Why Does DC Keep On Shunning Titans When It Comes To The Passing of Legacy?

[Badou]

Dick not becoming Batman in that Knightfall story and it being some new character in Azrael will always be one of the biggest missed opportunities in Dick's entire history. It could have been a hallmark story for Dick's character but it didn't happen and Azrael took that moment. I know Dick became Batman in that Prodigal Son story shortly after, but by then the moment had been missed and now no one really talks about Prodigal Son anymore and it is kind of an irrelevant/forgotten story, but Nightfall and Azrael still live on.

When you go back to that Knightfall story it happened during the landmark Batman issue #500. Which is an incredibly important milestone for the franchise. Instead of that issue being Dick finally taking up the Batman mantel to take on Bane who had defeated Bruce it was Azrael who took on the Batman mantel and defeated Bane instead. For the rest of time #500 could have been this iconic moment for Dick's character that would have lived on forever and might have then been retold across other media in cartoons, animated movies, and live action, but it didn't happen. I'll always kind of be a bit sad about what kind of opportunity was missed with it.

I've always wondered why didn't they have Dick become Batman in issue #500 as that would have felt like a much more important moment to tell in that kind of milestone issue, especially given that like a year later they had Dick become Batman in Prodigal Son anyway. Was Prodigal Son mainly a response to fans being upset that Dick didn't become Batman in Knightfall instead of Azrael? Dick taking down the villain who defeated Bruce just feels like a more logical storyline to use, but I dunno. I always wondered if Dixon and the creators at the time originally intended to have Dick as Batman or if Azrael was planned all along. Not sure if they ever discussed their plans anywhere. Maybe at that time they didn't think Bane would turn into such a memorable character and Azrael was the character they thought would be the memorable one?

[Timber Wolf-By-Night]

Dick not becoming Batman in that Knightfall story and it being some new character in Azrael will always be one of the biggest missed opportunities in Dick's entire history. It could have been a hallmark story for Dick's character but it didn't happen and Azrael took that moment. I know Dick became Batman in that Prodigal Son story shortly after, but by then the moment had been missed and now no one really talks about Prodigal Son anymore and it is kind of an irrelevant/forgotten story, but Nightfall and Azrael still live on.

When you go back to that Knightfall story it happened during the landmark Batman issue #500. Which is an incredibly important milestone for the franchise. Instead of that issue being Dick finally taking up the Batman mantel to take on Bane who had defeated Bruce it was Azrael who took on the Batman mantel and defeated Bane instead. For the rest of time #500 could have been this iconic moment for Dick's character that would have lived on forever and might have then been retold across other media in cartoons, animated movies, and live action, but it didn't happen. I'll always kind of be a bit sad about what kind of opportunity was missed with it.

I've always wondered why didn't they have Dick become Batman in issue #500 as that would have felt like a much more important moment to tell in that kind of milestone issue, especially given that like a year later they had Dick become Batman in Prodigal Son anyway. Was Prodigal Son mainly a response to fans being upset that Dick didn't become Batman in Knightfall instead of Azrael? Dick taking down the villain who defeated Bruce just feels like a more logical storyline to use, but I dunno. I always wondered if Dixon and the creators at the time originally intended to have Dick as Batman or if Azrael was planned all along. Not sure if they ever discussed their plans anywhere. Maybe at that time they didn't think Bane would turn into such a memorable character and Azrael was the character they thought would be the memorable one?

Then you've completely misunderstood the point of the Knightfall storyline and of Azrael becoming Batman.

Denny O'Neil had no intention whatsoever for Bruce Wayne to be permanently replaced by anybody as Batman. Azrael was not meant to be Batman forever, and neither would have been Dick Grayson. In fact, Grayson was mostly irrelevant to the overall story.

The Knightfall storyline, and Azrael becoming Batman, was meant as a response to all the fanmail they were still getting in the wake of Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns demanding that the Bat-office start portraying Batman as not just willing to kill, but actively killing, the criminals and super-villains he fought against. Obviously, O'Neil and co. disagreed with that vision of Batman, and whenever they published a letter from somebody demanding it, they would respectfully disagree with it. One time, they responded by following up the letter with letters written by little kids expressing their love for Batman.

But still, the demands for Batman to begin killing, and be shown as wanting to kill, criminals kept coming in.

So O'Neil and co. basically thought, "You want a Batman who kills? Who's excessively violent and vicious and is much more concerned with punishing criminals than he is with protecting the innocent and saving people's lives? Okay, we'll give you what you want. And we'll show you why it's a bad idea in the process."

That's why Jean-Paul Valley was introduced. They didn't feel they had an existing character in the Bat-mythos at that time whom they felt they could put on that kind of path without doing major harm to the character. Not Bruce, and certainly not Dick. But a brand-new character? One without an established history as a hero, or an existing fanbase who would be outraged at such a turn? That they could do the story with.

