Superman: Red & Blue Announced

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Because continuity as we conceive it today didn't exist yet. They were mostly single episodes which were relatively coherent with each other, but modern continuity (as it was introduced by Marvel) became part of Superman comics only after Byrne's takeover.
The first years of Berganza's tenure were actually quite stable. Everything started to go downhill with Birthright and probably for reasons Berganza has relatively few responsibilities for.

I wouldn't let Berganza off the hook that easily. I think he had to mind his Ps & Qs for the beginning of his tenure because of the cluster%&@# that was the Superman 2000 debacle in which he fired the entirety of the Triangle Era creative teams, had Morrison, Waid, Millar & Peyer set to replace them, but forgot to let Mike Carlin know about it until he'd come back from vacation.

How on Earth did that guy manage to keep failing upwards at DC for so long is flabbergasting to me.

That said, yeah, Didio's reboot fetish in regards to Superman and the DCU in general was definitely the main factor for the instability in the Superman line over the last decade or so.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I know, right? I mean, Jurgens was by far the most popular super-writer in that period (didn't particularly like him, still don't), but Simonson and Bogdanove's run was probably the most distinct and over-the-top in a good way (and funny, too. I don't remember many genuinely funny moments in Jurgens' Superman. He took himself too seriously). I have also realised that it was bizarrely cyberpunk-ish in its own way before Loeb and Kelly - not in the architecture of Metropolis, but in the villains, who often had robotic features (or limbs, eyes...). It is probably not a case that Simonson also wrote Steel's regular series. Yes, if I had to choose a direction for a revival of regular Superman would probably be this one.

EDIT PS: This issue https://superman86to99.tumblr.com/po...-november-1993 also has a pulp-ish aircraft, superhot Lois and a S&M villain - how can you NOT love it?

Bog was the only guy who knew how fabulous that Super-mullet was. He went full Fabio on that sucker.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Berganza not telling Carlin he had asked the Superman 2000 group to pitch and instead letting Carlin think they had pitched on their own volition is how those four got banned from Superman, so I’ll always blame him for that even if he wasn’t a sexual harasser.

I truly cannot figure out how Berganza recovered from this. His very first move as editor of the Superman books was to alienate not only the existing creative teams, but end up blackballing three of the biggest creators in comics and sending them straight into the loving arms of Joe Quesada at Marvel. If Bill Jemas hadn't been such a colossal douchnozzle, they might not have even gotten Morrison or Waid back. Millar was always too canny a businessman to go back to DC though, especially not while Levitz was still running things.

[HsssH]

Looking at what kind of stuff Millar later wrote I guess it is good that he was chased away. No, this doesn't excuse Berganza at all.

[Myskin]

I wouldn't let Berganza off the hook that easily. I think he had to mind his Ps & Qs for the beginning of his tenure because of the cluster%&@# that was the Superman 2000 debacle in which he fired the entirety of the Triangle Era creative teams, had Morrison, Waid, Millar & Peyer set to replace them, but forgot to let Mike Carlin know about it until he'd come back from vacation.

I was referring to the continuity. Editorial troubles aside, there is no doubt that the Loeb & Kelly run was very coherent with what had come before. Even when they started to insert Silver Age elements ("The Truth About Krypton!", Superman 166) they were still coherent with the post-Crisis origin. The character perceives the contradiction with his "official" birth and the Silver Age/post-Crisis confusion is actually presented as a mystery. When they resolved it, some years later, even if it was an unsatisfying conclusion (it was supposed to be different, then plans changed), it was STILL somehow coherent with post-Crisis Superman.
Birthright is the story which started the whole mess. DC has a strange habit of trying to reach one specific purpose through different storylines at the same time. Whenever it happens, it is always a sign of forthcoming editorial mess. In Futures' End the JSA was still alive in one of Brainiac's stolen timelines BUT in Convergence current Earth-2 as actually the original Earth-2, just changed, BUT it was all Dr Manhattan's fault and they all came back. In Death Metal EVERYTHING counts, BUT they published a Dominus-related miniseries some time later which introduced, I don't remember what, a relativityverse or something? As far as return of the Silver Age is concerned, we have: cold Krypton was actually an implanted memory BUT Jor-El and Lara were actually a mix of Silver age and Byrne age BUT the real origin is Birthright BUT Birthright is actually the result of Superboy punching continuity BUT it is actually Superman falling into a different timeline in Superman 200 BUT....

