PKJ Action Comics Discussion and Spoilers

[rpmaluki]

Like you said, and I've said elsewhere, I'm just not interested in DC's current direction for Jon. For the first two years of his existence, I was all in and genuinely excited for what DC had in store for Jon, but apparently what they had in store was seemingly in direct contradiction to what made me and so many others get in invested in Jon in the first place. For me that's the real head-scratcher.

Also, for me personally, I don't like being told and expected to be something simply because one of my parent's is that thing. My dad is a farmer but at no point was I ever expected to take his place. If I ever were to become a farmer, it would be because I had lived my life and explored and experimented with different life paths and decided on being a farmer and not at all because that is what my father was, so Jon being told he has to be Superman when he's had no time to be his own person both in and out of universe just rubs me the wrong the way. If he became Superman after 20 years, I'd be OK with that because we had 20 years of stories of Jon being himself. Instead, he's reached his logical endpoint in only half a decade and I see no future for that direction. It's like trying to wring water from a rock.

This is how I feel about Jon right now. It's not that I don't want him to be Superman, I do but rather I want him to live his life first, experience things, life for himself for a bit before making him Superman. I want him to want to step up to the plate because he's tried everything else under the sun and in the end this is what makes sense to him, when it's time as opposed to being forced there because his dad is dying and they need a ready made replacement who conveniently is the son. I hate that this doesn't feel right, not that it never could be but that it's not the right time for it to happen. It's being rushed and I hate it. I think I could have looked forwards to Taylor's SSoK but because of this rushing to make him THE Superman, I'm not so keen. He's already a hero, I want to read about Jon Kent becoming a man not what they are pushing. Edit: I'm not saying I don't want him doing heroic things in the book just because I said "man" I mean I want him to be his own person first.

[Superlad93]

I want him to want to step up to the plate because he's tried everything else under the sun and in the end this is what makes sense to him, when it's time as opposed to being forced there because his dad is dying and they need a ready made replacement who conveniently is the son.

I don't want to start a whole debate or anything, but....aren't you just describing what heroic storytelling is on a one-to-one level? Generally speaking in most fiction, it's a hero who doesn't think they're ready, or doesn't even want to go in a specific direction, but fate and a sense of responsibility have other plans, and the hero has to rise to an occasion that seems insurmountable to them on a physical and emotional level. A hero that's "tried everything else under the sun and in the end this makes sense to him" isn't the start of a dynamic story, but rather it's typically the end. I mean, what's the arc? What's the tension? Just learning to be Superman? I'm sure he'll do great at it then since he's already done everything else, and there's no tension of him second guessing since, as you put it, "this makes sense".

The best comparison I find for Jon is Simba. He starts out wanting to be king/Superman not understanding the full weight of the title, has a coming of age where he starts to understand the implications of the title and what it means in relation to his dad, and then is forced to take up the title because his kingdom/planet need a true new king/Superman.

I feel like if you take away the sense of unreadyness and doubt, and replace it with someone who is ready-willing-and-able to step up then you get a less dynamic character. You certainly strip Jon of any sort of inherent emotional arc to start with. It's why Spider-Man is such a powerful symbol of heroism to most people on the planet. Going when the stars are all lined up for you, and all you gotta do is say yes is less dynamic and heroic to most people than accepting the call to action even when you're not ready and you don't want to.

And to your final comment: THIS is the story of him becoming a man. He's 17 and now going to college. These are the years that define who you'll become past the formative. That's why I think making SuperMAN about a young man in college is one of the smartest ideas DC's stumbled onto. You have a parallel progression in the sense that as he learns to be Superman, he's learning to be a man/adult in his own right.

[Blue22]

This is how I feel about Jon right now. It's not that I don't want him to be Superman, I do but rather I want him to live his life first, experience things, life for himself for a bit before making him Superman. I want him to want to step up to the plate because he's tried everything else under the sun and in the end this is what makes sense to him, when it's time as opposed to being forced there because his dad is dying and they need a ready made replacement who conveniently is the son. I hate that this doesn't feel right, not that it never could be but that it's not the right time for it to happen. It's being rushed and I hate it. I think I could have looked forwards to Taylor's SSoK but because of this rushing to make him THE Superman, I'm not so keen. He's already a hero, I want to read about Jon Kent becoming a man not what they are pushing. Edit: I'm not saying I don't want him doing heroic things in the book just because I said "man" I mean I want him to be his own person first.

It always puts a smile on my face when I see other people express my exact feelings on something. This all pretty much hits the nail on the head. So much of Jon's life that I was looking forward to seeing got skipped over and it just feels like we're left at the end of a story that had a great beginning but no middle. It all just feels so....unearned. And I don't really have any interest in them trying to make up for lost time now.

