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  1. #61
    Astonishing Member SecretWarrior's Avatar
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    People are complaining about their favorite characters being second fiddles, when many of those characters would be completely forgotten over the course of 80 years if not for a shared universe. DC has bought properties from failed companies in order to build a more robust universe of IP.

    If you're really against classism in comics, stop supporting ideas like a "Trinity," making everyone else second fiddles.
    Last edited by SecretWarrior; 01-22-2021 at 07:48 PM.

  2. #62
    Extraordinary Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathew101281 View Post
    A lot of you think being by isolated would help certain characters, but I think Earth Two has shown that not to be the case. Powergirl and other earth two characters I feel are way less prominent now then they were when they were on the main earth. I feel the main earth is always going to get the most attension. Deliberately putting your hero on an alternate earth is a recipe for obscurity not growth. Legion of superheroes has a similar problem even though itís on the main earth but in the future.
    I feel this way too, especially with respect to Power Girl. The more characters we put them against, the more options we have to refine them with. I prefer a clutter Earth if I'm being honest.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by SecretWarrior View Post
    They exist in a shared universe regardless, so I think the analogy works. And writers repeatedly demonstrate that it's easier to use existing villains than new ones.
    Doesn't do much good for the hero's rogues gallery if they're mostly using cast offs. There is a reason Spider-Man's rogues gallery is more popular than, say, She-Hulk's whose had largely borrowed villains in one of her defining runs.


    You can also create a clearer foil situation when two characters can actually interact with each other.
    Again, that is what supporting cast is for.

    Quote Originally Posted by SecretWarrior View Post
    Besides maybe Flash, how many rogues galleries have villains with not only the same powerset but different versions of the same logo, lol?
    Iron Man, Hulk, Spider-Man and Captain America. That's just off the top of my head. Evil clones of the hero are a staple of the superhero genre and anyway you're shifting the goal posts. Those types of villains do not make up the majority of Superman's villains.

    Superman's supporting cast aren't good foils because they're not in the same position as Big Blue.
    Yes, they are good foils. Arguably better than ones than a character created completely separate from Superman. It's like saying Xena is a better foil for Buffy than Faith.

    They help with exposition and humor, but it's not the same contrast as someone similarly situated.
    Lex Luthor and Lois Lane have been doing this for decades.

    Re: shows, I was only thinking of DCAU and Smallville. Batman BATB was a cameo show. DCAU alone though, Superman had more superhero guest stars.
    If you go past that, you have The Batman which had not only Superman but Green Arrow, Hawkman, Martian Manhunter, the Flash and Green Lantern. Beware The Batman had Katana, Metamorpho and a pre-Mr Terrific Michael Holt.

    If a hero needs to rely on guest stars to serve as an interesting contrast, the writers are doing something wrong.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 01-23-2021 at 06:01 AM.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by SecretWarrior View Post
    The MCU works because they slowly built up the weirder elements that differ from our reality.
    The MCU greatly downplays the weirdness of the comics. For the films anyway.


    Unless you're looking for camp, I don't see how a Nolan-ized world pops out a freeze gun.
    Firstly, who says it has to be a Nolanized world to be self-contained? Secondly, Nolan's movies featured a microwave emitter that evaporated water and a guy that could punch concrete because he was high on drugs.

    Even the Iron Man films didn't do that, and in the comics he fights the Blizzard.
    The Iron Man films didn't do that because they weren't interested in Blizzard.

    Superman isn't real, so it's not his story. It's the story of whoever writes the character at the time.
    On this we can agree on.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 01-23-2021 at 06:09 AM.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by SecretWarrior View Post
    People are complaining about their favorite characters being second fiddles, when many of those characters would be completely forgotten over the course of 80 years if not for a shared universe. DC has bought properties from failed companies in order to build a more robust universe of IP.