It's funny, because when they were actually trying to change the origin back to the Silver Age one (or a modernized version of the SA) I was actually quite happy with it. But as years went by I completely changed my mind. Now I think that these attempts didn't bring anything particularly useful to the stories and they created many more troubles than it was worth. And it's not just about the inconsistencies. As I said, I have my issues with the post-Crisis era, but I cannot deny that it was the most consistent and coherent thematically and storywise. Basically, it is based on two recurring themes: weird genetics and - to a way lesser degree - cyberpunk (Engine City, Cyborg Superman, etc.). Of course, it was the 1990s - they are the same recurring themes from TMNT (if you compare the similarities - the villains, the recognizable motifs - between TMNT and Byrne/Jurgens Superman you could actually get surprised at finding how many they are). But - déjà vu aside - writers and editors were very, VERY good at building an entire mythology on it. In fact, I'd say that it is such a strong and robust mythology that it didn't need anything from the Silver Age. If they had had an overwhelming necessity of reintroducing some silly elements from SA, they could have done it without recycling anything pre-Crisis or forcing it into the stories. All they had to do was finding a way to make the SA elements they were interested in coherent with the post-Crisis origin. Which is actually what Jurgens/Kesel/Simonson and later Kelly/Loeb were doing. Heck, even the Superman 2000 pitch is about that!

What's even funnier is that 3-4 reboots later and countless attempts at shoving the SA down the readers' throat, post-Crisis Superman actually won. You may find some Silver or Golden Age elements in nowadays' stories, but they are mostly aesthetic references or vague cameos. However, the Kents are alive, Luthor is a billionaire, Clark and Lois are married, Kelex, Eradicator and Cyborg Superman are back and quite popular... Basically, most of what we got post-Crisis still defines modern-day Superman (as far as I know, the only elements which would have needed some serious work to be reintroduced are Zod and Kara Zor-El; bizarrely, Jon is actually a bit easier IMHO). They could just fully reconnect to Post-Crisis, pre-Birthright Superman and they could solve most of their continuity problems. Yes, we'd "lose" 15 years of stories, but hey, they don't mention them anymore anyway.

[Vathlonian]

I was referring to the continuity. Editorial troubles aside, there is no doubt that the Loeb & Kelly run was very coherent with what had come before. Even when they started to insert Silver Age elements ("The Truth About Krypton!", Superman 166) they were still coherent with the post-Crisis origin. The character perceives the contradiction with his "official" birth and the Silver Age/post-Crisis confusion is actually presented as a mystery. When they resolved it, some years later, even if it was an unsatisfying conclusion (it was supposed to be different, then plans changed), it was STILL somehow coherent with post-Crisis Superman.
Birthright is the story which started the whole mess. DC has a strange habit of trying to reach one specific purpose through different storylines at the same time. Whenever it happens, it is always a sign of forthcoming editorial mess. In Futures' End the JSA was still alive in one of Brainiac's stolen timelines BUT in Convergence current Earth-2 as actually the original Earth-2, just changed, BUT it was all Dr Manhattan's fault and they all came back. In Death Metal EVERYTHING counts, BUT they published a Dominus-related miniseries some time later which introduced, I don't remember what, a relativityverse or something? As far as return of the Silver Age is concerned, we have: cold Krypton was actually an implanted memory BUT Jor-El and Lara were actually a mix of Silver age and Byrne age BUT the real origin is Birthright BUT Birthright is actually the result of Superboy punching continuity BUT it is actually Superman falling into a different timeline in Superman 200 BUT....

