King in Black: Namor Mini-Series by Busiek, Dewey, Scharf !!!S P O I L E R S!!!

[Reviresco]

Has everyone had a chance to read KiB: Namor #3 yet? I wanted to know your thoughts of the latest comic and also what you all think of the series so far?

I personally loved it, I feel the creative team is knocking it out of the park. The artwork is stunning and the there is this one scene, a shift from younger Namor to older Namor that I really love. It really shows how present Namor is so worn down from all the years, a stark contrast to his younger self.




Also not going to lie when spoilers:

Ambrose died

end of spoilers I wished he had stayed even though I know he doesn't show up in adult Dorma's life. I just really enjoyed seeing everything about Dorma. I love her so much.

I did! Also loved it! Also I feel the same about your spoiler tag. Noooooooooo!

Also feel the same about Dorma. Love it, but it is so bittersweet.

I really liked the present scene. I was taking to a friend about it, and how we don't see this characterization of Namor in the main event, or other comics that will remain nameless here -- a king who thinks about his decisions and understands the cost.

I am enjoying the art, though sometimes I think the flash back / young Namor stuff might be a little too bright, at least in this issue.

[Reviresco]

FINALLY we get to see the variant cover for next issue, KiB #4 by Valerio Giangiordano. Man. It doesn't look good for our Teen Trio. Swim FASTER!!! O_O





From Valerio's twitter.

https://twitter.com/ValerioGiangio1/...827001345?s=20

[ImperiusWrecked]

I did! Also loved it! Also I feel the same about your spoiler tag. Noooooooooo!

Also feel the same about Dorma. Love it, but it is so bittersweet.

I really liked the present scene. I was taking to a friend about it, and how we don't see this characterization of Namor in the main event, or other comics that will remain nameless here -- a king who thinks about his decisions and understands the cost.

I am enjoying the art, though sometimes I think the flash back / young Namor stuff might be a little too bright, at least in this issue.

I feel the bright/light color of the past reflects Namor's memory of it, of everything seeming more colorful, more bright than it is now. AND YES! A lot of current comics (nameless of course but it has a certain fire chicken from space in it) never show Namor in the king role. One of my all time favorite Namor quotes is from sub-mariner (2007) #4 where Namor tells susan: You can spend your days being a hero but when you have a civilization to defend sometimes there is nothing but gray.

[ImperiusWrecked]

FINALLY we get to see the variant cover for next issue, KiB #4 by Valerio Giangiordano. Man. It doesn't look good for our Teen Trio. Swim FASTER!!! O_O





From Valerio's twitter.

https://twitter.com/ValerioGiangio1/...827001345?s=20

And he posted the inks!

[Reviresco]

Nice! I hope we also get a variant cover for the final issue.

I feel the bright/light color of the past reflects Namor's memory of it, of everything seeming more colorful, more bright than it is now. AND YES! A lot of current comics (nameless of course but it has a certain fire chicken from space in it) never show Namor in the king role. One of my all time favorite Namor quotes is from sub-mariner (2007) #4 where Namor tells susan: You can spend your days being a hero but when you have a civilization to defend sometimes there is nothing but gray.

Yes! One of my favorite quotes also. But what I liked about this was it showed Namor DOES care about the lives of people. The Namor I grew up with was far more like that. Sadly, this doesn't seem the view of many modern writers who portray him as a 'badass' ruthless king. That's why I did that Advent Calendar a couple of hears ago, that showed how heroic Namor was portrayed for decades.

That's a good point about the color. But things are definitely taking a dark turn at this point.

[ImperiusWrecked]

Nice! I hope we also get a variant cover for the final issue.




Yes! One of my favorite quotes also. But what I liked about this was it showed Namor DOES care about the lives of people. The Namor I grew up with was far more like that. Sadly, this doesn't seem the view of many modern writers who portray him as a 'badass' ruthless king. That's why I did that Advent Calendar a couple of hears ago, that showed how heroic Namor was portrayed for decades.

That's a good point about the color. But things are definitely taking a dark turn at this point.

