his big stories. He did the same thing with Hunted, dragging the story out unnecessarily.

[your_name_here]

There’s a tricky line on this ark in terms of pacing.

Step over on one side, and you’re brushing over how much of a big threat Kindred is. These “deaths” or dreams aren’t as horrifying as they need to be, and we really don’t get to see how much this is breaking Peter in a way we haven’t seen before.

Step on the other, and we have decompression and the plot doesn’t move forward at all.

This issue seemed to walk the line pretty okay, in my opinion. 52 was probably the worst for decompression.

But I get why Spencer is doing it this way.

[RyanParkerMan]

how did you miss Peter screaming NOOOOOO at the last page

I didn't miss it. I don't qualify Peter screaming no at a frame of MJ as her being in the book.

[Knightmare10880]

While I enjoyed this issue and feel that it was less decompressed than the last two issues, I totally get why a lot of people feel the way that they do regarding it.

I really think that these three issues back in the day could have been done as one in terms of the story that they told. I also think that if I was reading this in a complete collection with both all the regular and the .LR issues in order then it'd flow better but it's lacking as a solo issue.

[PCN24454]

Another issue where nothing really happened. Halfway through the issue, the seeds for something other than OMD were laid which would be really disappointing. This was up there with the most gruesome and brutal issues of ASM I have ever read, but the brutality didn't connect with me emotionally. Peter didn't kill Flash, Harry's father did. Peter didn't kill MJ. Peter didn't kill Gwen. Harry's father did. So I didn't quite get what Kindred was getting at.

But again, no reveal to how Harry became Kindred, no OMD reveals, no MJ... the story continued to unravel this issue. Spence can still stick the landing.

Wasn't it established in-issue that Peter made a deal with the devil?

[RyanParkerMan]

Wasn't it established in-issue that Peter made a deal with the devil?

The devil Harry was alluding to was his father in Ravencroft or Harry himself when Peter exchanged his life in exchange for Kindred releasing the Order of the Web and saving Miles. When Harry said that, he actually created a very crappy backdoor out of this being about OMD. I don't think Spencer is going there. All along, I've suspected this story will set up THE OMD story down the road.

[Lukmendes]

you want another retcon? lets not be DC

We're already DC after OMD, even more so after Hickman's Secret Wars.

Anyways, it seems this contains the "brutal battle" that ASM#53 was advertised to have too, wonder if Death will take not of Peter dying so much in a short span of time, 'cause he died like 9 times here, it's 1/3 of Ben's death's when Jackal was killing him .

Peter saying "I don't believe it. I won't believe it." made me think of 90's X-Men Cyclops, who has a similar line:

https://youtu.be/KY9ig7zZtbU?t=186

Also funny that Harry basically says "I didn't do anything Peter, I just brought Sin Eater back and ordered him what to do, it's your fault bro" lol.

Anyways, this, was better than ASM#52, but uh, yeah, not much of a compliment... Bad pacing, story is close to manga level of slow pacing, again, and while there's maybe an interesting story here, this writing style of "Something cool is gonna happen eventually" can eat a dick, just obnoxious for an issue to do little more than setting up another one, and that's all this one is after the Peter and Kindred fight, if I wanted to put up with that I'd be reading bad Hickman issues.

[Vortex85]

The devil Harry was alluding to was his father in Ravencroft or Harry himself when Peter exchanged his life in exchange for Kindred releasing the Order of the Web and saving Miles. When Harry said that, he actually created a very crappy backdoor out of this being about OMD. I don't think Spencer is going there. All along, I've suspected this story will set up THE OMD story down the road.

So I don't know if I understand what you mean about a "backdoor" being opened to not be about OMD when Harry said that. The thing that struck me when he said that was, hm, if Harry is mentioning a "deal with the devil" so casually in front of Peter, it doesn't see like the thing he wants Peter to confess about if he is supposed to be keeping it something he wants Peter to figure out. A little too on the nose to mention a deal with the devil about himself ignoring the obvious deal with the devil with Mephisto. So that was my concern... it makes it seem a little redundant to want him to confess to making a deal with the devil if he already blamed him for making a deal with the devil.

In what way did you see it as "opening a backdoor" as in what alternative explanation did it open? What else do you think Harry might be referring to for Peter to confess to besides the deal?

[The Twilight Mexican]

The devil Harry was alluding to was his father in Ravencroft or Harry himself when Peter exchanged his life in exchange for Kindred releasing the Order of the Web and saving Miles. When Harry said that, he actually created a very crappy backdoor out of this being about OMD. I don't think Spencer is going there. All along, I've suspected this story will set up THE OMD story down the road.