It's funny, because when they were actually trying to change the origin back to the Silver Age one (or a modernized version of the SA) I was actually quite happy with it. But as years went by I completely changed my mind. Now I think that these attempts didn't bring anything particularly useful to the stories and they created many more troubles than it was worth. And it's not just about the inconsistencies. As I said, I have my issues with the post-Crisis era, but I cannot deny that it was the most consistent and coherent thematically and storywise. Basically, it is based on two recurring themes: weird genetics and - to a way lesser degree - cyberpunk (Engine City, Cyborg Superman, etc.). Of course, it was the 1990s - they are the same recurring themes from TMNT (if you compare the similarities - the villains, the recognizable motifs - between TMNT and Byrne/Jurgens Superman you could actually get surprised at finding how many they are). But - déjà vu aside - writers and editors were very, VERY good at building an entire mythology on it. In fact, I'd say that it is such a strong and robust mythology that it didn't need anything from the Silver Age. If they had had an overwhelming necessity of reintroducing some silly elements from SA, they could have done it without recycling anything pre-Crisis or forcing it into the stories. All they had to do was finding a way to make the SA elements they were interested in coherent with the post-Crisis origin. Which is actually what Jurgens/Kesel/Simonson and later Kelly/Loeb were doing. Heck, even the Superman 2000 pitch is about that!

What's even funnier is that 3-4 reboots later and countless attempts at shoving the SA down the readers' throat, post-Crisis Superman actually won. You may find some Silver or Golden Age elements in nowadays' stories, but they are mostly aesthetic references or vague cameos. However, the Kents are alive, Luthor is a billionaire, Clark and Lois are married, Kelex, Eradicator and Cyborg Superman are back and quite popular... Basically, most of what we got post-Crisis still defines modern-day Superman (as far as I know, the only elements which would have needed some serious work to be reintroduced are Zod and Kara Zor-El; bizarrely, Jon is actually a bit easier IMHO). They could just fully reconnect to Post-Crisis, pre-Birthright Superman and they could solve most of their continuity problems. Yes, we'd "lose" 15 years of stories, but hey, they don't mention them anymore anyway.

I disagree


Pure Post-crisis Superman is dead


What we have today is a weird amalgamation of Superman’s pre-crisis and post-crisis years mashed together in a composite character

Lex is the perfect summary of Superman today

A mad scientist with post-crisis money


We are in the age of composite characters

An era where multiple versions of a single character are mixed and matched together to be their “ideal selves”

[Bored at 3:00AM]

What's even funnier is that 3-4 reboots later and countless attempts at shoving the SA down the readers' throat, post-Crisis Superman actually won. You may find some Silver or Golden Age elements in nowadays' stories, but they are mostly aesthetic references or vague cameos. However, the Kents are alive, Luthor is a billionaire, Clark and Lois are married, Kelex, Eradicator and Cyborg Superman are back and quite popular... Basically, most of what we got post-Crisis still defines modern-day Superman (as far as I know, the only elements which would have needed some serious work to be reintroduced are Zod and Kara Zor-El; bizarrely, Jon is actually a bit easier IMHO). They could just fully reconnect to Post-Crisis, pre-Birthright Superman and they could solve most of their continuity problems. Yes, we'd "lose" 15 years of stories, but hey, they don't mention them anymore anyway.

I think the strongest elements of each reboot/revamp/reshuffle always end up remaining while the dumb ideas fall away. Everything that was great about the Post-Crisis Superman has carried on, or been reintroduced, and the same is largely true of the Pre-Crisis Superman.

I don't think the Superman books need to reboot anymore or concern themselves with figuring out specific stories are in or out of continuity anymore. The broad strokes are now there, and they can reference past stories as necessary, or not. They just need to focus on telling good stories. As long as editorial has a clear idea of what direction they want to take the character, I'm happy with them not rehashing the origin yet again, only to complicate things further.

The main sticking points were the nature of Krypton, the survival of the Kents, and Luthor growing up in Smallville, all of which have been settled. Within those goal posts, there's plenty for creators to play around with if they so choose.

And the nature of anthologies like Red & Blue allow creators to play outside those lines if they so choose, as King did by having a dead Pa Kent in his story.

