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  1. #1801
    Astonishing Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Not going to rehash a lot of the points made about sales, but I think one that a lot of people are overlooking is that the actual monthly floppy sales probably don't matter as much as people think. There's not much meaningful difference between 35K sales and 60K sales to a company like WB's that's mainly interested in the IP use of these ideas outside of comics.

    And I think PKJ hit the nail on the head - to the point where I would not be surprised if he was just repeating a point made higher up the food chain than he is - that WB's has settled into a "evolution" of Superman's arc that they see as something that can seed all kinds of stories. You have the young startup (My Adventures with Superman), the established Superman & Lois, and passing of the torch setting (Action and Son of Kal El). That's an easy elevator pitch, self contained, set up for any stage of Superman. It's a versatile time line they can mine for tons of different setups as they're doing right now. It's not that different than what they have established with Batman either with like a Year One, Batfamily, and DKR's evolution that they can mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by garazza View Post
    So was PKJ when he said the entire Superman office loves Jon, even though they seem to be ignoring what made people fall in love with him in the first place.

    I'll wait for concrete, on-the-page depictions of what he claims.
    Aside from the kid Jon fanatics, the general consensus seems to be that PJK is writing a much better teen Jon and people are seeing the same things that they enjoyed about Jon before. Really, there's an extremely small vocal minority of fans that are hardcore kid Jon fans. I muted like 3 people on twitter who were getting obnoxious with the negative posts on anything PKJ or Taylor said about it and since that I've pretty much stopped seeing the complaints.
    Last edited by Yoda; 06-13-2021 at 06:49 AM.

  2. #1802
    Fantastic Member The Frog Bros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Watters has been doing some other stories here and there like the Infinite Frontier Secret Files series, Red & Blue, and I think some more stories elsewhere? I have hope he’ll be given more work because as you say, he did a really good job working within the limits he did. He and Thomas are who I would like to see get proper runs on Superman or do more work with the character elsewhere.
    The Watters story in Red & Blue is probably in my top 3 of all the R&B stories so far... would love to see more stuff from him.
    "There is nothing quite so perfect as the exact way in which comics combine the word and image." --Alan Moore
    "Before it was a Bomb, the Bomb was an Idea. Superman, however, was a Faster, Stronger, Better Idea." --Grant Morrison

  3. #1803
    Spectacular Member oneveryfineday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    Not going to rehash a lot of the points made about sales, but I think one that a lot of people are overlooking is that the actual monthly floppy sales probably don't matter as much as people think. There's not much meaningful difference between 35K sales and 60K sales to a company like WB's that's mainly interested in the IP use of these ideas outside of comics.

    And I think PKJ hit the nail on the head - to the point where I would not be surprised if he was just repeating a point made higher up the food chain than he is - that WB's has settled into a "evolution" of Superman's arc that they see as something that can seed all kinds of stories. You have the young startup (My Adventures with Superman), the established Superman & Lois, and passing of the torch setting (Action and Son of Kal El). That's an easy elevator pitch, self contained, set up for any stage of Superman. It's a versatile time line they can mine for tons of different setups as they're doing right now. It's not that different than what they have established with Batman either with like a Year One, Batfamily, and DKR's evolution that they can mine.
    Those are all really good points, and it’s interesting in the modern era the company has moved from sticking to one type of status quo to going with the idea of a lifetime arc. And while there’s been some hand-wringing over aging the characters, DC is showing you can still have young versions of the characters too. Gone is the time when DC was hastily trying to line up the Clois marriage in the comics with the TV show; audiences today are smart enough to accept Superman at any kind of stage across different media.

    I assume that Clark’s identity being revealed is part of the “evolution” as well since they keep outing him. Not much has been done with that yet, but I’m interested in what the idea behind it is.

  4. #1804
    Astonishing Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneveryfineday View Post
    Those are all really good points, and it’s interesting in the modern era the company has moved from sticking to one type of status quo to going with the idea of a lifetime arc. And while there’s been some hand-wringing over aging the characters, DC is showing you can still have young versions of the characters too. Gone is the time when DC was hastily trying to line up the Clois marriage in the comics with the TV show; audiences today are smart enough to accept Superman at any kind of stage across different media.
    Good point about there still being stories with kid Jon being published. I forgot to add that they actually are putting out kid Jon material - aimed at actual kids - despite what are most assuredly lackluster sales.