You can try and have his big "coming of age story" now and it looks like that's what PKJ and Taylor want. But it's just not the same. It's not special anymore. He's not special anymore. He's just every other young adult hero finding his place in the world now. Except his place was literally handed to him on a silver platter. To the point where he's even told by his best friend that he never had a choice (and that was apparently supposed to be a heartwarming scene?)

And I think what really hurts this whole thing even more is how much of his own style he's been losing for the sake of becoming more and more of a little New 52 Clark. They could have at least let him keep the costume that he had in Bendis' run. Sure that version of Jon sucked ass (and good lord I am not looking forward to Bendis getting him again in Justice League. I've been somewhat enjoying that book but if Jon's coming over I am going to drop it) but his design was REALLY fucking good. Like...they really wanna drive home that he's replacing Clark.

And I do feel bad for the broken record that I've become in these threads. Especially with folks like Superlad who are so excited for this book. You're great, Lad. For your sake, I genuinely hope it ends up being everything you want and more. But I ain't getting on the train. Much as I love Taylor and everything he's done for characters like Nightwing and Jean Grey, there's always gonna be that part of me who's really hoping this book falls flat on its face. Hell, that same part of me is wondering whether or not I should even bother giving it my usual 3-4 issue chance.

[rpmaluki]

I don't want to start a whole debate or anything, but....aren't you just describing what heroic storytelling is on a one-to-one level? Generally speaking in most fiction, it's a hero who doesn't think they're ready, or doesn't even want to go in a specific direction, but fate and a sense of responsibility have other plans, and the hero has to rise to an occasion that seems insurmountable to them on a physical and emotional level. A hero that's "tried everything else under the sun and in the end this makes sense to him" isn't the start of a dynamic story, but rather it's typically the end. I mean, what's the arc? What's the tension? Just learning to be Superman? I'm sure he'll do great at it then since he's already done everything else, and there's no tension of him second guessing since, as you put it, "this makes sense".

The best comparison I find for Jon is Simba. He starts out wanting to be king/Superman not understanding the full weight of the title, has a coming of age where he starts to understand the implications of the title and what it means in relation to his dad, and then is forced to take up the title because his kingdom/planet need a true new king/Superman.

I feel like if you take away the sense of unreadyness and doubt, and replace it with someone who is ready-willing-and-able to step up then you get a less dynamic character. You certainly strip Jon of any sort of inherent emotional arc to start with. It's why Spider-Man is such a powerful symbol of heroism to most people on the planet. Going when the stars are all lined up for you, and all you gotta do is say yes is less dynamic and heroic to most people than accepting the call to action even when you're not ready and you don't want to.

And to your final comment: THIS is the story of him becoming a man. He's 17 and now going to college. These are the years that define who you'll become past the formative. That's why I think making SuperMAN about a young man in college is one of the smartest ideas DC's stumbled onto. You have a parallel progression in the sense that as he learns to be Superman, he's learning to be a man/adult in his own right.

You do well to explain things, unfortunately it doesn't change my feelings. I will add this isn't about Jon alone its also about Clark, especially him. I dont like this direction. I hate it. I love them both, one more than the other if I'm honest and I hate what they are doing.

[Superlad93]

You do well to explain things, unfortunately it doesn't change my feelings. I will add this isn't about Jon alone its also about Clark, especially him. I dont like this direction. I hate it. I love them both, one more than the other if I'm honest and I hate what they are doing.

I appreciate that. You've always been very good in explaining your views as well, and I didn't mean for that to change yours or anyone else's mind. You're more than entitled to make your own mind up about what you find entertaining. All I was giving was the viewpoint of someone who is into this stuff.

To your Clark concern though, I'll just say that it's not as if Clark isn't going to be Superman anymore. He is. His role is just expanding outside of Earth, and I think that presents a very special sort of situation that can only be created in the Superman family.

I lay it out here in this thread for a long version (post #528) https://community.cbr.com/showthread...on-2021/page36

The (somewhat) short version is Jon looking after the whole Earth is akin to Hawkeye in Fractions run looking after his apartment building, Nightwing in Taylor's run looking after his city, and Spider-Man in Taylor's run looking after his neighborhood...but on a MUCH bigger scale. This is specifically achieved because looking after *just* Earth becomes relatively small time when compared to Clark up in space looking after the whole universe. At that point Earth may as well be a tightknit apartment building, just another city, or a neighborhood in need of looking after. You heighten Clark up to mythic levels, and you make Jon and the Earth smaller and more intimate, thus you get stories that deal more with systemic issues because Jon's story on Earth is one of community. This is what all the solicitations for SOK seem to point to, and Taylor is obviously the writer of two of the three of the examples I gave.