[Vordan]

What's even funnier is that 3-4 reboots later and countless attempts at shoving the SA down the readers' throat, post-Crisis Superman actually won. You may find some Silver or Golden Age elements in nowadays' stories, but they are mostly aesthetic references or vague cameos. However, the Kents are alive, Luthor is a billionaire, Clark and Lois are married, Kelex, Eradicator and Cyborg Superman are back and quite popular... Basically, most of what we got post-Crisis still defines modern-day Superman (as far as I know, the only elements which would have needed some serious work to be reintroduced are Zod and Kara Zor-El; bizarrely, Jon is actually a bit easier IMHO). They could just fully reconnect to Post-Crisis, pre-Birthright Superman and they could solve most of their continuity problems. Yes, we'd "lose" 15 years of stories, but hey, they don't mention them anymore anyway.

Disagree on that point. The Kents are “alive” currently but irrelevant, not at all like their heavy usage Post-Crisis. They may even end up dying again (and I fully expect them to now that Clark has become an elder statesman himself). Henshaw and the Eradicator have been basically irrelevant since Rebirth ended. Luthor isn’t the same guy as the Post Crisis Byrne version at all anymore, he’s sort of a combo of all the best parts of the various Luthors. The current Brainiac is an updated version of the Silver Age guy from Johns. Metallo is the Johns version. Sam Lane is the Johns version (although he’s also dead). The Legion of Superheroes is the “canon” future again. A lot of concepts from the New 52 are being used. Kal was a natural birth and Krypton wasn’t a cold and emotionless place of logic.

And of course Kara, Krypto, the Fortress of Solitude, Zod and his family, the United Planets, Clark telling Jon he thinks of himself as an alien (completely anathema to the Byrne take), Clark founding the Authority, this isn’t stuff the Post Crisis guy would do.

What we have now more closely resembles the Johns/Busiek era where you had the writers cherry-picking from every era to build up this sort of “composite era”. PKJ has brought back Gerber’s Pre Crisis Phantom Zone mini into canon with the return of Aethyr as a recent example. Is the Post Crisis era a strong influence? Totally, it forms a lot of the “core”, but there’s a lot of other DNA from other eras.

[Myskin]

I think the strongest elements of each reboot/revamp/reshuffle always end up remaining while the dumb ideas fall away. Everything that was great about the Post-Crisis Superman has carried on, or been reintroduced, and the same is largely true of the Pre-Crisis Superman.

I don't think the Superman books need to reboot anymore or concern themselves with figuring out specific stories are in or out of continuity anymore. The broad strokes are now there, and they can reference past stories as necessary, or not. They just need to focus on telling good stories. As long as editorial has a clear idea of what direction they want to take the character, I'm happy with them not rehashing the origin yet again, only to complicate things further.

The main sticking points were the nature of Krypton, the survival of the Kents, and Luthor growing up in Smallville, all of which have been settled. Within those goal posts, there's plenty for creators to play around with if they so choose.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I am not expecting them to bring post-Crisis back in its entirety, because it would mean admitting that the past 15 years have been basically useless in terms of worldbuilding, or even detrimental to the character. Which they were (the few good things which gave us since Birthright are completely uninfluential regarding current stories).
As for what they kept in the current series... Make a list of the distinct features which characterized post-Crisis Superman. Then make another list for Silver Age Superman. How many elements have been kept from one version, how many have been kept from the other version and - above all - how many elements are really, really important in current stories? They kept the Kents alive, Conner Kent, ALL the details from the Death of Superman (including Eradicator, Doomsday, Cyborg Superman, Steel, etc), Lois and Superman married, no Legion for young Superman (and we don't know whether he has really been Superboy - I doubt it, though), Bibbo (I wouldn't include him among the "important" things if it wasn't for some recent backups in regular series), Luthor as a corrupt tycoon. Do I need to continue?
Now, let's see how many elements did they keep from the Silver Age: we have Silver Age Supergirl and Krypto - but, as Tom King recently said, they don't know what the hell to do with Supergirl; as for Krypto, he had already come back BEFORE Birthright (as well as the Phantom Zone and many classic elements). Luthor and Clark have been friends in Smallville, but - apart from the fact that this is a detail from the Smallville TV series rather than the Silver Age (during the SA, Luthor was Superboy's friend rather than Clark) - how many times has this detail had any importance whatsoever in current stories? They brought back classic Kandor, sure, but again - does it really count as far as current stories are concerned? Isn't it that they got Kandor back for a couple of pages just to destroy it? And yes, we have Zod, who is probably the ONLY recurring Silver Age feature of any weight in current stories (technically speaking he's not SA Zod though, he's Superman II Zod, but still).