    I assume that Clark’s identity being revealed is part of the “evolution” as well since they keep outing him. Not much has been done with that yet, but I’m interested in what the idea behind it is.
    That is actually another point that PKJ mentioned when he talked about the evolution of the character. I do think it fits within that same evolution and works with the character's progression. I would not be surprised to see it become a plot point on Superman and Lois at some point in the future - like a Season 5 or 6 storyline.

  5. #1805
    Spectacular Member oneveryfineday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    Good point about there still being stories with kid Jon being published. I forgot to add that they actually are putting out kid Jon material - aimed at actual kids - despite what are most assuredly lackluster sales.
    Haha, I was actually talking about Clark and the idea that he shouldn’t get old and he has to always be in his prime in his 20s, but yeah I just realized the aging comment applies equally to Jon as well. The Super Sons floppies don’t really have an audience, but there are three volumes of the graphic novel now, so I assume those sell well to kids.

    That is actually another point that PKJ mentioned when he talked about the evolution of the character. I do think it fits within that same evolution and works with the character's progression. I would not be surprised to see it become a plot point on Superman and Lois at some point in the future - like a Season 5 or 6 storyline.
    Yeah, I can see that.

  6. #1806
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Yes, we are still getting stories about kid Jon. But you know what we will never get unless there is a retcon? Stories about Clark Lois and Jon when he enters highschool. We'll never get a story about Clark telling the kryptonian version of the birds and the bees. We'll never get a story about Jon having his first chest hair and not being able to shave it and Clark revealing the secret for how he shaves (while Lois tries to spy on them on the other side of the wall).

    If Bendis had sent Clark Lois and Jon to the future and they stayed there for 7 years I wouldn't actually be as bothered by this. Grant Morrison says Superman lives life just like us but on a bigger canvas right? Well they took that whole thing away from Clark and Jon by sending him away during his whole puberty. Is this what people wanted out of a Superman and son saga? An estranged son?

    At least freaking retcon it and pretend Jon was actually born earlier and live his whole life with his parents.
    Last edited by Alpha; 06-13-2021 at 08:54 AM.

  7. #1807
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    That is actually another point that PKJ mentioned when he talked about the evolution of the character. I do think it fits within that same evolution and works with the character's progression. I would not be surprised to see it become a plot point on Superman and Lois at some point in the future - like a Season 5 or 6 storyline.
    It could also be in service of Jon, a young Superman who's carrying on the legacy.

    It was something that was originally mandated for the young New 52 Superman during the Truth arc. Now it's something that was put into play for what would've been 5G. I figure in both cases it was to move away from the classic set up for a young Superman. This was regardless of what Jon did as a day job or where he goes to school he'll have to be Jon Kent The Superman. Feels like more is set to be done with it in Taylor's book than has ever been the case in either Clark book.

    As Taylor has said several times, his book is new reader friendly, and given the fact that DC via Lee has made it clear that the comics are an IP farm, it's adaptation friendly. So that's likely why issue #2 of Son of Kal-El has Jon somewhat having his identity exposed again. If this were a cartoon or movie this is likely when the identity would be exposed. Jon not sure trying to have a normal life even though he's been given this responsibility, and then that being made impossible, then going from there.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!"

    - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  8. #1808
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    I have to admit that I've kind of started to accept the idea of Clark revealing his identity at a certain point in his life and decides to turn Superman into the adopted son of Martha and Jonathan Kent.

    But I still want him to have "vacations" with Lois where they disguise themselves as normal blonde Jordan Elliot and wife. Oh and I want Clark to still write books as Clark Kent, even though everyone knows who he is.

  9. #1809
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    That is actually another point that PKJ mentioned when he talked about the evolution of the character. I do think it fits within that same evolution and works with the character's progression. I would not be surprised to see it become a plot point on Superman and Lois at some point in the future - like a Season 5 or 6 storyline.
    Which would be kind of a shame because I like how the show has been handling Clark Kent as an identity and doing a relatively solid job of featuring out-of-costume stuff.

