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  1. #1
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    Default The Mandalorian As An Argument Against TLJ.

    Let me start by making this clear:

    -In no way do I think The Mandalorian was deliberately written to refute arguments for The Last Jedi.

    -Rian Johnson is still a good writer and great director in my opinion; TLJ is just his off day in story construction to me.

    -No argument about subjective artwork can ever have true “proof.”

    -You can still like The Last Jedi and be a great Star Wars fan, and have good reasons for liking it; it’s actual quality is far more debatable, but your personal reaction to it is not.

    Having prefaced with all of that...

    Anyone else think that 3 out of the last 5 episodes point out that “fanservice”/audience expectations actually seem to have been a major asset in Season Two of the show to a clearly much more successful degree than TLJ’s “subverting expectations” strategy?

    I mean, some of this is just a matter of ambition in even the details and extraneous add-ons that TLJ was apathetic and flippant with - Mayfield’s episode this last week showed you get better treatment and ambition as a guest star in TM than John Biyega and Finn got in TLJ, for instance.

    But...

    - Bo-Katarn showed up with her crew in armor, kicked ass, contributed to the main characters’ story and character arcs in a big way, and planted seeds for this show and others.

    - Ahsoka showed up with her lightsabers, kicked ass, contributed to the main characters’ story and character arcs in a big way, and planted seeds for this show and others.

    - Boba Fett showed up again, kicked ass, got his armor back, kicked more ass, and is still contributing to the story and character arcs as we speak.

    - Meanwhile, Din and Grogu are still only growing in popularity and identity, in a setting that can make ramshackle Imperial Remnant forces horrifying over drinks in the mess hall.

    - Oh, and two weeks ago the series managed an episode where all speaking characters of significance weren’t white guys.

    And in contrast, TLJ managed to have Luke disappoint a huge number of his fans, not attract major new audience attention to the series in spite of Hamill”s great performance, downgraded most of the First Order’s threat to bumbling Saturday Morning Cartoon levels, derail what momentum and popularity Rey and Finn had, and strive admirably for progressive accolades while still accidentally promoting two white guys over the original leads, leaving fewer spin-off capabilities for both the old and new characters in the process.

    I’m not saying that TM proves unequivocally that TLJ didn’t have potential in its conceptual ideas, or that Rian Johnson isn’t on the level of the writers and directors in TM - indeed, I’d argue Knives Out shows he’s every bit their equal or superior, and his Breaking Bad episode shows he’d be an excellent guest director with someone else’s script.

    But I am arguing that, in comparison, there’s clearly inadequacies in either execution or conception in TLJ... and that sometimes, there’s both, to a degree that even Johnson’s great skills couldn’t overcome, while over on TM you can have Robert Rodriguez forced to be a fill-in director with a too-shot script on a rushed schedule, and still produce a better overall Star Wars experience for the entire fanbase rather than just some of them.
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  2. #2
    Ultimate Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    Personally I kind of wonder if Mandalorian and it's spin-offs will do for the sequel era what Clone Wars did for the prequel era, although the trilogy itself is still 25 years from this point; at least Mandalorian is fleshing out the New Republic, one of the most ignored aspects of the ST.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisIII View Post
    Personally I kind of wonder if Mandalorian and it's spin-offs will do for the sequel era what Clone Wars did for the prequel era, although the trilogy itself is still 25 years from this point; at least Mandalorian is fleshing out the New Republic, one of the most ignored aspects of the ST.
    Over on a another board, a few of us haters/critics/fans against the ST feel that the Mando-affiliated stuff has a strong chance of rehabilitating the New are public, som elf the aspects of the First Order, and could potential salvage the Jedi situation a bit - there’s a speculation that *if* F&F were to introduce Luke-trained Jedi and provide them an excuse to be out of the picture like Ahsoka was in the OT... you can shore up some of Luke’s legacy as a Jedi.

    I think that’s both a valid theory in terms of what it would do, but a very unlikely theory to have actually happened; it’s a bit too “mea culpa” on LFL’s part considering how much they supported TLJ.
    Like action, adventure, rogues, and outlaws? Like anti-heroes, femme fatales, mysteries and thrillers?

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  4. #4
    Astonishing Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    Who can forget the most famous line of The Last Jedi?

    Kylo: Don't let the past die. Make tons of Disney+ shows about it if you have to. That's the only way to salvage this franchise.

    Rey: Wait...what?

    Finn: You ain't going to Disney+ me!*

    Poe: You and me both Finn. I'm joining the Dune franchise after this, no streaming for me!

