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  1. #46
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    The Phantom Stranger, Dr. Fate, and The Spectre just pack too much mystic muscle for any one reality.

  2. #47
    Astonishing Member mathew101281's Avatar
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    A lot of you think being by isolated would help certain characters, but I think Earth Two has shown that not to be the case. Powergirl and other earth two characters I feel are way less prominent now then they were when they were on the main earth. I feel the main earth is always going to get the most attension. Deliberately putting your hero on an alternate earth is a recipe for obscurity not growth. Legion of superheroes has a similar problem even though itís on the main earth but in the future.
    Last edited by mathew101281; 01-22-2021 at 02:56 PM.

  3. #48
    Astonishing Member SecretWarrior's Avatar
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    Batman benefits from a shared universe, since the pre-existing/surrounding sci fi and magic elements justify some of his villains, like Mr. Freeze and Ra's al Ghul. The advanced tech in the Bat mythology is more credible when you consider that their Earth has had contact with aliens for at least 3 millennia. The idea of a Lazarus Pit also avoids jumping the shark because of extradimensional magic beings popping up in parts.

    You're more likely to see a comic-accurate Mr. Freeze or Poison Ivy on screen if Superman's ship was studied by scientists in the same universe 20 years prior, for example. Something like that explains the technological leaps in the Batman space.

    Superman also benefits, as evidenced by how many superheroes cameo in his shows versus Batman's. Superman is a very straightforward character who needs good foils to show his dimensions, not unlike Steve Rogers and the Avengers. Also, having access to other rogues helps, since Superman's rogues mostly seem to be other versions of Superman (Zod, Hank Henshaw, the Eradicator, Bizarro, Superboy Prime, etc.)
    Last edited by SecretWarrior; 01-22-2021 at 03:38 PM.

  4. #49
    Astonishing Member SecretWarrior's Avatar
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    Flying bricks will all have their powers standardized by Superman, unless creators emphasize the non-flying brick elements, like how the DCAU really only had Martian Manhunter do psychic stuff, shapeshifting, flying, and phasing, with the occasional power punch.

    All perfect, noble characters with no personality flaws who spread peace will be pre-empted by messianic Superman.

    A character's personality traits can set them apart sufficiently to be interesting in a shared universe though, since compelling stories aren't mainly about powers--something Marvel seems to understand more than DC. The idea of Captain Atom being a government agent as dangerous as Superman with more of a military mindset sets him apart enough to be interesting. The shared universe brings him more exposure and access to more villains.

    Knowing Captain Atom would lose to Superman more often than he wins doesn't make him less interesting--it makes him more so, since he's the underdog. It's like how when Baloo fights Shere Khan, you and Baloo know Baloo is going to lose, but Baloo's still compelling because he faces the challenge anyway.
    Last edited by SecretWarrior; 01-22-2021 at 03:11 PM.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by SecretWarrior View Post
    Batman benefits from a shared universe, since the pre-existing/surrounding sci fi and magic elements justify some of his villains, like Mr. Freeze and Ra's al Ghul. The advanced tech in the Bat mythology is more credible when you consider that their Earth has had contact with aliens for at least 3 millennia. The idea of a Lazarus Pit also avoids jumping the shark because of extradimensional magic beings popping up in parts.

    You're more likely to see a comic-accurate Mr. Freeze or Poison Ivy on screen if Superman's ship was studied by scientists in the same universe 20 years prior, for example. Something like that explains the technological leaps in the Batman space.
    But Batman had those types of stories even before the shared universe. Having the explanation constantly be Kryptonian science makes the universe feel smaller rather than larger.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathew101281 View Post
    A lot of you think being by isolated would help certain characters, but I think Earth Two has shown that not to be the case. Powergirl and other earth two characters I feel are way less prominent now then they were when they were on the main earth. I feel the main earth is always going to get the most attension. Deliberately putting your hero on an alternate earth is a recipe for obscurity not growth. Legion of superheroes has a similar problem even though it’s on the main earth but in the future.
    What about Danny Phantom, Ben 10, the Power Rangers, etc?

