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  1. #961

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    Let Jon choose a distinct identity for himself. Making him Superman is the most constraining choice you could make
    I agree. I'm cool with him getting a solo but him being Superman II isn't appealing to me.
    Last edited by the illustrious mr. kenway; 01-20-2021 at 09:52 AM.

  2. #962
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    I agree that Jon needs his own identity.

    Will it ever be established who Superman Secundus was/is? Can/should he revealed as Jon?

  3. #963
    Extraordinary Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpmaluki View Post
    I agree that Jon needs his own identity.

    Will it ever be established who Superman Secundus was/is? Can/should he revealed as Jon?
    Jon. The costume for Secundus in All-Star Superman was the basis of Jon’s Future State outfit.

  4. #964
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    Well, if PKJ's mission statement for Superman is "exploring his position as a god in the DC Universe", then Worlds of War is a pretty good first step for that. Loved the different "mythical" fates for him building up from "he is sun-powered", "he is an alien", "he is a farmer".

  5. #965
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jcogginsa View Post
    I have zero issues with characters other than Clark being Superman.

    The idea that only Clark can ever be Superman is toxic.
    It less "toxic" and more "common sense."

    Quote Originally Posted by Jcogginsa View Post
    More importantly, Growth and Change is a vital part of keeping character's interesting.
    How is it a change for Clark that will make him more interesting? If Jon is Superman, Clark isn't. What the hell else is he going to do when Superman is what he was created to be besides maybe being killed off? In which case, that's more about Jon than Clark.

    And it's not as if passing a mantle to someone else is this new innovative thing. We've seen it dozens of times before, and results in more tedious fandom infighting because there is no creativity in this industry anymore to come up with new names and costumes. And worse, resistance from fans to try it out. We've been down this road with the Green Lanterns, the Flashes, the Robins, the Batgirls. Things get ugly and annoying pretty quick

  6. #966
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    We've been down this road with the Green Lanterns, the Flashes, the Robins, the Batgirls. Things get ugly and annoying pretty quick
    gee, let's look at those franchises

    Green Lanterns: The majority of Lanterns newer than Hal are just as popular than Hal.
    The Flash: Consensus is that the best Flash is the third one. The one who emphasizes the Legacy aspect the most.
    The Robins: No consensus on the best of them, but general Agreement that the original should never get the title back
    Batgirls: Widely agreed that the original should have never gotten the mantle back. Both of her successors are preferred as Batgirl

    All of the examples you gave are examples of Legacy characters working, and improving a great deal over their predecessors.

  7. #967
    Mighty Member Ra-El's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jcogginsa View Post
    gee, let's look at those franchises

    Green Lanterns: The majority of Lanterns newer than Hal are just as popular than Hal.
    The Flash: Consensus is that the best Flash is the third one. The one who emphasizes the Legacy aspect the most.
    The Robins: No consensus on the best of them, but general Agreement that the original should never get the title back
    Batgirls: Widely agreed that the original should have never gotten the mantle back. Both of her successors are preferred as Batgirl

    All of the examples you gave are examples of Legacy characters working, and improving a great deal over their predecessors.
    Superman is Superman. All of those examples happened because the original wasn't working or had already move on for different roles. And all of them needed years, if not decades of being the sole user of the mantle to achieve the popularity they have. And for last, it's all a matter of opinion.

    Consensus about who is the best Flash? That's funny, since I became aware that existed more than one Flash I've never encountered anything close to a consensus about who is the best. It should also be noted that while for over 20 years Wally was the Flash a lot of people got to know, Barry have been back for a decade now and is the star of a very popular tv show and also have a movie on the works.
    Pretty much the same thing with the Batgirls, I see more people upset about Oracle not existing anymore than about Stephanie or Cassandra. People agree that Dick should not be Robin again not because they prefer someone else to have the mantle, but because the character outgrew the role, he is Nightwing, he was promoted.

    For last, if they go with Jon as Superman for a while, at some point Clark will be Superman again, and the same fight that plagues the Green Lantern, Flash, Robin (this one relegate to just Tim and Damian) and Batgirl fandom would also plague the Superman's. Several thread where fans of Jon will acuse the DC editorial of nostalgia because they brought Clark back, and other threads where Clark fans will say that Jon should not even exist in the first place.