  10. #1810
    Mighty Member Ra-El's Avatar
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    Superman: Son of Kal-El will probably sell better than Action Comics, not only because the Superman book usually sells better, but also because Taylor is the bigger name. But, since his Action actually started, 1030, PKJ is doing great work, it's the most excited I've been for a Superman comics in years, and Sampere is killing on the art.

    DC apparently will do the first Superman big event in years, they brough in Morrison to help start things. One of the best parts of Jon taking over the more traditional Superman role, is that it can free Clark to have some stories that Superman's usually setting (Metropolis/Earth/JL) wouldn't support, or at least editorial thought wouldn't. For some time now, my opinion is that Superman should get out of the League for a while, he usually isn't the best served character in that book, so if Jon taking his place means Clark will not be nerfed or jobbed every other month, I'm happy.

  11. #1811
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    If Bendis had sent Clark Lois and Jon to the future I wouldn't actually be as bothered by this. Grant Morrison says Superman lives life just like us but on a bigger canvas right? Well they took that whole thing away from Clark and Jon by sending him away during his whole puberty. Is this what people wanted out of a Superman and son saga? An estranged son?
    Not to be too blunt, but if you're under the impression that Morrison's words on Superman living his life on a bigger scale boils down the indestructible chest hair and Kryptonian birds and the bees, then I genuinely think you've missed their point.

    I'd suggestion reading their book Supergods or listening to them talk about 50s and 60s Superman because it's most certainly not that cut and dry. If you can't see how the concept of a parent having to "relearn" their child after puberty, and one day feeling like they were *just* a child the other day works comfortably within Morrison's idea, then I don't know what else to say. The actual strength of the writing aside. It's in the same way that a young Clark Kent getting so warped up in a fight with a time eating beast that he has the last few minutes that he could've spent with his dad taken from him. Or how getting trapped in the undervrese with a self reflecting version of yourself is an expression of the introspective and reflecting (they're literal copies) thoughts we have at our lowest.

    Walking the dog around Saturn and its equivalents (like your super chest hair) are the most surface level takes on what Morrison was actually getting at, and not at all the standard even within their own work.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!"

    - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  12. #1812
    Astonishing Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    Yes, we are still getting stories about kid Jon. But you know what we will never get unless there is a retcon? Stories about Clark Lois and Jon when he enters highschool. We'll never get a story about Clark telling the kryptonian version of the birds and the bees. We'll never get a story about Jon having his first chest hair and not being able to shave it and Clark revealing the secret for how he shaves (while Lois tries to spy on them on the other side of the wall).

    If Bendis had sent Clark Lois and Jon to the future and they stayed there for 7 years I wouldn't actually be as bothered by this. Grant Morrison says Superman lives life just like us but on a bigger canvas right? Well they took that whole thing away from Clark and Jon by sending him away during his whole puberty. Is this what people wanted out of a Superman and son saga? An estranged son?

    At least freaking retcon it and pretend Jon was actually born earlier and live his whole life with his parents.
    I mean, half or more of that type of stuff could still be done in the comics. We likely will see Jon navigating college with Lois and somewhat with Clark. I don't think Taylor will pass up the chance to work that stuff in. And some of that other stuff will likely will be done in other media feature Jon (or Jordan) with things like Superman and Lois. But on the whole, that's not really the type of stories that drive these things or are that large of trade offs. I think the PTB at DC probably see losing what amounts to one or two fill in issues or literally scenes - which as fun as they would be is exactly what that type of stuff is - as a big price to pay for being able to use Jon far more broadly. I mean, in the context of superheroes, Superman showing Jon how to handle himself as a hero which we are still seeing is that analogy to learning to shave. And we did see quite a bit of that stuff in the Rebirth series, with the "talks" they had. Superman leaving Earth for "Superman reasons" is basically a Superman take on Dad being busy with work. I think that is more in line with the allegorical stuff Morrison references than him literally doing mundane things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Which would be kind of a shame because I like how the show has been handling Clark Kent as an identity and doing a relatively solid job of featuring out-of-costume stuff.
    I don't think it'll be something that happens anytime soon, but I wouldn't take it off the table completely. These shows do tend to mix things up in later seasons.