  7. #52
    Astonishing Member SecretWarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    But Batman had those types of stories even before the shared universe. Having the explanation constantly be Kryptonian science makes the universe feel smaller rather than larger.
    I disagree-- And Kryptonian tech is one possible explanation stemming from many in-place sci fi elements. Heck, you could explain Poison Ivy's unique plants with Katar and Shayera landing in Egypt 2 millennia prior. Clay Face could exist because of discoveries made at Star Labs. Etc. Without sci fi explanations like this, you've got Nolan Batman, and that can only go so far.

    The sensibilities of 1940s storytelling and modern storytelling are different. When your audience is pretty much only 10 year old boys, you get away with a lot more than you can when adults become a serious part of the demographic too (PG-13 movies, for example).

  8. #53
    Incredible Member MarFarr's Avatar
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    all characters are better outside the shared universe. I always found it that it limits them. What occurs in the shared universe tends to effect the rest and putting limits to these characters.

  9. #54
    Astonishing Member SecretWarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarFarr View Post
    all characters are better outside the shared universe. I always found it that it limits them. What occurs in the shared universe tends to effect the rest and putting limits to these characters.
    Superman stories are also generally limited by prior Superman stories.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by SecretWarrior View Post
    I disagree-- And Kryptonian tech is one possible explanation stemming from many in-place sci fi elements. Heck, you could explain Poison Ivy's unique plants with Katar and Shayera landing in Egypt 2 millennia prior. Clay Face could exist because of discoveries made at Star Labs. Etc. Without sci fi explanations like this, you've got Nolan Batman, and that can only go so far.

    The sensibilities of 1940s storytelling and modern storytelling are different. When your audience is pretty much only 10 year old boys, you get away with a lot more than you can when adults become a serious part of the demographic too (PG-13 movies, for example).
    None of the incarnations of the DC universe draw any connection between Mr Freeze's technology and any advanced machinery from the rest of the DCU. Audiences are more than capable of accepting that this kind of technology just exists in the setting without any particular wider explanation because that's how superhero universes, contained or shared, work. Advanced technology has existed in Batman's corner of the universe for decades without needing to be tied to any place else.

    Quote Originally Posted by SecretWarrior View Post
    Superman stories are also generally limited by prior Superman stories.
    Better to be limited by what happens in your own story than what happens in someone else's.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 01-22-2021 at 06:30 PM.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by SecretWarrior View Post

    Superman also benefits, as evidenced by how many superheroes cameo in his shows versus Batman's.
    Batman has had just as many, if not more heroes, cameoing in his shows.

    Superman is a very straightforward character who needs good foils to show his dimensions, not unlike Steve Rogers and the Avengers.
    Those foils can be presented by characters within his own universe such as Lois Lane, Conner Kent and Power Girl.

    Also, having access to other rogues helps, since Superman's rogues mostly seem to be other versions of Superman (Zod, Hank Henshaw, the Eradicator, Bizarro, Superboy Prime, etc.)
    Um, have you actually looked at Superman's rogues gallery? Most of them are not just versions of him. Mongul, Luthor, Doomsday, Metallo, Conduit, Toyman, Livewire, Maxima, Brainiac, Parasite, Neutron, Atomic Skull, the Elite etc.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by SecretWarrior View Post
    Flying bricks will all have their powers standardized by Superman, unless creators emphasize the non-flying brick elements, like how the DCAU really only had Martian Manhunter do psychic stuff, shapeshifting, flying, and phasing, with the occasional power punch.

    All perfect, noble characters with no personality flaws who spread peace will be pre-empted by messianic Superman.