  8. #968
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    It less "toxic" and more "common sense."

    How is it a change for Clark that will make him more interesting?
    I don't see any common sense in that.You might want clark to be the story. But,that's a different deal.

    If played right. Clark will be away from the shitty job of being an example to people. That would mean he would be able to be superman,even if he doesn't have the title. Clark would be away from the portrayal where he is always the middle man trying to please humanity and it's gods(literal and figurative) or whatever and needing their acceptance . (Go out there kickass, free some slaves, throw some wife beaters into walls, run from the good authorities, punch bad ones... Etc) . That's far more interesting.Rather than having the title and being boring.Clark could finally be a man of action again.

    Heck! The Title itself can be rid of it. Since, jon is "half imperfect". Whatever that means. Jon could do the right thing . And people won't be "that ain't superman" Or whatever. as if byrne superman didn't do stuff like that
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 01-20-2021 at 11:31 PM.
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  9. #969
    Extraordinary Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jcogginsa View Post
    gee, let's look at those franchises

    Green Lanterns: The majority of Lanterns newer than Hal are just as popular than Hal.
    Not true. It goes Hal & John > Jess > the rest, and I say that as someone who likes Simon and Guy. Hopefully the HBO Max show will give the others a boost, but Simon flat out disappeared for over a year and is only now just coming back. Kyle hasn’t fared much better. Only John and Jess come close to being Hal’s equals popularity wise.
    The Flash: Consensus is that the best Flash is the third one. The one who emphasizes the Legacy aspect the most.
    On this forum sure. Hell I like Wally over Barry myself. But your average zoomer sees Barry as the best Flash, especially with Flashpoint being the only Flash plot most casuals know. The Flash TV show has cemented Barry as the Flash for a generation. Wally is nowhere near as popular as he once was.
    The Robins: No consensus on the best of them, but general Agreement that the original should never get the title back
    I can agree with this, but I’d also point out that ever since Damian replaced Tim, Drake has really struggled to stay relevant.
    Batgirls: Widely agreed that the original should have never gotten the mantle back. Both of her successors are preferred as Batgirl
    Like Flash I agree but I don’t know if the general audience has the same opinion. Neither Steph nor Cass has been Batgirl in an outside media project yet, most people still probably prefer Babs outside the hardcore.
    All of the examples you gave are examples of Legacy characters working, and improving a great deal over their predecessors.
    That’s subjective. Some people don’t like Wally more than Barry, or don’t think John is better than Hal. People hated Jason as Robin and only like him as Red Hood.
    Last edited by Vordan; 01-21-2021 at 10:19 AM.

  10. #970
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Not to mention franchises with the highest success rate of legacy are ones that never were or are as popular as Superman. In fact its in franchises that were failing at one or more points in their history in a way Superman's never come close to. Superman as a franchise today needs work, this can't be denied. But there's nothing broken about Kal-El/Clark Kent. That there's nothing broken about him is proven in the fact that he remains as marketable as he is in spite of the screw ups from his handlers. He is not nor ever has been damaged to the point of needing to be replaced. He never has been where Barry Allen was in the Bronze Age that would culminate in needing to replace him with Wally in the first place come COIE (Barry having since bounced back in a major way over two decades later). The post-WWII superhero decline didn't affect him as largely as it did others, like GL that also had to be completely revamped with a new character and lore. As I touched on before, prior failure often has deep roots in legacy taking hold. Superman has never fallen that far. Thinking that might be the answer anyway? That's a bigger threat to the Superman brand right now, in my eyes.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 01-21-2021 at 12:54 AM.
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  11. #971
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Ok.how are they gonna have changes to the character when they can't even do a simple change as costume?Moreover,would any change be superficial if they decide to go for same clark being the savior father figure as the core (like new52 where clark goes back to doing the same flying paragon shtick)?Also,that is priecsly the problem.Superman's success as a father figure savior with things like allstar superman and donner superman.People want it(i am not blaming that.Those were cool).They are unable to make that concept work without people getting pissed at slightest bit or having the story being totally safe thereby boring.And that doesn't translate to larger audiences.I mean after donner left,that franchise didn't hit jackpot.superman return fell short.snyder decided to do what he does with the concept with big imagery and lack of human character moments.I feel that the company thinks the concept has hit a dead end,Narratively speaking.They don't know what to do.They can't change anything without it causing backlash.but there is still a market.But,they can't produce something of quality with concept.All they can do is repeat the same falling helicopters/planes and damsels(every origin since donner had this moment).So,they decided to have jon be superman.That gives them leeway.Have clark be the same symbol and father figure,maybe even change with this new role. So that audience,don't feel it being sudden.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 01-21-2021 at 04:01 AM.
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  12. #972
    Astonishing Member HsssH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jcogginsa View Post
    gee, let's look at those franchises