The bolded emphasis on "You tried to bargain. Make a deal with the devil" immediately followed by that "The same mistakes" comment, along with all the commentary about Pete arrogantly making big decisions for everyone else ... That tells me that Harry is definitely talking about OMD. My biggest beef with OMD all these years -- over and above even the awful writing from conception to execution; even over and above what it did with Pete and MJ's marriage -- is that it marked the moment Peter Parker/Spider-Man failed.

Responsibility is supposed to be his thing. Over and over, it has been drilled into the stories all these years. That's been his big thing since the very first issue with the character. And yet, when it came time for him to accept the unintended consequences of his decisions, he chose to let a sadistic demon alter reality, affecting an untold number of other people's lives in an untold number of ways -- just so that he wouldn't have to face responsibility!

Thematically, OMD was the most important moment in the character's history since the death of Uncle Ben. Maybe even more than the death of Gwen Stacy was. And when that moment of truth came, Pete failed the test.

So, yeah, to me, everything Kindred is saying -- every drawn-out issue, every drawn-out page, every drawn-out panel or word balloon ... it's all channeling the frustration of someone who loves Spidey and felt let down by what OMD had him do. OMD was the reason I stopped reading Marvel Comics for several years, and the reason I still meander back and forth on whether I even care to read new issues of Spidey. I have to have good stories recommended to me and be convinced that they're worth my time.

That editorial decision by Joe Quesada is the single biggest blight on the history of Marvel. The berating being laid upon him and the torture Pete has been undergoing in these past few issues, as gruesome as it is to see, is somewhat cathartic for a fan of the character who has never recovered from the disappointment of OMD.

Maybe I'm building myself up to another disappointment in being so certain this is about OMD, but I don't believe so. This has got to be it: the moment Pete acknowledges responsibility for his damaging choices and again strives to be the best version of himself.

[Kingkalamari]

Another issue where nothing really happened. Halfway through the issue, the seeds for something other than OMD were laid which would be really disappointing. This was up there with the most gruesome and brutal issues of ASM I have ever read, but the brutality didn't connect with me emotionally. Peter didn't kill Flash, Harry's father did. Peter didn't kill MJ. Peter didn't kill Gwen. Harry's father did. So I didn't quite get what Kindred was getting at.

But again, no reveal to how Harry became Kindred, no OMD reveals, no MJ... the story continued to unravel this issue. Spence can still stick the landing.

Flash died saving Normie which like, Harry could've prevented but he decided to keep his demonic power on the d/l then, it's more Harry's fault than anyone if he's trying to play the indirect fault card on Parker, which hes starting to sound like Jigsaw from the Saw franchise here absolving any guilt in anything, but hey that's why ya dont trust demons, especially ones that wear halloween masks

[Knightmare10880]

The bolded emphasis on "You tried to bargain. Make a deal with the devil" immediately followed by that "The same mistakes" comment, along with all the commentary about Pete arrogantly making big decisions for everyone else ... That tells me that Harry is definitely talking about OMD. My biggest beef with OMD all these years -- over and above even the awful writing from conception to execution; even over and above what it did with Pete and MJ's marriage -- is that it marked the moment Peter Parker/Spider-Man failed.

Responsibility is supposed to be his thing. Over and over, it has been drilled into the stories all these years. That's been his big thing since the very first issue with the character. And yet, when it came time for him to accept the unintended consequences of his decisions, he chose to let a sadistic demon alter reality, affecting an untold number of other people's lives in an untold number of ways -- just so that he wouldn't have to face responsibility!

Thematically, OMD was the most important moment in the character's history since the death of Uncle Ben. Maybe even more than the death of Gwen Stacy was. And when that moment of truth came, Pete failed the test.

So, yeah, to me, everything Kindred is saying -- every drawn-out issue, every drawn-out page, every drawn-out panel or word balloon ... it's all channeling the frustration of someone who loves Spidey and felt let down by what OMD had him do. OMD was the reason I stopped reading Marvel Comics for several years, and the reason I still meander back and forth on whether I even care to read new issues of Spidey. I have to have good stories recommended to me and be convinced that they're worth my time.

That editorial decision by Joe Quesada is the single biggest blight on the history of Marvel. The berating being laid upon him and the torture Pete has been undergoing in these past few issues, as gruesome as it is to see, is somewhat cathartic for a fan of the character who has never recovered from the disappointment of OMD.

Maybe I'm building myself up to another disappointment in being so certain this is about OMD, but I don't believe so. This has got to be it: the moment Pete acknowledges responsibility for his damaging choices and again strives to be the best version of himself.

I agree with you 100% on that OMD was a test, Peter was facing the next step of life, having to say "good-bye" to his parental figure and he couldn't due it. It's part of his growth as a human being, growing up, getting married, having kids and sadly saying good bye to our older relatives it's just part of life. And sadly Peter couldn't handle the idea of letting go of Aunt May since he already "failed" Uncle Ben.

[Frontier]

So is MJ at the end supposed to be evoking Gwen, outfit-wise?