[Sam]

I think it's becoming clear this isn't something happening exclusively with Jon either. Jackson Hyde also seems to be going in this direction. Potentially Andy too. It just seems like DC is just set on introducing this next generation of Justice Leaguers, which is fine in theory, but the convoluted hoops they are going through to position some of these characters (especially Jon) is filled with rushed story points and illogical choices.

Frankly, comparing Jon to Jackson further demonstrates this. Like Jon, Jackson really should be at the beginning of his superhero career and wouldn't seem ready to take on the mantle. However, Arthur's newly born child creates a very good reason Arthur would want to pass the mantle on to someone else. Granted, why the next Aquaman isn't Garth is a natural flaw in the logic, but still, if the writers are able to acknowledge that fact that Jackson is being given more responsibility than he should have sooner then he should have it, the story of Jackson becoming Aquaman could work very well. Point is, it's a much easier path to get him to that position.

In Jon's case, however, they've already had to introduce so much hand-wavy nonsense to get him to where he is now, it feels like he is becoming Superman not for any natural reason, but simply because DC wants him to be, which really sucks because he had such a strong character arc during the Rebirth era. Everything since then has just stripped away any natural throughline and any investment I had in the character.

[sifighter]

I think Jackson was bound to happen anyway given how his more popular version in Young Justice is currently Aquaman in that universe, also I hate to say it but everyone kind of disregards Garth at this point. I mean there is legitimately no reason he couldn't be involved in Titans Academy.

[oneveryfineday]

Dunno how this





is a greater self-assertion of identity than this



???

No, but I actually love that Jon goes from that kid who fantasized about becoming Superman (reflecting a lot of our innocent child-like desires), to a young adult on the precipice on actually BECOMING Superman and freaking out about it because he’s old enough to finally understand the implications and responsibilities of the job. It’s like when you’re a kid and can’t wait to be an adult, then when you’re finally one you realize that it’s a lot harder than it seems. Character development!

PKJ has put in a lot of care these past few months layering Jon with a lot of these contradictions that give for a richer character and interesting dramatic irony. It’s pretty crazy that the thesis of the Death of Superman—that there could only ever be one Superman—is argued by Jon, the walking, talking *antithesis* of it. Not only that, but Jon has been disagreeing with his dad on several fronts, from his readiness for the mantle to the situation with the Kryptonian refugees. PKJ even made a point via Clark that Jon should see himself as more than just the “son of Superman”. Jon is clearly being written more as a foil to Clark, rather than a mirror like the Rebirth version was. I mean, Super Sons was basically “SuperBat but as kids”.

So I don’t really get how Jon suddenly is not his own person when he’s older, especially when his arc so far is him wrestling with his identity in relation to the expectations set on him. Taylor even said in an interview that his Superman book is about Jon finding his own way.

And, well, if you’re going to have two Supermen…the most interesting thing you can do narratively is contrast them against each other. That’s how I’d approach it anyway.

I don't want to start a whole debate or anything, but....aren't you just describing what heroic storytelling is on a one-to-one level? Generally speaking in most fiction, it's a hero who doesn't think they're ready, or doesn't even want to go in a specific direction, but fate and a sense of responsibility have other plans, and the hero has to rise to an occasion that seems insurmountable to them on a physical and emotional level. A hero that's "tried everything else under the sun and in the end this makes sense to him" isn't the start of a dynamic story, but rather it's typically the end. I mean, what's the arc? What's the tension? Just learning to be Superman? I'm sure he'll do great at it then since he's already done everything else, and there's no tension of him second guessing since, as you put it, "this makes sense".

The best comparison I find for Jon is Simba. He starts out wanting to be king/Superman not understanding the full weight of the title, has a coming of age where he starts to understand the implications of the title and what it means in relation to his dad, and then is forced to take up the title because his kingdom/planet need a true new king/Superman.

I feel like if you take away the sense of unreadyness and doubt, and replace it with someone who is ready-willing-and-able to step up then you get a less dynamic character. You certainly strip Jon of any sort of inherent emotional arc to start with. It's why Spider-Man is such a powerful symbol of heroism to most people on the planet. Going when the stars are all lined up for you, and all you gotta do is say yes is less dynamic and heroic to most people than accepting the call to action even when you're not ready and you don't want to.

And to your final comment: THIS is the story of him becoming a man. He's 17 and now going to college. These are the years that define who you'll become past the formative. That's why I think making SuperMAN about a young man in college is one of the smartest ideas DC's stumbled onto. You have a parallel progression in the sense that as he learns to be Superman, he's learning to be a man/adult in his own right.