    A character's personality traits can set them apart sufficiently to be interesting in a shared universe though, since compelling stories aren't mainly about powers--something Marvel seems to understand more than DC. The idea of Captain Atom being a government agent as dangerous as Superman with more of a military mindset sets him apart enough to be interesting. The shared universe brings him more exposure and access to more villains.

    Knowing Captain Atom would lose to Superman more often than he wins doesn't make him less interesting--it makes him more so, since he's the underdog. It's like how when Baloo fights Shere Khan, you and Baloo know Baloo is going to lose, but Baloo's still compelling because he faces the challenge anyway.
    Again, none of this (with the exception of Captain Atom fighting Superman) requires him to be in the same universe as Superman. It's like saying all shonen protagonists need to be in the same universe as Dragon Ball Z because so many of them draw inspiration from Goku. Captain Atom's differences from Superman can be emphasized in a self-contained universe without the two of them needing to exist in the same setting. A lack of villains and supporting characters is a problem of the writers not the character. Your analogy with Baloo and Shere Khan doesn't work because those two were created as part of the same setting by the same writer. We aren't talking about, say, Shere Khan fighting White Fang.

  13. #58
    Astonishing Member SecretWarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Again, none of this (with the exception of Captain Atom fighting Superman) requires him to be in the same universe as Superman. It's like saying all shonen protagonists need to be in the same universe as Dragon Ball Z because so many of them draw inspiration from Goku. Captain Atom's differences from Superman can be emphasized in a self-contained universe without the two of them needing to exist in the same setting. A lack of villains and supporting characters is a problem of the writers not the character. Your analogy with Baloo and Shere Khan doesn't work because those two were created as part of the same setting by the same writer. We aren't talking about, say, Shere Khan fighting White Fang.
    They exist in a shared universe regardless, so I think the analogy works. And writers repeatedly demonstrate that it's easier to use existing villains than new ones. You can also create a clearer foil situation when two characters can actually interact with each other.

  14. #59
    Astonishing Member SecretWarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Batman has had just as many, if not more heroes, cameoing in his shows.



    Those foils can be presented by characters within his own universe such as Lois Lane, Conner Kent and Power Girl.



    Um, have you actually looked at Superman's rogues gallery? Most of them are not just versions of him. Mongul, Luthor, Doomsday, Metallo, Conduit, Toyman, Livewire, Maxima, Brainiac, Parasite, Neutron, Atomic Skull, the Elite etc.
    Besides maybe Flash, how many rogues galleries have villains with not only the same powerset but different versions of the same logo, lol?

    Superman's supporting cast aren't good foils because they're not in the same position as Big Blue. They help with exposition and humor, but it's not the same contrast as someone similarly situated.

    Re: shows, I was only thinking of DCAU and Smallville. Batman BATB was a cameo show. DCAU alone though, Superman had more superhero guest stars.

  15. #60
    Astonishing Member SecretWarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    None of the incarnations of the DC universe draw any connection between Mr Freeze's technology and any advanced machinery from the rest of the DCU. Audiences are more than capable of accepting that this kind of technology just exists in the setting without any particular wider explanation because that's how superhero universes, contained or shared, work. Advanced technology has existed in Batman's corner of the universe for decades without needing to be tied to any place else.



    Better to be limited by what happens in your own story than what happens in someone else's.
    The MCU works because they slowly built up the weirder elements that differ from our reality. Unless you're looking for camp, I don't see how a Nolan-ized world pops out a freeze gun. Even the Iron Man films didn't do that, and in the comics he fights the Blizzard.

    Superman isn't real, so it's not his story. It's the story of whoever writes the character at the time. A writer can start plot threads in Superman and end them in Flash if she hops from one book to another--Bendis does this all the time. Even if you just had Superman stories contained to Superman books with no input from other books or mythologies, you still have generally multiple writers who have to respect each other's stories. Are you only buying Siegel and Shuster trades?
    Last edited by SecretWarrior; 01-22-2021 at 07:42 PM.

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