    If you're really against classism in comics, stop supporting ideas like a "Trinity," making everyone else second fiddles.
    Tell me, where is Captain Atom's movie or t.v. show? How many times has Shazam had his own solo media adaptations compared to Superman, Batman or even Wonder Woman? How many times has hic comic been cancelled? Did Ted Kord not end up being brutally murdered by Maxwell Lord after spending decades being treated like a joke? How well did being in the same universe as the DC characters work out for the Wild Storm and Milestone characters?

    A shared universe harms characters as much as it hurts them. Arguably moreso the latter.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 01-23-2021 at 06:15 AM.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by SecretWarrior View Post
    The MCU works because they slowly built up the weirder elements that differ from our reality. Unless you're looking for camp, I don't see how a Nolan-ized world pops out a freeze gun. Even the Iron Man films didn't do that, and in the comics he fights the Blizzard.

    Superman isn't real, so it's not his story. It's the story of whoever writes the character at the time. A writer can start plot threads in Superman and end them in Flash if she hops from one book to another--Bendis does this all the time. Even if you just had Superman stories contained to Superman books with no input from other books or mythologies, you still have generally multiple writers who have to respect each other's stories. Are you only buying Siegel and Shuster trades?
    This was something on which I though Fox, Kubert and their successors really dropped the ball. It made no sense for Hawkman and Hawkgirl to study US law enforcement, unless that was a cover and they were actually trying to track down Thanagarian tech Byth brought with him. They could have claimed Byth was on Earth for years before the Hawks found him, and his tech was the source of all manner of Silver Age gizmos.

  7. #67
    Astonishing Member SecretWarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Tell me, where is Captain Atom's movie or t.v. show? How many times has Shazam had his own solo media adaptations compared to Superman, Batman or even Wonder Woman? How many times has hic comic been cancelled? Did Ted Kord not end up being brutally murdered by Maxwell Lord after spending decades being treated like a joke? How well did being in the same universe as the DC characters work out for the Wild Storm and Milestone characters?

    A shared universe harms characters as much as it hurts them. Arguably moreso the latter.
    Without a shared universe, literally all you would get is Batman and Superman. Just look at what WB was interested in before the MCU came along. Wonder Woman is only propped up because someone thought there should be a Trinity. Captain Atom couldn't compete when he had a separate universe, and Shazam was defeated in the courts because he was in a separate company's universe. Wildstorm and Milestone also failed to compete, and not even Static would be known if not for the DCAU. Do you think many grandparents know Spawn, Aspen Matthews, and X-O Manowar? Are many buying their grandkids toys of those characters?
    Last edited by SecretWarrior; 01-23-2021 at 08:21 AM.

  8. #68
    Astonishing Member SecretWarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Doesn't do much good for the hero's rogues gallery if they're mostly using cast offs. There is a reason Spider-Man's rogues gallery is more popular than, say, She-Hulk's whose had largely borrowed villains in one of her defining runs.




    Again, that is what supporting cast is for.



    Iron Man, Hulk, Spider-Man and Captain America. That's just off the top of my head. Evil clones of the hero are a staple of the superhero genre and anyway you're shifting the goal posts. Those types of villains do not make up the majority of Superman's villains.



    Yes, they are good foils. Arguably better than ones than a character created completely separate from Superman. It's like saying Xena is a better foil for Buffy than Faith.



    Lex Luthor and Lois Lane have been doing this for decades.



    If you go past that, you have The Batman which had not only Superman but Green Arrow, Hawkman, Martian Manhunter, the Flash and Green Lantern. Beware The Batman had Katana, Metamorpho and a pre-Mr Terrific Michael Holt.

    If a hero needs to rely on guest stars to serve as an interesting contrast, the writers are doing something wrong.
    So instead of using other preexisting superheroes as a supporting cast, writers should make up new ones exclusive to Superman stories? Isn't that what the suoer family is?

    If people found Jimmy Olsen interesting, he'd still have his own book like the characters in the Justice League. Also, his supporting cast at the Planet have no powers so they are not similarly situated. You need someone in the same position making different choices to really know what Clark stands for beyond shallow talk.