Yeah, I agree with every word of this.

Typically in superhero stories some level of tragedy kickstarts our hero into taking up the mission, and in Peter’s case it’s the death of Uncle Ben, and in Jon’s case it’s his dad dying. And the circumstances that put Jon here are less than ideal and he’s forced into the role earlier than he would like. The inciting incident is meant to be uncomfortable and be the driving force for our hero throughout all their stories, even if it’s not explicitly mentioned all the time. The way Jon took up the Superman mantle worked in DCeased and it’s working for me here.

[Vordan]

I think it's becoming clear this isn't something happening exclusively with Jon either. Jackson Hyde also seems to be going in this direction. Potentially Andy too.

It was always part of 5G, DC is just doing that initiative more slowly than Didio’s “all at once” relaunch plans. Jace Fox is getting his own ongoing drawn by Copiel, I Am Batman, so they’re committing to Jace too. Jess is probably going to pop up in the Infinite Frontier mini considering they’re a Williamson creation. Jo is in Thorne’s Green Lantern as the last GL (besides maybe Hal) whose ring still works. Would not be surprised if Yara eventually graduates to Wonder Woman sometime soon considering she’s in her 20s already per Joelle.

[Korath]

Snip

Thank you for articulating my thoughts better than I ever hope to be able to !

[witchboy]

I feel like this aging up of Jon and making him Superman is boxing in his future potential as a character.
Eventually they're going to bring Clark back from space and want him to be Earth's Superman again. So what do you do with Jon then?
He had a really popular unique role as a pre-teen in Super-Sons and as a supporting character for Superman. No one else could have those kind of stories. You had adult Clark, teen Conner and kid Jon. (And Supergirl). It worked and was sustainable.
Now there's going to inevitably come a point when Jon is superfluous and they'll write him out. Ideally they'll do some timey wimey hokey pokey and get the kid Jon back. If they don't just do another reboot (please no more reboots)
I loved Lois and Clark having a son but they've rushed his whole life away in a few short years.

[kryptonian]

I feel like this aging up of Jon and making him Superman is boxing in his future potential as a character.
Eventually they're going to bring Clark back from space and want him to be Earth's Superman again. So what do you do with Jon then?
He had a really popular unique role as a pre-teen in Super-Sons and as a supporting character for Superman. No one else could have those kind of stories. You had adult Clark, teen Conner and kid Jon. (And Supergirl). It worked and was sustainable.
Now there's going to inevitably come a point when Jon is superfluous and they'll write him out. Ideally they'll do some timey wimey hokey pokey and get the kid Jon back. If they don't just do another reboot (please no more reboots)
I loved Lois and Clark having a son but they've rushed his whole life away in a few short years.

They will never do another hard reboot after the new 52 disaster

And they won’t write out a character who single handily carried a dead brand(legion of superheroes) on his back that consistently sold 30,000 issues


The only realistic scenario I see for Jon is a slight de-aging to 14


And that is assuming that the writers view him as superfluous


Marvel seems to be doing well with two Spider-Men without worrying about their similarities

[witchboy]

They will never do another hard reboot after the new 52 disaster

And they won’t write out a character who single handily carried a dead brand(legion of superheroes) on his back that consistently sold 30,000 issues


The only realistic scenario I see for Jon is a slight de-aging to 14


And that is assuming that the writers view him as superfluous


Marvel seems to be doing well with two Spider-Men without worrying about their similarities

Moving Jon back even to 14 would be an improvement. I love the character, I just don't want him to be an adult. I feel like it limits what can be done with him and is the wrong decision for the overall Super-family future.
I hope you're right about DC not doing another hard reboot.

[Quinlan58]

I see Jon going the Dick Grayson route once (if?) Clark returns to being the only Superman: adopts a new identity and goes through what could be described as Superman-lite adventures with his biggest ongoing personal struggle being whether he really is his own man outside of his father's legacy (sorry Dick, you know it's true 80% of the time).

That's assuming we don't go the Spiderman route, though. Which DC seems to be finally trying with Flash after years of sacrificing Wally for Barry, so I'm not outright discarding that they may try with Jon and Clark.

[NaVi]

Jon as Superman annoys me, but I try to accept it, but it's impossible, every half sentence Clark says how incredible Jon is, that Jon is much better than him, first it was the Supergirl series, where Supergirl was much better, now also Jon, I guess the next thing is that Krypto is also a much better hero than Clark. really in DC there is no one who understands that Jon as a superman annoys many fans, and that insisting on how much better Jon is as a hero than Clark, the only thing they achieve is to annoy those fans even more.