So basically I'd say that current Superman is not a mix of the best of the previous eras, as they sometimes pompously present it, but in fact 0% Golden Age elements, 10% Silver Age elements and 90% post-Crisis elements. Or maybe I should say, watered down post-Crisis elements. Because DC was so smart that they completely erased Byrne Krypton and all of the complex mythology which had been built on it (seriously, a huge number of storylines wouldn't really make sense with a different origin, including the Death storyline), but in return they gave us a very generic Krypton and a Jor-El with no distinct psychological features at all (unless you count Mr Oz, but isn't that guy basically an alternate version of the character? And are they bringing him back anytime soon? I doubt it). But hey, Kryptonians now wear headbands. Hooray!

"Buuuut... I don't like cold, post-Crisis Krypton!". That's not the point. Apart from the fact that a lot of people enjoyed it and the most influential one for most modern Superman fans, it was SOMETHING. By the way, I wasn't a huge fan myself (I may change my idea should I reread it though), but it's hard not to acknowledge how well-done it was. And this goes beyond individual tastes. Someone might have some issues with it, but it was distinct, unique, and the worldbuilding was extremely accurate and really influential on the stories. The current, generic Krypton we have now (together with all of the other elements which they keep vague because they don't understand whether they are still canon or not themselves) is NOTHING.

The idea they are promoting now - that Superman writers have more freedom now because they can reference a lot of past elements without getting worried about continuity - is just PR rubbish, and a complete nonsense. These are serialized comics. Serialized works NEED a specific continuity, some kind of distinct worldbuilding. It's in their nature. Basically all of serialized works are built on this concept. Even Superman TAS had a specific continuity/worldbuilding. Writers NEED to worry about continuity. Unless they 100% change their line of comic books into a series of unconnected graphic novels - which may even happen someday, but it isn't happening right now - they should keep some semblance of coherence in their stories. And it may even be an updated version of the Silver Age, or a mix of Silver Age and Golden Age, or something completely new altogether, but it should be SOMETHING, and they should take their time - I am talking in terms of years - to build on it.

The funny fact is that having very specific boundaries in the Post-Crisis was actually a resource for the writers rather than an obstacle, because if they wanted to build something ON that mythology they had very solid foundations. And if they wanted to introduce something which was NOT coherent with that specific bible, well, they had to be even more creative to bypass the obstacle. For example, since Superman was the only surviving Kryptonian they had to re-introduce Supergirl by recreating her from scratch. I have recently reread a couple of issues of PAD's Supergirl series, and I am amazed at how creative it was. It obviously hasn't many classic Supergirl themes, but it is the closest we got to a Vertigo Super-character title. There are demonic characters, the first chthonic vampire and one of the characters is God himself with a baseball bat and a bowler hat. It was not classic Supergirl, but it was unique and people actually enjoyed it - 80 issues, and IMHO it could have actually continued it if not for Loeb's reintroduction of Supergirl, which probably forced the cancellation of Matrix Supergirl. Let's think of what the return of classic Supergirl actually gave us in terms of stories since the days of Superman/Batman. Is there anything really comparable in terms of originality to PAD's series?