The "Mad Sea King" trope writers use for Namor lately has been overused imo. This is why I'm enjoying Busiek's Namor so much, you see he isn't a raving mad lunatic, he is searching for a way to help, even if means confronting things from his past he might not want to because it was a rough time for him. We haven't seen a lot of older Namor but I think we might in the last two issues (ARGH! I want this series to go on for so much longer!). One of the covers had shown an older Attuma, Dorma, and Namor, I am hoping we get a chance to see the trio as their older past selves before the series is done!

[Reviresco]

The "Mad Sea King" trope writers use for Namor lately has been overused imo. This is why I'm enjoying Busiek's Namor so much, you see he isn't a raving mad lunatic, he is searching for a way to help, even if means confronting things from his past he might not want to because it was a rough time for him. We haven't seen a lot of older Namor but I think we might in the last two issues (ARGH! I want this series to go on for so much longer!). One of the covers had shown an older Attuma, Dorma, and Namor, I am hoping we get a chance to see the trio as their older past selves before the series is done!

Part of the problem, IMO, is what I call the Byrne Syndrome for Namor -- writers who feel a need to explain things that either do NOT need to be explained, or who mangle the motivations / characteristics they've assigned to the character. Too many seem to feel a need to explain why Namor is angry? Why he doesn't always make the "right" decision? Why is he so prickly? The answer is abundantly clear to me, as a biracial person, with a world view and interest in history, who has environmental concerns and it has nothing to do with oxygen balance.

I agree, that I think we'll see more of Jonas Scharf's older, modern Namor in the last issue. I'm curious is Marvel is going to follow up on Namor using what appears to be some sort of Elder God magic / creatures to battle the King in Black? I'd LOVE to see another mini-series with a Cthulu horror / high fantasy story line, since Marvel doesn't seem to be doing ongoings for many characters, where the Atlanteans, and maybe Doctor Strange, have to take care of this major mystical threat.

Relationships for the grown up versions of the trio, and Dorma is dead, that I doubt we'll see that. Though, Robinson did appear to try and team up Namor and Attuma in the beginning of the book that shall not be named. I'm surprised Attuma didn't get recruited for the Defenders of the Deep, actually.

Speaking of DoD ... there appear to be at least two characters there that could tie into the mini-series I described. Echinida and Blood Witch. It could also lead to the transformed Llyra, who I think is working for Set now.

[ImperiusWrecked]

Part of the problem, IMO, is what I call the Byrne Syndrome for Namor -- writers who feel a need to explain things that either do NOT need to be explained, or who mangle the motivations / characteristics they've assigned to the character. To many seem to feel a need to explain why Namor is angry? Why he doesn't always make the "right" decision? Why is he so prickly? The answer is abundantly clear to me, as a biracial person, with a world view and interest in history, who has environmental concerns and it has nothing to do with oxygen balance.

I agree, that I think we'll see more of Jonas Scharf's older, modern Namor in the last issue. I'm curious is Marvel is going to follow up on Namor using what appears to be some sort of Elder God magic / creatures to battle the King in Black? I'd LOVE to see another mini-series with a Cthulu horror / high fantasy story line, since Marvel doesn't seem to be doing ongoings for many characters, where the Atlanteans, and maybe Doctor Strange, have to take care of this major mystical threat.

Relationship for the grown up versions of the trio, and Dorma is dead, that I doubt we'll see that. Though, Robinson did appear to try and team up Namor and Attuma in the beginning of the book that shall not be named. I'm surprised Attuma didn't get recruited for the Defenders of the Deep, actually.

Speaking of DoD ... there appear to be at least two characters there that could tie into the mini-series I described. Echinida and Blood Witch. It could also lead to the transformed Llyra, who I think is working for Set now.

I agree wholeheartedly with you. I don't understand why writers feel the need to explain why Namor is angry, isn't it enough that he sees his homeland, his people, and the oceans under constant attack? We don't need an "oxygen imbalance" explanation. Imo making Namor Bipolar was just an excuse for Byrne to sweep all of Namor's past "misdeeds unbecoming of a hero" under the rug so he could have a clean template to work with, this is further evidenced by the Trial of the Sub-Mariner issue, it's all an excuse to say "yeah Namor is "good" now because everything before wasn't his fault, he was crazy!". Namor was never "bad" before, he just didn't conform to the hero mold, he is an anti hero but not an anti hero in the sense of Punisher or Wolverine ready to kill at a moments notice, he is an anti hero because he takes in the whole picture and decides what's best for him and his people in the moment even if that doesn't align with what an ideal heroes morals/choices would be. Namor being angry about the state of the world or how he is treated is enough.*

This is why I'm enjoying KiB so much, you can see what Namor's motivations are so clearly, you can see his pain and uncertainty in the future. Busiek (and also Pak in the first issue of Atlantis Attacks 2020) portray current Namor as bone weary and tired but still fighting on because he has to. I love that interpretation of the character, he has been through a lot but he isn't giving up.