That's why they didn't have Dick Grayson become Batman in Knightfall. He was entirely the wrong character for the role in the story that they were planning on telling. At no point were they ever doing the kind of story you lament could have been done. They had no intention of doing "an iconic moment for Dick Grayson," as you describe it, because they were not telling a story about Dick Grayson. It was always going to circle back to Bruce Wayne reclaiming the mantle of Batman from Jean-Paul, because the story was about why Bruce's vow to never kill was always better than any fan-demands that he become DC's Punisher.

[Badou]

Then you've completely misunderstood the point of the Knightfall storyline and of Azrael becoming Batman.

Denny O'Neil had no intention whatsoever for Bruce Wayne to be permanently replaced by anybody as Batman. Azrael was not meant to be Batman forever, and neither would have been Dick Grayson. In fact, Grayson was mostly irrelevant to the overall story.

The Knightfall storyline, and Azrael becoming Batman, was meant as a response to all the fanmail they were still getting in the wake of Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns demanding that the Bat-office start portraying Batman as not just willing to kill, but actively killing, the criminals and super-villains he fought against. Obviously, O'Neil and co. disagreed with that vision of Batman, and whenever they published a letter from somebody demanding it, they would respectfully disagree with it. One time, they responded by following up the letter with letters written by little kids expressing their love for Batman.

But still, the demands for Batman to begin killing, and be shown as wanting to kill, criminals kept coming in.

So O'Neil and co. basically thought, "You want a Batman who kills? Who's excessively violent and vicious and is much more concerned with punishing criminals than he is with protecting the innocent and saving people's lives? Okay, we'll give you what you want. And we'll show you why it's a bad idea in the process."

That's why Jean-Paul Valley was introduced. They didn't feel they had an existing character in the Bat-mythos at that time whom they felt they could put on that kind of path without doing major harm to the character. Not Bruce, and certainly not Dick. But a brand-new character? One without an established history as a hero, or an existing fanbase who would be outraged at such a turn? That they could do the story with.

That's why they didn't have Dick Grayson become Batman in Knightfall. He was entirely the wrong character for the role in the story that they were planning on telling. At no point were they ever doing the kind of story you lament could have been done. They had no intention of doing "an iconic moment for Dick Grayson," as you describe it, because they were not telling a story about Dick Grayson. It was always going to circle back to Bruce Wayne reclaiming the mantle of Batman from Jean-Paul, because the story was about why Bruce's vow to never kill was always better than any fan-demands that he become DC's Punisher.

You misunderstood my post. I wasn't saying that anyone else was going to permanently become Batman. Not Azrael or Dick. Obviously Bruce would have returned to the role, and I wasn't saying that the actual Knightfall story set up Dick become Batman or something. I was saying that conceptually for a landmark issue in Batman #500, which took place during Knightfall, Dick taking on the Batman mantle and defeating the villain that broke Bruce's back is a far stronger story and narrative than Azrael doing it given how long Dick has been part of the franchise. It would have been an iconic moment I think. I know that large parts of the story would have to be rewritten to accommodate such a massive change given how Dick wasn't really involved in the story, but the idea of doing this big story that was going to cross over Batman #500 having Dick to me taking on the mantel would have been a much more powerful a moment than Azrael. So it feels like a potential missed opportunity.

Also this was in response to the idea of this thread that Dick was "passed over" to be Batman for Azrael. Which he kind of was even if that wasn't the intent of the creators. Since a year after Knightfall they had Dick become Batman anyway in Prodigal Son. That is what made me wonder if they tossed around the idea of having Dick be Batman in the early Knightfall development because they were so quick to have Dick become Batman after the story ended.

Although I'm not sure if this is true or not, but Prodigal Son to me always felt like a response by the Batman Office to the fans that were upset that Dick didn't become Batman and Azrael did. I don't know if they ever commented on it, but given how quickly it came out and calling it Prodigal Son felt like it had a clear meaning behind it. Like feeling Dick was wasted by not being used in Knightfall and this was them trying to answer those fans that might have been upset that Dick got "passed over" maybe. Which makes me wonder what kind of story Knightfall would have been if Dick did become Batman in it and Batman #500 was the moment Dick put on the cowl to defeat Bane. I just wonder how that would have been looked at and remembered, especially compared to something like Prodigal Son which has been mostly forgotten now.

I mean I understood what people like Dixon and O'Neil were going for in the actual story. I get that Azrael was meant to represent how an actual dark and lethal Batman is in the wrong, and how Bruce coming back to defeat that other Batman was what they were trying to go for. I also get that Azrael was probably created in response to things like Spawn. Who I believe debuted a year before Knightfall and kind of ushered in this new wave of darker and more violent comics that started to pick up some momentum in the late 80s with Spawn being this bomb that went off in the market.

[Aahz]

Azrael was iirc created just for Knightfall.

I'm not sure if they could have even used Dick for Knightfall since Dick was iirc at that point still under controll of the Titans office.

And I kind of doubt that they would have Dick take down Bane when Bruce couldn't.

[Digifiend]

Dick's Titans control was pretty much over by then. Almost as soon as Azrael was done, Bruce gave the cowl to Dick. And then once it went back to Bruce, he got a solo book. By then he'd been written out of Titans.