And when I seriously think about it, I realize that there is basically nothing they couldn't have reintroduced WITHOUT discarding the post-Crisis continuity (including Authority, the Fortress, robot Brainiac - which was in the Superman 2000 pitch by the way - and probably even Zod and criminal Luthor - he also had his own Legion of Doom in Morrison's JLA, which was a distinct post-Crisis series). They may be trying to sell the current situation as some kind of deliverance, but IMHO they just spent the latest 15 years in losing credibility AND readers.

[Vathlonian]

Oh, don't get me wrong, I am not expecting them to bring post-Crisis back in its entirety, because it would mean admitting that the past 15 years have been basically useless in terms of worldbuilding, or even detrimental to the character. Which they were (the few good things which gave us since Birthright are completely uninfluential regarding current stories).
As for what they kept in the current series... Make a list of the distinct features which characterized post-Crisis Superman. Then make another list for Silver Age Superman. How many elements have been kept from one version, how many have been kept from the other version and - above all - how many elements are really, really important in current stories? They kept the Kents alive, Conner Kent, ALL the details from the Death of Superman (including Eradicator, Doomsday, Cyborg Superman, Steel, etc), Lois and Superman married, no Legion for young Superman (and we don't know whether he has really been Superboy - I doubt it, though), Bibbo (I wouldn't include him among the "important" things if it wasn't for some recent backups in regular series), Luthor as a corrupt tycoon. Do I need to continue?
Now, let's see how many elements did they keep from the Silver Age: we have Silver Age Supergirl and Krypto - but, as Tom King recently said, they don't know what the hell to do with Supergirl; as for Krypto, he had already come back BEFORE Birthright (as well as the Phantom Zone and many classic elements). Luthor and Clark have been friends in Smallville, but - apart from the fact that this is a detail from the Smallville TV series rather than the Silver Age (during the SA, Luthor was Superboy's friend rather than Clark) - how many times has this detail had any importance whatsoever in current stories? They brought back classic Kandor, sure, but again - does it really count as far as current stories are concerned? Isn't it that they got Kandor back for a couple of pages just to destroy it? And yes, we have Zod, who is probably the ONLY recurring Silver Age feature of any weight in current stories (technically speaking he's not SA Zod though, he's Superman II Zod, but still).

So basically I'd say that current Superman is not a mix of the best of the previous eras, as they sometimes pompously present it, but in fact 0% Golden Age elements, 10% Silver Age elements and 90% post-Crisis elements. Or maybe I should say, watered down post-Crisis elements. Because DC was so smart that they completely erased Byrne Krypton and all of the complex mythology which had been built on it (seriously, a huge number of storylines wouldn't really make sense with a different origin, including the Death storyline), but in exchange they gave us a very generic Krypton and a Jor-El with no distinct psychological features at all (unless you count Mr Oz, but isn't that guy basically an alternate version of the character? And are they bringing him back anytime soon? I doubt it). But hey, Kryptonians now wear headbands. Hooray!

"Buuuut... I don't like cold, post-Crisis Krypton!". That's not the point. Apart from the fact that a lot of people enjoyed it (and I mean A LOT), it was SOMETHING. By the way, I wasn't a huge fan myself (I may change my idea should I reread it though), but it's hard not to recognize how well-done it was. And this goes beyond individual tastes. Someone might have some issues with it, but it was distinct, unique, and the worldbuilding was extremely accurate and really influential on the stories. The current, generic Krypton we have now (together with all of the other elements which they keep vague because they don't understand whether they are still canon or not themselves) is NOTHING.

The idea they are promoting now - that Superman writers have more freedom now because they can reference a lot of past elements without getting worried about continuity - is just PR rubbish, and a complete nonsense. These are serialized comics. Serialized works NEED a specific continuity, some kind of distinct worldbuilding. It's in their nature. Basically all of serialized works are built on this concept. Even Superman TAS had a specific continuity/worldbuilding. Writers NEED to worry about continuity. Unless they 100% change their line of comic books into a series of unconnected graphic novels - which may even happen someday, but it isn't happening right now - they should keep some semblance of coherence in their stories. And it may even be an updated version of the Silver Age, or a mix of Silver Age and Golden Age, or something completely new altogether, but it should be SOMETHING, and they should take their time - I am talking in terms of years - to build on it.