If Marvel ever goes the eldritch horror route with Namor facing creatures and elder gods of the deep I would be over the moon. That one little snippet in X-Force wasn't enough for me! lol. This is why I wish we would get another Defenders series if we can't get a stand alone Namor series, this kinda thing would be right up Namor's and Strange's alley!

Perhaps we will see Dorma, Namor, Attuma as adults before Dorma's death? That's what I'm hoping for even if it is just a page or so. I just want to see how Busiek writes an adult Dorma since I love how much life he's brought into the younger Dorma. Attuma being drafted for the Defenders of the Deep would have made more sense since the last we saw of Attuma was him and Namor trying to mend fences for the good of their world. Which was around the time of that comic that shall not be named! But I really can't recall if Attuma showed up anytime after that? Or if he did it probably was a small cameo and didn't register in my head.

Echidna and Blood Tide seem like they could be great characters to pick up the void of Namor's cast members who have been limboed or killed off. As you know we've talked about before, Namor really needs an updated main cast to help flesh out his world. I love that Andromeda is in the series too, she does not get enough love imo and I did actually squeal to see her (after my heart attack of thinking Busiek was bringing Dorma back LOL. I just saw "red hair, blue skin, standing next to Namor, and thought DORMA??? before seeing her outfit). The only way I would ever want Llyra back is a main villain, she really is the worst villain Namor's ever had and has done him the most personal harm. She is a great foil to Namor, and I think a good protagonist needs a an equally powerful antagonist.

*A little side note here generally speaking and not in anyway related to the KIB mini, but I wish that if Marvel really wanted to make Namor the villain they would stop tiptoeing around it and just do it. They rely too much on fake outs with possessions. Just make him the villain of the surface world, make him fight back against the surface to keep his world safe. Marvel constantly wants Namor to be a threat to the surface world but doesn't want to make their surface heroes look bad for fighting against Namor's very real concerns of making sure his people and the oceans survive. Aaron's Avengers #9 is the most recent example of this, showing Namor as being right for capturing the ones who hurt his people but then making the surface heroes come down because he is getting out of hand and they need to be sure justice is served their way, after their issues/actions are what caused countless of Atlantean deaths and lead to the deaths of the Atlantean Children. I think this is a reason why alot of writers struggle with Namor, he just doesn't fit into their surface world hero view that dominates Marvel Comics Universe, because having Namor go all out would be putting the surface heroes/surface world in a bad light. Surface heroes like the Avengers who constantly disregard Namor's valid concerns and grievances.

[Reviresco]

King in Black Namor #4 preview is up! Here's the butt kicking by the Black Tide I wanted to see ... just not against the Atlanteans!

[Reviresco]

From here:

https://monkeysfightingrobots.co/4-p...-namor-4-of-5/

[ImperiusWrecked]

This series is just so beautifully drawn! I wish we had this team on an ongoing. I can't wait for the issue of course, and it looks like Krang is leading the fight against the Black Tide. If what we saw in Black King #4 where Namor and Black Tide were involved is all that they'll be used for there then I say its a terrible waste of amazing characters, they are just want a Sub-Mariner story needs for ongoing potential antagonists or allies.

