Do you prefer the JSA to be on earth 2 or on the main earth?

[MajorHoy]

. . . But it's still true that on Earth 1, Dick Grayson was already Robin when Barry Allen discovered Earth 2 (publication 1961), and was maybe ten years older when CoIE happened (1985). By contrast, Earth 2's Huntress wasn't even a sparkle in her parents' eyes when Jay Garrick first encountered Earth 1 . . .

More accurately, she wasn't even a sparkle in DC Comics's eye; she was first seen (as a grown adult) in 1977 and then retconned into previous existence. (So she would have been born by then.)



And Earth-2's marriage of Bruce and Selina was also retconned in with that story.
It came up again later in stories like The Brave and the Bold #197 (cover-dated April 1983) and the Mr. & Mrs. Superman feature story in Superman Family #211 (cover-dated October 1981).

[bat39]

More accurately, she wasn't even a sparkle in DC Comics's eye; she was first seen (as a grown adult) in 1977 and then retconned into previous existence. (So she would have been born by then.)



And Earth-2's marriage of Bruce and Selina was also retconned in with that story.
It came up again later in stories like The Brave and the Bold #197 (cover-dated April 1983) and the Mr. & Mrs. Superman feature story in Superman Family #211 (cover-dated October 1981).

Pretty much this.

As far as the disparity in the passage of time between E1 and E2, America vs. the Justice Society, published around 1983, tries to give an explanation. Basically, on E2, it was 1963 when Jay Garrick first encountered Barry Allen...but they aren't sure what year it was on E1 that Barry came from.

This of course raises a bunch of other questions. COIE occured in 1985 on E2...which means that for the JSA, it was 22 years since Barry and Jay first met. Had it also been 22 years for the JLA on E1? Or was it only like 10-12 years? Which would suggest that time passes slower on E1...even if that wasn't the original intention. But it seems that they 'sync up' by 1985?

[Dataweaver]

In 1969, the Superman department published something about how time works on Earth 1. Essentially, it was the same approach that was used after Zero Hour: whatever is happening now is happening now, and whatever happened in the past is measured on a floating timeline using terms relative to the present: “one year ago”, “five years ago”, and so on. Earth 2, meanwhile, was operating on a fixed timeline.

That's why they couldn't confirm what year it was on Earth 1 when Flash of Two Worlds took place: it was being dragged forward by the floating timeline, and the best they could do was to pin it down relative to “now”, with a gradual drift further into the past as “now” slowly crept forward. But in contrast, Earth 2 was advancing in real-time.

[Agent Z]

I'm fine with them being in continuity, but I don't like that they were retroactively established to have inspired Superman and Batman, when in real life, it was the other way around. I feel very strongly that Superman should inspire the DCU's heroic age. So, here's what I would do so everyone can have their cake and eat it too: The JSA still existed, and all of DC's pre-Superman superhero history like the Justice Experience still happened. However, at some point prior to Superman's debut, something happens and the world's memory and knowledge of superheroes is wiped from existence. Like maybe Vandal Savage discovers the identity of every hero on Earth and the Spectre decides the threat is too great so he just wipes everyone's knowledge of superheroes.

So then, when Superman and Batman debut, in their minds (and everyone else's), they are doing so as the first superheroes. They weren't "inspired" by anyone, they both came up with the idea themselves because no one remembers the JSA. But then at some point later, either before or after the JLA forms (can't decide), the modern heroes uncover the truth about the JSA and restore Earth's knowledge and memories of pre-Superman superheroes. This way, you can retain both DC's history and Superman's status as the first superhero.

In-universe, Superman's debut was not what led to the rise of superheroes. With the exception of members of the Super-Family, all of them became heroes independent of him. Superman inspiring the heroic age in the DCU has always been more fan canon than anything.

[DrNewGod]

In-universe, Superman's debut was not what led to the rise of superheroes. With the exception of members of the Super-Family, all of them became heroes independent of him. Superman inspiring the heroic age in the DCU has always been more fan canon than anything.

Ummm...not exactly. Superman's inspiring image is not just a fan thing, but the matter gets confused. Comics creators posed Superman as The Wellspring, but a lot of those creators (Thomas, for example) had often been superhero fans.

There's some serious Chicken Or Egg stuff here. Yes, in-verse, Superman was not the first of what we'd call superheroes.in DC's history. But that pre-Action Comics #1 history didn't exist before Superman burst on the scene and cometely redirected the medium in 1938.

All that is before considering that DC history has had more cosmetic surgery than the entire Kardashian family combined.

So (and thanks DC for so epically ****ing this up), we're really in this place where whether it was the chicken or the egg is up to each of us to decide. There's no winning the argument. Only planting flags for our own ego.

[kalai]

Honestly maybe they should be set on Earth-2.
Otherwise Infinity Inc will not be of any importance.

[CaptCleghorn]

In 1969, the Superman department published something about how time works on Earth 1. Essentially, it was the same approach that was used after Zero Hour: whatever is happening now is happening now, and whatever happened in the past is measured on a floating timeline using terms relative to the present: “one year ago”, “five years ago”, and so on. Earth 2, meanwhile, was operating on a fixed timeline.