The funny fact is that having very specific boundaries in the Post-Crisis was actually a resource for the writers rather than an obstacle, because if they wanted to build something ON that mythology they had very solid foundations. And if they wanted to introduce something which was NOT coherent with that specific bible, well, they had to be even more creative to bypass the obstacle. For example, since Superman was the only surviving Kryptonian they had to re-introduce Supergirl by recreating her from scratch. I have recently reread a couple of issues of PAD's Supergirl series, and I am amazed at how creative it was. It obviously hasn't many classic Supergirl themes, but it is the closest we got to a Vertigo Super-character title. There are demonic characters, the first chthonic vampire and one of the characters is God himself with a baseball bat and a bowler hat. It was not classic Supergirl, but it was unique and people actually enjoyed it - 80 issues, and IMHO it could have actually continued it if not for Loeb's reintroduction of Supergirl, which probably forced the cancellation of Matrix Supergirl. Let's think of what the return of classic Supergirl actually gave us in terms of stories since the days of Superman/Batman. Is there anything really comparable in terms of originality to PAD's series?

And when I seriously think about it, I realize that there is basically nothing they couldn't have reintroduced WITHOUT discarding the post-Crisis continuity (including Authority, the Fortress, robot Brainiac - which was in the Superman 2000 pitch by the way - and probably even Zod and criminal Luthor - he also had his own Legion of Doom in Morrison's JLA, which was a distinct post-Crisis series). They may be trying to sell the current situation as some kind of deliverance, but IMHO they just spent the latest 15 years in losing credibility AND readers.

Most of post-crisis has been stripped to the bone with nothing but aesthetics and certain characters…most of whom are being rendered irrelevant or have been for a while

Clark Kent is still Superboy who had adventures with the legion which is going to get reinforced ONCE AGAIN since doomsday clock wasn’t clear to certain people

So many pre-crisis elements are becoming relevant again

While post-crisis elements either adapt or die(Conner being shipped off to earth three)

[Myskin]

Disagree on that point. The Kents are “alive” currently but irrelevant, not at all like their heavy usage Post-Crisis.

They are alive though. They may not use them as much, but they are there and there has not been the "passing of the torch" moment from dying Pa Kent to Superboy, which was a distinct Pre-Crisis element.

Henshaw and the Eradicator have been basically irrelevant since Rebirth ended.

Come on. They were everywhere - as well as Death-related details - less than 2 years ago. Eradicator had his own arc in JL, too - in 2020, if I remember it well. Even in the post-Crisis era they took some break from using them. It's not that they appeared in EVERY single story.

Luthor isn’t the same guy as the Post Crisis Byrne version at all anymore, he’s sort of a combo of all the best parts of the various Luthors.

They had already got there in the Loeb & Kelly era, without discarding the post-Crisis origin. They had also reintroduced that awful armor and the Legion of Doom (kind of).

The current Brainiac is an updated version of the Silver Age guy from Johns.

Again, there is no actual need for a newer origin to get that specific version of the character. In the Superman 2000 pitch they suggest a way to get a classic robot Brainiac back by evolving him from post-Crisis Brainiac.

Metallo is the Johns version.

See the comment about Brainiac. There are more versions of Metallo in the post-Crisis era than Superman's reboots in the latest 15 years. By the way, isn't he dead and basically useless, too?

Sam Lane is the Johns version (although he’s also dead).

Fair enough, even if: 1- He was a general in post-Crisis continuity too; 2- Johns' Lane was actually a full villain; 3- He's dead (at one point he was dead in the Loeb era, too, if I remember it well).

The Legion of Superheroes is the “canon” future again.

But it's a future Superman has no place in. The current Legion includes Jon Kent, not Superman.

A lot of concepts from the New 52 are being used.

Which ones? The only one I can think of is Xa-Du... Maybe. The most distinct elements - the Wonder Woman romance, Superbro, dead Kents - have been erased.

Kal was a natural birth and Krypton wasn’t a cold and emotionless place of logic.