[MajorHoy]

Didn't the first already become Batman and WW?

When did Dick Grayson become Wonder Woman?

[Timber Wolf-By-Night]

When did Dick Grayson become Wonder Woman?

Just imagine Wertham's corpse turning over in its grave over the idea of Robin, the Boy Wonder Woman.

As for Badou, you're thinking in too small terms. You're thinking of the 500th issue of Batman being more important than the larger and longer story they were telling. I think they thought Batman #500 was, while a landmark issue for the Batman title itself, just another chapter in the larger storyline. They were not under any circumstances going to radically change or rewrite the storyline they started just to accommodate some random fanboy who thought he had a better idea on how (or by whom) Bane should be defeated just to make Batman #500 "more iconic." Come hell or high water, their replacement Batman was going to go down a dark path. They knew this would inevitably upset some or many fans. Having their replacement Batman be a new character spared both themselves the headache of the shitshow of outraged reaction from fans if they had chosen a more established character as the Batman replacement who killed and let innocents die, and established characters like Dick Grayson the black mark on their character that would have followed them forever after.

They wanted to tell a dark and sobering story with specific story beats. You want them to have told a radically different and, quite frankly, fanservicey story with different story beats and a different ending altogether. You were never getting what you wanted. Honestly, I'm tired of fans who think they would be better writers just because the actual writers wrote what they wanted and not what said fans wanted to see.

[dswynne]

This trend has been around before and after DiDio. Why is this?

-Jean Paul Valley becomes Batman instead of Dick Grayson
-Artemis becomes Wonder Woman instead of Donna Troy
-Connor Hawke becomes Green Arrow instead of Roy Harper
-Arthur Joseph Curry becomes Aquaman instead of Garth

Real answer? MONEY, and the value of the IPs.

Comix book answer? All the replacements allowed for the writers to try for something different. We already know about the side-kicks' stories, so why not try something new? Besides, this was around the time that Superman's death produced more Supermen, so why not try something similar with other properties?

[MajorHoy]

Just imagine Wertham's corpse turning over in its grave over the idea of Robin, the Boy Wonder Woman.

[mathew101281]

Because most of the Titans grew into their own thing. Sick is cooler as Nightwing then as a 2nd tier Batman.

[skyvolt2000]

Real answer? MONEY, and the value of the IPs.

Comix book answer? All the replacements allowed for the writers to try for something different. We already know about the side-kicks' stories, so why not try something new? Besides, this was around the time that Superman's death produced more Supermen, so why not try something similar with other properties?

And in Superman's case it spawned 2 comic book runs that lasted a number of years-Steel & Superboy.

[Aahz]

Dick's Titans control was pretty much over by then.

By the time Azrael took over as Batman maybe, but the build up to Knighfall and the introduction of Azrael started way earlier. (And the planing of the whole event goes probably back even further)

[Sutekh]

Nobody is going to get to replace Clark, Bruce or Diana (for long), so I don't want to see the Teen Titans 'take over the legacies,' since they'll only lose them again, and some would see that as a demotion. (Wally couldn't even replace Barry *who was dead for 25 years*. What chance does Dick or Donna have?)

I'd rather see them grow into their own thing, like Dick has, as Nightwing, than be one of many not-as-good-as-the-original Batman-for-a-year.

Same with Donna, Wally, Roy, Garth, etc. which is why I am more fond of when they take on identities like Arsenal or Troia or Tempest, that don't derive from their mentors. I don't want Garth to be Aquaman, or Donna to 'become' Wonder Woman, because those jobs are taken, in perpetuity.

[married guy]

Nobody is going to get to replace Clark, Bruce or Diana (for long), so I don't want to see the Teen Titans 'take over the legacies,' since they'll only lose them again, and some would see that as a demotion. (Wally couldn't even replace Barry *who was dead for 25 years*. What chance does Dick or Donna have?)

I'd rather see them grow into their own thing, like Dick has, as Nightwing, than be one of many not-as-good-as-the-original Batman-for-a-year.

Same with Donna, Wally, Roy, Garth, etc. which is why I am more fond of when they take on identities like Arsenal or Troia or Tempest, that don't derive from their mentors. I don't want Garth to be Aquaman, or Donna to 'become' Wonder Woman, because those jobs are taken, in perpetuity.

While I get that, I think both Dick as Batman and Wally as Flash proved the characters COULD take over the mantle and it will work.
The Dick/Damien dynamic was an absolute blast and Wally (for me) simply IS the Flash.

If DC was really serious, they definitely COULD have the Titans step up and take over their mentor's roles.

[MajorHoy]

While I get that, I think both Dick as Batman and Wally as Flash proved the characters COULD take over the mantle and it will work.

It might work for a while, but DC would eventually go back to Bruce and Barry in those roles, and where would that leave Dick and Wally? Dick was still Batman for a while once Bruce came back in Morrison's run, but even that felt more like Dick was in Bruce's shadow. And DC couldn't even stay with Wally as The Flash, replacing him at one point with Bart (briefly) and then even bringing back Barry from the dead (with that horrible retcon to Barry's parents)!