    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    It could also be in service of Jon, a young Superman who's carrying on the legacy.

    It was something that was originally mandated for the young New 52 Superman during the Truth arc. Now it's something that was put into play for what would've been 5G. I figure in both cases it was to move away from the classic set up for a young Superman. This was regardless of what Jon did as a day job or where he goes to school he'll have to be Jon Kent The Superman. Feels like more is set to be done with it in Taylor's book than has ever been the case in either Clark book.

    As Taylor has said several times, his book is new reader friendly, and given the fact that DC via Lee has made it clear that the comics are an IP farm, it's adaptation friendly. So that's likely why issue #2 of Son of Kal-El has Jon somewhat having his identity exposed again. If this were a cartoon or movie this is likely when the identity would be exposed. Jon not sure trying to have a normal life even though he's been given this responsibility, and then that being made impossible, then going from there.
    If I'm recalling the podcast correctly, PKJ discussed it in the context of how he sees Clark and how he sees the constant lying about his identity in conflict with Superman being a character that is built on the pursuit of truth. I think it kind of works within that context separately from Jon's involvement. It's one milestone that they can use in the evolution, with the reveal to Lois being one step and the ultimate reveal to the world being the culmination of that arc and his trust and truth with the world.

    To the extent it also works in the context of Jon, I think that is likely something that I am sure factors into it but not driving it. I don't think it was mandated for Bendis to bring about in the service of 5G and the New 52 version of it was just a last gasp effort to court more controversy and drive sales as that line was burning to the ground. Bendis said he originally had planned to address the conflict with the secret identity differently - and I think it's also part of the reason Rucka bombed the back half of Lois' book - but the identity reveal came to him separately.

  13. #1813
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    TBH, disregarding Jon, I'm also just not a fan of this new direction for Superman as a whole. Like, DC is "evolving" Superman into something unrecognizable. Where they want to Superman to go is incongruous with where Superman is, and any and all attempts to move him in that directions feels forced and unnatural. There is way to "evolve" Superman, but for me it looks nothing like this (and I'm not saying I could come up with something better).

    Maybe if Jon was a kid, I might be on board, but for me this is too much, too fast, and none of it makes much sense. I can recognize when books just aren't for me anymore.

  14. #1814
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    If I'm recalling the podcast correctly, PKJ discussed it in the context of how he sees Clark and how he sees the constant lying about his identity in conflict with Superman being a character that is built on the pursuit of truth. I think it kind of works within that context separately from Jon's involvement. It's one milestone that they can use in the evolution, with the reveal to Lois being one step and the ultimate reveal to the world being the culmination of that arc and his trust and truth with the world.
    I'm aware, and I'm not discrediting that. I'm just saying that given the fact that PKJ will effectively not be dealing with it, and Bendis dealing with it read more like setting the stage, I think there's some validity here. But clearly Bendis wasn't *just* using it for the set up, since he did address it with Clark in the back half of his run. But I think the fact that one of the overall points he stressed was "everyone might as well have already known because not much will change" is telling as far as it went for Clark. But Jon in relation to this would've been (and still is) a question mark, and I think that's where the whole "Superman without a secret identity" really earns its keep conceptually.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!"

    - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  15. #1815
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    Keep telling yourself that. The LoSH didn't sell well enough because of poozers like you who never gave it a chance.

    And keep telling yourself that kid Jon was ever popular. He wasn't. Supersons sold because it aped Damian's popularity and it did so by ruining the Son of Batman to prop up kid Jon, because it was the only way this version of the character could ever sell even a little.

    Justice League with Jon as Superman will keep selling well enough.
    This is also untrue. A lot of people enjoy young Jon and the idea of a child World's Finest. I know I've lent out trades to people who don't normally read comics because they think it sounded fun based on "Superman and Batman's kids get into trouble going on adventures."

    Across every discussion of comics that I frequent (here, Reddit and others), child Jon was generally beloved unless people just didn't care for Superman having a child to begin with.

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