True, but after the disappearance of cold Krypton we didn't get much in return. See my previous post.

And of course Kara

See my previous post.

Krypto

Classic Krypto had already come back in the post-Crisis era.

the Fortress of Solitude

Already back - in a lot of different versions - in the post-Crisis era.

Zod and his family

True. But I cannot think of a reason why it was IMPOSSIBLE to bring him back without discarding the post-Crisis origin. it was a creative challenge, but it's the writers' job.

the United Planets

See my comment about the Legion.

Clark telling Jon he thinks of himself as an alien

This is true, but here's the thing. It was not impossible to reach a similar point WITHOUT discarding post-Crisis origin, and creating an interesting storyline upon it - possibly more interesting than the classic "you are not one of them" stuff from the movie. There is an underrated point in the Superman 2000 pitch proposal, in which - coherently with the Byrne origin - they suggest that Superman is actually some kind of metamorphosis of Clark's. Basically we have Clark as a normal teenager in his younger years, and then his powers come out and he basically builds a newer, alien identity - something which would happen again later in his career, with a second power update. It's basically a mix of sexual maturation and Cronenberg transformation, but with no horror. Of all the details in the original proposal, this is probably the one I would have liked to see the most.

Clark founding the Authority, this isn’t stuff the Post Crisis guy would do.

That's debatable, sorry. It's not something which one specific version of character would do and another one wouldn't. They could have created a similar storyline for post-Crisis Superman. It depends on the writer more than the character.

[Myskin]

Just one quick clarification.
From my previous posts, someone might think that I am a diehard fan of the post-Crisis era, but I am not (even if as time went by I have come to appreciate some specific elements, and I admire the worldbuilding in general). My point is that the more I think about it, the more I realize that there was no need to discard everything the way they did just to bring some old-fashioned elements back. They threw the baby out with the bathwater, and may I be damned if I understand why (even if there were still some people frustrated at CoIE, I strongly doubt that the demand for Krypto's return or getting the headbands back was so high that they felt the need to act like elephants in a China shop to bring them back). The post-Crisis era was consistent, coherent and modern enough (probably more modern than what we have today) to support any evolution of the character and even any revision of old concepts. Possibly with an even more creative approach, as it happened with PAD's Supergirl. And if for some reason they didn't want to use that specific, post-Crisis approach, fine, but they should have taken the time and the effort to develop something equally strong and coherent to lay the foundations for whatever they had in mind. Now, if you think that we are currently living in some kind of apex Superman era because they have basically given up understanding what is canon and what's not and potentially they could mention all the past Super-period (no matter how much they contradict each other), you are free to do so. What I see is just a huge mess, with no consistence, no discernible shape, no direction, I think that the "everything happened" or "it happened, but differently" rules are jokes, and I also think that this editorial approach largely contributed to the decline of the character and the current, neverending loss of readers (including myself). Whatever their strategy was, it may have worked to a degree in terms of media synergy, but it has been poison for the comic books.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

If we’re going to grade on a curve and count all the Pre-Crisis elements that got reintroduced Post-Crisis, then, yeah, there’s a whole lot of Post-Crisis stuff in the current version, but I think that’s a reductive way to look at it.

You’re also casually dismissing some major stuff because it doesn’t fit the argument you’re trying to make.

Since 2006, Jor-El has absolutely had a very defined personality, even taking into account the cul de sac that was Morrison’s reboot. Johns, Jurgens, and Bendis kept revealing new aspects of Jor-El, but that was clearly the same guy put in an impossible situation trying to deal with it as best he could. Lara, less so, but that’s more a sign of most comics writers being shit at writing female characters.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I think we’ve derailed this thread enough

Anyone want to start a “How important is continuity to Superman?” thread?

[Myskin]

I think we’ve derailed this thread enough

Anyone want to start a “How important is continuity to Superman?” thread?

Not me, man. Thanks, but I have made this argument too many times to get involved into such conversation again. I said what I had to say, now you can continue with Red & Blue as far as I am concerned.