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  1. #946
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    This is where I'm in direct conflict with the current DC's approach. I don't see Superman as just a title for anyone who acts the part on any given Earth. It was for example the most lasting and awesome message of Reign of the Supermen so long ago. There can be those who are inspired by him and be great heroes in their own right but there is only one Superman. I am supremely disappointed to see that now after so long they're trying to turn the approach into that of Flash or Green Lantern.
    Superman is super.I have already said that.a man with certain instinct,morality and capacity/aptitude is called superman by the people.But,it isn't unattainable.It was never meant to be unattainable.I judge characters on the story.Reign was by design splitting attributes of superman,expecting these attributes to function as full.It won't.Nor does it mean,a man has to do what clark kent does to be superman.He's a superson.Jon can be his own superman.I judge people by their actions,not what they say. I judge characters based on the stories.Clark has failed in the department of super as well(getting audiences/readers to feel wow!this dude is super).By that logic,he shouldn't be superman either.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 01-20-2021 at 11:37 PM.
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  2. #947
    Extraordinary Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    This is where I'm in direct conflict with the current DC's approach. I don't see Superman as just a title for anyone who acts the part on any given Earth. It was for example the most lasting and awesome message of Reign of the Supermen so long ago. There can be those who are inspired by him and be great heroes in their own right but there is only one Superman. I am supremely disappointed to see that now after so long they're trying to turn the approach into that of Flash or Green Lantern.
    I wouldn’t say that’s something that the actual comics have gone with:



    And Jurgens himself in the 90s had created a successor Superman in that Dominus story which followed different incarnations of Superman throughout continuity, so it’s been a part of both Pre and Post Crisis that someday Clark might have a son or a successor to take over for him.

  3. #948
    Extraordinary Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Also damn is PKJ going to use that Superman Squad concept that showed up in Grounded in House of El?


    Some of the people on the cover and in the art we’ve seen look familiar. Man I would love to see the Fortress of Solidarity again. Such a cool concept that got wasted on a crap story right before the reboot.

  4. #949
    Incredible Member SuperX's Avatar
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    This isn't the same thing though, 1 is being published now, and ongoing, and all these nice examples you gave are from alternate universes or futures thst are not published ongoing. We are ALL OK with cool alternate or future takes on superman, we do have a problem with how Clark Kent is being treated
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  5. #950
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Should have clarified that I'm speaking strictly in terms of a present ongoing continuity. Obviously when playing with far potential future stuff, they've utilized a bloodline and successors a lot. And when I mentioned any given Earth, I meant to allow for the multiversal stuff as well as that's always been a thing too. With these specific tropes, I've always appreciated and had fun with going nuts like this.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 01-19-2021 at 09:48 AM.
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  6. #951
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperX View Post
    This isn't the same thing though, 1 is being published now, and ongoing, and all these nice examples you gave are from alternate universes or futures thst are not published ongoing. We are ALL OK with cool alternate or future takes on superman, we do have a problem with how Clark Kent is being treated
    I agree with your comments.

  7. #952
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    I have zero issues with characters other than Clark being Superman.

    The idea that only Clark can ever be Superman is toxic.

  8. #953
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I believe a potential trend of trying to interchange Clark out is what's toxic.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 01-20-2021 at 12:58 AM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

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  9. #954
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Can't possibly imagine how wanting the character to be the character he was designed as is at all toxic.
    Well for one thing, Superman hasn't been anything resembling the character he was designed to be since Grant Morrison finished his run on Action Comics. Having the name Clark Kent doesn't automatically make him closer to Superman's original design.

    More importantly, Growth and Change is a vital part of keeping character's interesting.

  10. #955
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I'm talking about the most basic tenant of who he is; "And who, disguised as Clark Kent". What you're talking about is simply the evolving of a character. In that regard no he's not 100% the same but that's not what I meant. And speaking of evolution, yes, growth is, in general terms, good. So you grow Kal-El/Clark Kent, like multiple generations already have managed to do in some form or another. Its worked for over 80 years despite DC's share of foul-ups and he remains one of the most recognizable fictional entities in the entire world. Probably the second, right behind the Mouse. That strikes me as the furthest thing from toxicity.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 01-20-2021 at 01:12 AM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

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  11. #956
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jcogginsa View Post
    I have zero issues with characters other than Clark being Superman.