    Different characters have different personalities and therefore different storytelling needs. Captain America was never written as a solo hero in the MCU. He went from the Howling Commandos to the Avengers to the Secret Avengers. That's because his personality is based on leadership, so he needs people to lead, unlike Lancer Iron Man, Big Guy Thor, Chick Black Widow, or Smart Guy Hulk. Superman has the same personality as Cap and is meant to lead humanity to a brighter tomorrow. He's not doing that as a solo act.
    Last edited by SecretWarrior; 01-23-2021 at 08:18 AM.

  9. #69
    Astonishing Member SecretWarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    The MCU greatly downplays the weirdness of the comics. For the films anyway.



    Firstly, who says it has to be a Nolanized world to be self-contained? Secondly, Nolan's movies featured a microwave emitter that evaporated water and a guy that could punch concrete because he was high on drugs.



    The Iron Man films didn't do that because they weren't interested in Blizzard.



    On this we can agree on.
    Good. They should downplay it instead of being 60s campy or 90s campy. If your story is set on Earth then it should look and act like it is.

    A microwave emitter is more plausible than a freeze gun, as is his glider cape.
    Last edited by SecretWarrior; 01-23-2021 at 08:17 AM.

  10. #70
    Astonishing Member SecretWarrior's Avatar
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    Powers and mythology are not enough to make a character stand out, as we've seen with characters from failed companies. They actually have to also stand out in terms of personality. Imagine if Thor and Black Widow had to have the same personality as Captain America because they're all supposed to be the same cardboard cutout rolemodels for lunchbox sets. Instead they're flawed and different people can relate to different characters.

    Spider-man and Batman aren't popular because they're strong or perfect.
    Last edited by SecretWarrior; 01-23-2021 at 08:44 AM.

  11. #71
    Astonishing Member mathew101281's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SecretWarrior View Post
    Powers and mythology are not enough to make a character stand out, as we've seen with characters from failed companies. They actually have to also stand out in terms of personality. Imagine if Thor and Black Widow had to have the same personality as Captain America because they're all supposed to be the same cardboard cutout rolemodels for lunchbox sets. Instead they're flawed and different people can relate to different characters.

    Spider-man and Batman aren't popular because they're strong or perfect.
    What characters from failed companies are you talking about? Iíve always been of the opinion that an interesting hero gimmick gets your attention, but itís really the villains and the world around your hero that keeps people coming back year after year.

  12. #72
    Extraordinary Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SecretWarrior View Post
    Powers and mythology are not enough to make a character stand out, as we've seen with characters from failed companies. They actually have to also stand out in terms of personality. Imagine if Thor and Black Widow had to have the same personality as Captain America because they're all supposed to be the same cardboard cutout rolemodels for lunchbox sets. Instead they're flawed and different people can relate to different characters.

    Spider-man and Batman aren't popular because they're strong or perfect.
    While well known for his MANY faults on this site, more casual movie/animated series fans have only ever seen Bat-God and what not.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by SecretWarrior View Post
    Powers and mythology are not enough to make a character stand out, as we've seen with characters from failed companies. They actually have to also stand out in terms of personality. Imagine if Thor and Black Widow had to have the same personality as Captain America because they're all supposed to be the same cardboard cutout rolemodels for lunchbox sets. Instead they're flawed and different people can relate to different characters.

    Spider-man and Batman aren't popular because they're strong or perfect.
    What does any of this have to do with the topic of this thread?

  14. #74
    Astonishing Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Avoiding Trinity shipping alone more than outweighs any benefits of keeping Wonder Woman in the same universe as Superman and Batman.

  15. #75
    Mighty Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Any DC character can work as part of their own universe. Most of these characters weren't built to be part of a shared universe.

    The only characters and teams I can see suffering from not being in a shared sand box would be Flash, Vixen, the Legion and the most of the magic users.

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