[Doombot]

On the topic of Namor being an anti-hero or even a straight up villain, I believe it's always been an issue of perspective. There has always been a conflict in comics between characters who are not American (or Western) and the American audience the story is being told to. I find there is a strange unwillingness on part of the creators to just tell stories from an outside perspective, as if somehow American readers will reject the story or the character because the perspective isn't American. You want to make Namor a SUPER-HERO, yet not only is he not American, but not even human. This happens with many characters, it's one of the reasons the Black Panther always has stories and adventures in the US when he's the king of secretive, isolationist, African nation for example. Another of the prickly issues with Namor vs Humans is that, for the most part, Namor is in the right. Humans, including the most heroic super-heroes, are entirely hypocritical when it comes to their behaviour and attitude towards the ocean and Atlantis. Humans bomb, dump on or poison Atlanteans, Namor decides to do something about it, and the entire super-hero community faces off with Namor telling him they will not tolerate his ****. They do this with a straight face every single time. If I were Namor I would go insane as well. The perspective issue is that Namor is a hero of ATLANTIS, he is fighting for HIS people, not of The USA or even of humanity at large. His motives stem from this view, not saving pedestrians in NYC. (although he's saved far more humans than humans have ever saved Atlanteans). Captain America, T'Challa and Tony Stark can all come directly into sovereign Atlantean waters and attack Namor directly, demanding him to stop doing X, meanwhile they give exactly zero shits when they drop an entire bloody Celestial on them, or threaten them with SHEILD fleets or constantly poison them, dump garbage or toxic waste or radioactive materials, to say nothing of devastating overfishing, trawling, long lines, and general ocean destruction.

Remember when Tony Stark had the balls to threaten Namor and all of Atlantis because they had spy cells around the world? Remember when he did this while running SHIELD and basically spying on the entire damn planet? I remember this. That's the kind of thing that would make me want to send a tidal wave at the surface too.

What do you do with a character like this? Make him a straight up villain? Or do you trust that your audience can handle a nuanced character whose views and experiences are outside of your own? I'd vote for the latter, but creators seem to not want to give readers this option. I'm not going to be upset if a hero I like does not represent me directly, I'm not even American myself and I love all the Marvel heroes fighting bad guys in NYC, etc. I think people could handle it. Humanity should be a reoccurring villain in Sub-Mariner stories. I mean, a massive part of Namor's personality stems from the fact he IS half human and the shadow that places over his life. How can he, the King of Atlantis, BE one of these dreadful surface people? They hate him, they care nothing about his people, they care nothing about the ocean, save what they can take from it, yet he IS one of them. All of this is no-brainer kind of stuff and still incredibly fascinating, yet we constantly get OH NO, CRAZY NAMOR, WE BETTER SEND IN CAP AND THE AVENGERS!

[ImperiusWrecked]

On the topic of Namor being an anti-hero or even a straight up villain, I believe it's always been an issue of perspective. There has always been a conflict in comics between characters who are not American (or Western) and the American audience the story is being told to. I find there is a strange unwillingness on part of the creators to just tell stories from an outside perspective, as if somehow American readers will reject the story or the character because the perspective isn't American. You want to make Namor a SUPER-HERO, yet not only is he not American, but not even human. This happens with many characters, it's one of the reasons the Black Panther always has stories and adventures in the US when he's the king of secretive, isolationist, African nation for example. Another of the prickly issues with Namor vs Humans is that, for the most part, Namor is in the right. Humans, including the most heroic super-heroes, are entirely hypocritical when it comes to their behaviour and attitude towards the ocean and Atlantis. Humans bomb, dump on or poison Atlanteans, Namor decides to do something about it, and the entire super-hero community faces off with Namor telling him they will not tolerate his ****. They do this with a straight face every single time. If I were Namor I would go insane as well. The perspective issue is that Namor is a hero of ATLANTIS, he is fighting for HIS people, not of The USA or even of humanity at large. His motives stem from this view, not saving pedestrians in NYC. (although he's saved far more humans than humans have ever saved Atlanteans). Captain America, T'Challa and Tony Stark can all come directly into sovereign Atlantean waters and attack Namor directly, demanding him to stop doing X, meanwhile they give exactly zero shits when the drop an entire bloody Celestial on them, or threaten them with SHEILD fleets or constantly poison them, dump garbage or toxic waste or radioactive materials, to say nothing of devastating overfishing, trawling, long lines, and general ocean destruction.

Remember when Tony Stark had the balls to threaten Namor and all of Atlantis because they had spy cells around the world? Remember when he did this while running SHIELD and basically spying on the entire damn planet? I remember this. That's the kind of thing that would make me want to send a tidal wave at the surface too.