    The idea that only Clark can ever be Superman is toxic.
    Nah, the point is that there isn't any reason for Superman to retire until long in the future, certainly not before Lois Lane dies of old age. Because regardless of how long you think Superman should live, even when he is old he could still defeat 70% of villains. And I think the idea of Clark traversing various generations of heroes and being the column that supports them through all the crisis over the decades. And I don't like the idea of Clark leaving earth for more than a year.

  12. #957
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    I'd say that plenty of characters old and new can be Superman (there's several from various sci-fi scenarios, alt-earths, and what-have-you that have premises strong enough that I consistently enjoy when they show up) but only Clark Kent can be Clark Kent.

    I picked up Superman: Worlds of War. The initial week of Future State ostensibly confirmed to me that it was going to be exactly what I expected and that while quality of any given story can't be presumed and I'll eagerly check out anything people rave about, "The Quality of the Micro-Event" itself, the greater quality of a line-wide stop-gap time-buying run ... you can predict pretty easily, and I've only been following monthlies for about a decade but I've lived through what feels like ... ten of these things.

    But returning to the point, I picked up S:WOW because I like Superman, I like Mikel Janin drawing Superman, the cover draws you in, and I wanted to get to know the upcoming writer. And I thought, wow this was a nice Superman story. It felt Tom Kingy in its splashy page-by-page move along here's the next idea that only gets one panel to live in way and the celebratory manner and the outsider kind of point of view thing. It did not feel Tom Kingy in that it was simple, to the point, and there was no huge glaring plot points magic wand wave ignored. It's simple enough we don't need to understand how Superman got where he got. There's no mystery. It's Superman, this stuff happens every other day (which is even brought up diagetically). It plays as In Media Res, not "Things Happen Just So They Can Happen". But nevermind all that, it's just the content of the issue. An interesting riff on Superman Messiah Worship in a Modern Day, or Near Future setting. Interesting POVs about Superman that reflect in-universe reasons people appreciate him, meta reasons people appreciate him, and probably the Author's Statement reason on why you should appreciate him. Then in only two panels of a stoic but not cold or cruel Clark defending somebody on an alien field, a SHOW after all that TELLING.

    Nice, efficient, clean storytelling. Without even a supporting cast to pad out the run-time, or a heroic but cliched inner monologue.

    I even liked the back-ups.
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  13. #958
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Let Jon choose a distinct identity for himself. Making him Superman is the most constraining choice you could make

  14. #959
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Yeah... rather than read about how he isn't Clark, I'd rather read about Clark. Or at least who Jon is since he isn't Clark.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    And Jurgens himself in the 90s had created a successor Superman in that Dominus story which followed different incarnations of Superman throughout continuity, so it’s been a part of both Pre and Post Crisis that someday Clark might have a son or a successor to take over for him.
    Jurgens brought back the imaginary story of the silver age as another reality if that's what you mean. But then there were comics like Action One Million so yeah.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jcogginsa View Post
    I have zero issues with characters other than Clark being Superman.

    The idea that only Clark can ever be Superman is toxic.
    I don't really use toxic in this sort of context one way or the other, I just think the point Sacred makes (and I agree with) is easy to get. Comics have this undying trend of replacing titular characters, and because we virtually always see it as a seasonal gimmick, it just isn't compelling or successful beyond prediction. If I watch a Bugs Bunny cartoon, maybe he's a little different in character and maybe his voice is different, but it's still a variation on the qualities that embody the character. To call it Bugs when it's Lola means it's not Bugs, you know?
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  15. #960
    Incredible Member SuperX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jcogginsa View Post
    I have zero issues with characters other than Clark being Superman.

    The idea that only Clark can ever be Superman is toxic.

    Calling things "toxic" IS toxic Imo.

    Clark Kent has been superman long before you were a thought, and will be after we are all gone.

    I read comics to follow characters, char cter I have grown to care about, and want to keep following. I'm not here just for the next "cool" story (even though I do want my characters having cool stories of course).
    Where is my damn Tactile Telekinesis?
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