    *actual John Boyega quote!
    *
    "The Marvel EIC Chair has a certain curse that goes along with it: it tends to drive people insane, and ultimately, out of the business altogether. It is the notorious last stop for many staffers, as once you've sat in The Big Chair, your pariah status is usually locked in." Christopher Priest

  5. #5
    Ultimate Member j9ac9k's Avatar
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    ***SPOILERS FOR THE SEASON FINALE OF THE MANDALORIAN******
    - They certainly gave a certain character a hallway fight scene of their own and a chance kick ass in a way they never got to in the movies....

  6. #6
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    I think it does the opposite, actually, it feels like it fits right in TLJ's wheelhouse. It delves into the lives of the people not affiliated with the Empire/First Order or New Republic. The whole conversation in the penultimate episode about how, as far as the people are concerned, New Republic or Empire, it doesn't matter to them, really fit with the Canto Bight stuff, ships for both sides made by the same people etc.

    I'm not going to go into the Luke Skywalker legacy stuff, as I think TLJ very clearly set him up as the greatest Jedi there ever was or will be, with a true grasp of the light side of the force and the ultimate legacy of inspiring the resistance around the universe. But I also think none of that contradicts what we saw in the last ep of Mandalorian. Mando I think is a solid B TV show that's had two or three A+ moments that have elevated it, some of those have been sheer fan service (and I don't mean that disparagingly, I loved it!) that have been a lot of flash to hide not quite as much bang as I'd have liked. TLJ likely had too much bang and not enough flash for a lot of the fanbase, but I loved it.

  7. #7
    Put a smile on that face Immortal Weapon's Avatar
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    spoilers:
    Grogu died when Kylo went to the dark side, huh? Ignoring the ST is the only way to keep him alive.
    end of spoilers

  8. #8
    Ultimate Member j9ac9k's Avatar
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    A lot of time passes between the end of this episode and that other thing. Any number of things could have happened.

  9. #9
    Mighty Member nightw1ng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immortal Weapon View Post
    spoilers:
    Grogu died when Kylo went to the dark side, huh? Ignoring the ST is the only way to keep him alive.
    end of spoilers
    spoilers:
    Kylo killing all of Luke's students happens like a couple decades after The Mandalorian occurs. Grogu is supposed to be talented, so I'm presuming he still wouldn't be in training by then.
    end of spoilers

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony W View Post

    Finn: You ain't going to Disney+ me!*

    *actual John Boyega quote!
    *
    Which is unfortunate because he might actually get some respect over there.

  11. #11
    Spectacular Member macjr33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greatmetropolitan View Post
    I think it does the opposite, actually, it feels like it fits right in TLJ's wheelhouse. It delves into the lives of the people not affiliated with the Empire/First Order or New Republic. The whole conversation in the penultimate episode about how, as far as the people are concerned, New Republic or Empire, it doesn't matter to them, really fit with the Canto Bight stuff, ships for both sides made by the same people etc.

    I'm not going to go into the Luke Skywalker legacy stuff, as I think TLJ very clearly set him up as the greatest Jedi there ever was or will be, with a true grasp of the light side of the force and the ultimate legacy of inspiring the resistance around the universe. But I also think none of that contradicts what we saw in the last ep of Mandalorian. Mando I think is a solid B TV show that's had two or three A+ moments that have elevated it, some of those have been sheer fan service (and I don't mean that disparagingly, I loved it!) that have been a lot of flash to hide not quite as much bang as I'd have liked. TLJ likely had too much bang and not enough flash for a lot of the fanbase, but I loved it.
    I understand where you are coming from; however, I would have to disagree.

    TLJ, by design, subverts the expectations of the audience; whereas, The Mandalorian does the opposite and even more so in Season 2. The scene with Bill Burr's character in the penultimate episode was probably one of my least favorite as was the whole war profiteering/Canto Bright arc in the TLJ because that kind of "realism" does not really fit in SW from my perspective.

    I wrote this on another thread here, so I will just sum it up; however, my belief is that what makes Star Wars special is that it's a modern mythology. A call back to the classic stories of our youth of good against evil. It's a fairy tale in space that provides an escape for the audience against all of the realities that may be in their lives. Filioni talks a lot about how Lucas wanted there to always be hope in Star Wars because that's what kids need (and Lucas himself being inspired by the Western serials and Saturday matinees of his youth).

    spoilers:
    For me, when I saw Luke arrive in this episode I felt like a 10 year-old kid again, I didn't feel like that at all when watching the TLJ.
    end of spoilers

    With that said, while I didn't like the TLJ I can understand why others may like it.
    Last edited by macjr33; 12-18-2020 at 04:36 PM.