That's why they couldn't confirm what year it was on Earth 1 when Flash of Two Worlds took place: it was being dragged forward by the floating timeline, and the best they could do was to pin it down relative to “now”, with a gradual drift further into the past as “now” slowly crept forward. But in contrast, Earth 2 was advancing in real-time.

This was a fine solution for years. COIE messed everything up, but even if COIE hadn't happened, we'd now have the original JSAers all being about 100 years old. Now this isn't a problem for some of them. But for others, it's awkward and that awkwardness would be getting worse. From here on in, it seems (to me anyway) that to have non-powered JSAers alive today on main Earth, we need some sort of time jump. Wesley Dodds, Ted Knight, Al Pratt, and others don't have any story explantion for being 100 (and older as time goes on).

[MajorHoy]

This was a fine solution for years. COIE messed everything up, but even if COIE hadn't happened, we'd now have the original JSAers all being about 100 years old. Now this isn't a problem for some of them. But for others, it's awkward and that awkwardness would be getting worse. From here on in, it seems (to me anyway) that to have non-powered JSAers alive today on main Earth, we need some sort of time jump. Wesley Dodds, Ted Knight, Al Pratt, and others don't have any story explantion for being 100 (and older as time goes on).

psst! Read "All-Star Squadron Annual #3".

[Jim Kelly]

The age thing has never been a problem for me--and there are lots of explanations available--but they did kill off practically every one of the original Society members except Jay and Alan. And Ted Grant--not really an original member--who has the lives of a cat. Everyone else died--Carter came back in a new body. They even killed Queen Hippolyta.

[CaptCleghorn]

psst! Read "All-Star Squadron Annual #3".

And that worked for then and keeping these guys vital into their eighties, but time is passing on. The Ian Karkull stuff for them and their close family becomes more and more of a stretch, especially when we think about ages for giving birth. The longer time goes on, the messier this gets without trying to come up with some permament resolution. And oh yeah, staying with that solution.

[achilles]

This was a fine solution for years. COIE messed everything up, but even if COIE hadn't happened, we'd now have the original JSAers all being about 100 years old. Now this isn't a problem for some of them. But for others, it's awkward and that awkwardness would be getting worse. From here on in, it seems (to me anyway) that to have non-powered JSAers alive today on main Earth, we need some sort of time jump. Wesley Dodds, Ted Knight, Al Pratt, and others don't have any story explantion for being 100 (and older as time goes on).

All three of 'em dead in Johns' run. So, not an issue.

[CaptCleghorn]

All three of 'em dead in Johns' run. So, not an issue.

Alive last week, dead yesterday, today who knows?

[Dataweaver]

My point wasn't that the “real-time Earth 2, floating-now Earth 1” notion should be reinstated; only that there's precedent for different Earths to progress through time at different rates. It need not even be consistent: you could, for example, say that Earth 2 was developing in real time from approximately 1961 until 1985, then slowed down and has only been developing between a month and a season since then, for a total progression of as little as three years and as much as nine years having passed on Earth 2 since the First Crisis.

That said, I heard something about the new timeline for DC not going with the “floating now” anymore, but instead going with “DC's present is actually still somewhere in the late 20th century; it only looks like the present because DC's super-geniuses have accelerated the overall technology development over what we've seen”. If they're still going with that, then the newest iteration of Earth 2 may well have its history synced up with the main Earth's history, just developed differently. Say that it has more in the way of mystics and less in the way of tech geniuses, and just like the main Earth has ended up with 2020 aesthetics at least three decades early, Earth 2 could end up with dieselpunk aesthetics in the same year.

What I'd like to see is the JSA both in the history of Earth 1 and on Earth 2, in somewhat different forms: let the main Earth get a JSA that's built mostly around the post-Crisis version of the JSA (1985–2011, publication-wise, and lining up with the resurgent JSA we saw in the last issue of Doomsday Clock); but have Earth 2 be more along the lines of the pre-Crisis All-Star Squadron Earth, at least as far as E2G1 and E2G2 are concerned:

E2G1 would be a lot like Roy Thomas's All-Star Squadron (i.e., set in WWII and featuring not just the JSA but also the Seven Soldiers of Victory, the Freedom Fighters, and various other Golden Age heroes that DC has subsequently acquired the rights to).

E2G2 could be built around the JSA as it existed during the bulk of the Silver Age (e.g., Robin, Power Girl, Star-Spangled Kid, and Huntress joining the JSA, and eventually Infinity Inc. forming). But I'd also consider putting various Charlton heroes on E2G2.

For E2G3, I'd bring in the Young All-Stars: recast from being WWII-era substitutes for the likes of Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman to instead being a third generation of legacies inspired by said heroes, decades later.

And for E2G4, I'd try to salvage ideas from the N52E2 series. Specifically, that Earth's versions of Superman, Red Tornado, and Aquawoman.