What do you do with a character like this? Make him a straight up villain? Or do you trust that your audience can handle a nuanced character whose views and experiences are outside of your own? I'd vote for the latter, but creators seem to not want to give readers this option. I'm not going to be upset if a hero I like does not represent me directly, I'm not even American myself and I love all the Marvel heroes fighting bad guys in NYC, etc. I think people could handle it. Humanity should be a reoccurring villain in Sub-Mariner stories. I mean, a massive part of Namor's personality stems from the fact he IS half human and the shadow that places over his life. How can he, the King of Atlantis, BE one of these dreadful surface people? They hate him, they care nothing about his people, they care nothing about the ocean, save what they can take from it, yet he IS one of them. All of this is no-brainer kind of stuff and still incredibly fascinating, yet we constantly get OH NO, CRAZY NAMOR, WE BETTER SEND IN CAP AND THE AVENGERS!

Yes. Yes. Yes. ALL OF THIS! This is exactly what I rant about from time to time with my friends! Namor is a superhero but not a surface hero! It makes me insane to see how characters constantly treat Atlanteans like disposable characters, either they use Namor and the Atlanteans Army as some "Pulls out the Big Guns at the last moment of a fight to turn the tide" plot or they act like Atlantean life is worth less than surface human life. Namor is a protector! He is a force that his people need to survive, yet he is constantly disrespected and treated like trash. How many times has Namor asked people "Don't touch me" Or "Don't call me that" when they invade his personal space or call him names? It's always played off as a joke and they do it again, it angers him and he fights them. But take this from a royal perspective, one does not touch royalty without permission, so them doing this shows how little they think of him. Also everything else you said, also Tony's crimes against Atlanteans also include that time in X-Men Red when he was like "We should drop the bomb in the ocean" WHILE NAMOR WAS FLYING RIGHT NEXT TO HIM, WHILE NAMOR WAS THERE TO HELP THE HUMANS. It's also played off as a joke but it's totally within Tony's character to disregard Atlanteans in anything, he was willing to occupy their home waters and place them all under Shield (read American) occupation. Not even Steve is except from this behavior, he is constantly treating Namor like he knows better than him about how do deal with the Atlantean/Human tensions.

If we just had someone fully lean into Namor's POV, Namor's side and showcase how humans are the bad guys (In addition to other threats to Atlantis from in the sea) then I think it would make an amazing book!

One of my biggest gripes with Marvel is how they constantly pull the "Namor has amnesia" and "Namor is a mad sea king bc of reasons like blood imbalance or he is possessed". Like if they really want a villain!Namor then I say just do it. No mind control, no tricks, just have Namor be a terrifying force of Nature towards the humans who hurt him and his people. He has legitimate reasons for hating humans, he doesn't need any external force to make him stand up and say "Humankind is an Enemy of the Atlanteans" writers could do so much with this if they just took that chance, or were allowed to take that chance. I often feel Marvel loves to skirt the line with Namor, they want to use him as an antagonist but don't want to admit just how terrible the humans were to them because the humans always have to be right, Cap always has to be right, The Avengers are the good guys, Stark is the good guy. I'm just really tired of Marvel constantly disrespecting Namor and his place in Marvel Lore.

[Reviresco]

I don't have time to talk about everything right now, but I have to say,

spoilers:

AMBROSE!!!

end of spoilers


Continuing to love this series. Wondering how all this is going to finish up in ONE issue.

[ImperiusWrecked]

I don't have time to talk about everything right now, but I have to say,

spoilers:

AMBROSE!!!

end of spoilers


Continuing to love this series. Wondering how all this is going to finish up in ONE issue.

HE LIVES!!! He is a good fish! I'm just popping in real quick to say, this issue was great, and the cameo of Fen and Tha-korr was very cool. I love how Dorma is trying to use her magic and how powerful the black tide are! seriously this comic series has been hitting it out of the park with everyone's character designs. I made the mistake of thinking Attuma was wearing his father's skull but Busiek said it was the skull of a sea dragon! Which makes his dumb bunny ears from his first appearance so much cooler since its now a dragon skull.



I swear if we had this team on a ongoing Namor series it would be amazing!!! I know the last issue wont be out for a while but I still wish this wasn't a mini series, I really want to have an ongoing ):