  12. #12
    Put a smile on that face Immortal Weapon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightw1ng View Post
    spoilers:
    Kylo killing all of Luke's students happens like a couple decades after The Mandalorian occurs. Grogu is supposed to be talented, so I'm presuming he still wouldn't be in training by then.
    end of spoilers
    spoilers:
    Grogu will probably be a preschooler by the time Kylo kills everyone. He will still need to be in someone's care.
    end of spoilers

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by macjr33 View Post
    I understand where you are coming from; however, I would have to disagree.

    TLJ, by design, subverts the expectations of the audience; whereas, The Mandalorian does the opposite and even more so in Season 2. The scene with Bill Burr's character in the penultimate episode was probably one of my least favorite as was the whole war profiteering/Canto Bright arc in the TLJ because that kind of "realism" does not really fit in SW from my perspective.

    I wrote this on another thread here, so I will just sum it up; however, my belief is that what makes Star Wars special is that it's a modern mythology. A call back to the classic stories of our youth of good against evil. It's a fairy tale in space that provides an escape for the audience against all of the realities that may be in their lives. Filioni talks a lot about how Lucas wanted there to always be hope in Star Wars because that's what kids need (and Lucas himself being inspired by the Western serials and Saturday matinees of his youth).

    spoilers:
    For me, when I saw Luke arrive in this episode I felt like a 10 year-old kid again, I didn't feel like that at all when watching the TLJ.
    end of spoilers

    With that said, while I didn't like the TLJ I can understand why others may like it.
    I think the real argument for me is that:

    #1 - I think TM, especially this week, demonstrated better understanding of audience expectations than TLJ did - there are times and areas where TLJ makes choices that belie not really getting its audience on both old and new elements. For instance, while I think that the Luke story in TLJ is better written than the rest of the film, it seems to think Luke is viewed in a more juvenile fashion by his fans, and thus can seem condescending and patronizing with him - and I’d have to say that it really didn’t understand why fans invested in Finn or Rey, and only really seemed to understand Kylo fans if they salivated over him at everyone else’s expense.

    So some of TLJ’s subversions and characterizations are calling a sphere a cube, or a wolf a ram, and it floats between being too cynical and disappointing in some areas and more juvenile and infantile in others.

    #2 - ...TM’s just better at using older characters to help the new characters. Luke in TLJ is basically useless for Rey’s story; even if you like it, let’s not pretend it’s designed to propel and serve her story the way Bo-Katan, Ahsoka, or Boba are used to serve Din’s.

    TLJ left the ST less healthy than it was before, in spite of Luke’s arguably movie-stealing plotline. Meanwhile, TM has only gotten healthier with each appearance by a familiar character, and it’s still clearly Din’s show.

    And yeah, that means I’m arguing that -

    spoilers:
    - 5 minutes of Luke being a Billy McBadass and doin what he was expected to do around the main characters isn’t just more entertaing in terms of “flash” but also more substantial in contribution to the the née guys’ plot than 30 minutes of Luke ruminating on his pity party instead of focusing on Rey.
    end of spoilers
    Like action, adventure, rogues, and outlaws? Like anti-heroes, femme fatales, mysteries and thrillers?

    I wrote a book with them. Outlaw’s Shadow: A Sherwood Noir. Robin Hood’s evil counterpart, Guy of Gisbourne, is the main character. Feel free to give it a look: https://read.amazon.com/kp/embed?asi...E2PKBNJFH76GQP

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    #2 - ...TM’s just better at using older characters to help the new characters. Luke in TLJ is basically useless for Rey’s story; even if you like it, let’s not pretend it’s designed to propel and serve her story the way Bo-Katan, Ahsoka, or Boba are used to serve Din’s.
    Without touching on the core premise, because I'm so sick of hearing TLJ hate I can't even bring myself to engage one way or the other, I agree with this statement here wholeheartedly. The Mandalorian has excelled throughout season 2 at using guest cast to drive forward to the core of it's own story. Which shouldn't really be surprising, Filoni has been doing this with his characters for ages. (See TCW characters in Rebels, for example.)

  15. #15
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    Is it too late to resurrect Luke Skywalker?

    I really do feel there are still a metric ton of stories to be told with his character.

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