    Green Lanterns: The majority of Lanterns newer than Hal are just as popular than Hal.
    The Flash: Consensus is that the best Flash is the third one. The one who emphasizes the Legacy aspect the most.
    The Robins: No consensus on the best of them, but general Agreement that the original should never get the title back
    Batgirls: Widely agreed that the original should have never gotten the mantle back. Both of her successors are preferred as Batgirl

    All of the examples you gave are examples of Legacy characters working, and improving a great deal over their predecessors.
    You must be living in alternate universe.

  13. #973
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jcogginsa View Post
    gee, let's look at those franchises

    Green Lanterns: The majority of Lanterns newer than Hal are just as popular than Hal.
    The Flash: Consensus is that the best Flash is the third one. The one who emphasizes the Legacy aspect the most.
    The Robins: No consensus on the best of them, but general Agreement that the original should never get the title back
    Batgirls: Widely agreed that the original should have never gotten the mantle back. Both of her successors are preferred as Batgirl

    All of the examples you gave are examples of Legacy characters working, and improving a great deal over their predecessors.
    Gee, all these franchises were never as big as Superman, and GL and Flash had definitely fallen further and necessitated the change. Even Robin and Batgirl are part of the larger Batman IP, and Batman despite having others wear his costume is never going to be anyone but Bruce Wayne permanently. Characters do not go from the 1930s to now without changes if they are in dire need of replacements.

    All the legacies have popularity to varying degrees and success, but there is no consensus among the fanbase. Or else there would no constant in fighting like there is. Also, where is the consensus that Wally is the best when Barry is the one with the successful TV show? Also, John, Jess and maybe Kyle rival Hal in popularity but I wouldn't say Simon or Guy do, and it's way too early to tell with Jo. Alan definitely doesn't despite being respected as the original Golden Age one.

  14. #974
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    Nah, the point is that there isn't any reason for Superman to retire until long in the future, certainly not before Lois Lane dies of old age. Because regardless of how long you think Superman should live, even when he is old he could still defeat 70% of villains. And I think the idea of Clark traversing various generations of heroes and being the column that supports them through all the crisis over the decades. And I don't like the idea of Clark leaving earth for more than a year.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    Let Jon choose a distinct identity for himself. Making him Superman is the most constraining choice you could make
    I reiterate everything I said here. Even Bruce could be replaced thematically, but not Clark. I disagree with him aging at a normal rate because he is so indestructible that it would be really weird for him to sur down. I understand the idea of him at some point in the future getting the All Star Superman tyoe disease, except maybe he doesn't just go into the sun and become immortal, he trully becomes just energy and dissipates.

  15. #975
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Agreed with all this. Why I eyeroll at definitively identifying Jon as Superman Secundus as well. Secundus doesn't take up the cape until most of Superman's peers are gone, outside the ones who are also metahumans, aliens, or otherwise long-lived. That's a good 40-50 years from a current continuity's present day. That's always a pretty solid time for Clark to decide to do some travelling or whatnot to rediscover himself and his place in a budding new age and then have someone look over the Earth. The timeline here just doesn't work at all, hence why we're about to get hamfisted stuff like power depletion to justify a second Superman. Its disappointing in the possibility of it also screwing up the One Million story too.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 01-21-2021 at 02:34 PM.
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