PKJ Action Comics Discussion and Spoilers

[Robotman]

That's as old as Starlin turning him into a berserker bigot in cosmic odyssey. Waid and Morrison followed it in JLA and that's become his default persona. Kirby's Orion wasn't a berserker wolverine wannabe, he was a noble warrior with a simmering rage but who learned to control it because of his actual father Izaya. He's not son of Darkseid, he's the son of Highfather.

Orion’s true personality has always been a rage filled berserker. His true face is “ugly” and Mother Box was the only thing holding it back. But just barely.



Starlin didn’t turn Orion into a bigot. He and the New Gods always looked down on Forager and the bugs. There’s a scene in Kirby’s run where Orion is disgusted that a lowly bug would address him by name. Kirby showed the darker side of these characters who saw themselves as perfect gods.

[The Frog Bros]

When was the last time we even saw Zod? Last *I* saw him was the Super-Bat arc with Ra's, where Zod takes half of Kandor back to New Krypton. I dropped Legion pretty quickly but I wanna say New Krypton was still around and part of the United Planets in the future right? But I don't recall any specifics.

And I agree that Zod works really well as a political frenemy of Clark's. It's a perfect role for Zod, and is a fitting evolution for the character that overlaps nicely with Clark's changes and evolution. Zod involved in United Planets politics is a great place for him to be, and I don't think this has dulled his edge at all. No, if anything, he's more dangerous now. He's still a cold blooded killer, still willing to justify anything if it gets him closer to his goals, but now he's got political clout to back him up; he's not a rogue factor anymore, he has a seat at the UP table, and can convince/intimidate other UP members into doing what he wants, which might not be good news for Clark.

Zod has become for the cosmic side of the Super-verse what President Lex was for the earth side of the Super-verse. And if someone doesn't think that's scary as hell then they need to pay more attention to real world politicians.

I do hope to see House Zod show up under PKJ. The Phaelosians seem like the perfect group for Zod to try and bring back to New Krypton; they've lost their own culture (so Zod can introduce his own brand of Kryptonian culture to them easily) but are ethnically Kryptonian, life on the Warworld has prepared them to embrace Zod's brand of rule, and compared to Mongul, Zod will seem like a worthy, caring leader. Zod could very easily and very quickly end up with an entire population of zealot warriors, tempered in the fires of Warworld and possessing full Kryptonian powers.

As an aside, I've been thinking lately about Kara. I don't think she belongs on earth. Her most interesting stories tend to have her in space or in the future IMO. And I wonder, would it really be so bad if she did leave earth for New Krypton? She could be a mitigating voice there, trying to ensure the entire population doesn't just accept Zod's particular ethos and philosophies. It'd give her a status quo and a mission that defines her, separate from Clark and his world. And I can't imagine why Kara would want to stay on earth when she has a chance to rebuild her people. Sure, Houses El and Zod ended up at odds towards the end of Krypton, but they were allies for many, many years before that.

I'd get on board with that. To that end, I thought her Future State story was quite enjoyable, in addition to WoT.

On another note, finally got around to reading the recent issue of AC.

Love Federici on the classic Supes costume, really dig how he draws the logo. His art is always incredible and never ceases to amaze, but the greatness of it still manages to surpass expectations. That’s how good it is.

The Metallo bit at the start was tragic indeed. Pretty harrowing opening sequence with his sister.

Of course Lex knew what was going on throughout the whole previous arc. That’s what he does and how he rolls, lol.

Pretty cool narrative perspective in the backup story. The art didn't really jibe with me, plus its a tough pull to follow Federici, shooting from behind the 8 ball so to speak.

[Vordan]

When was the last time we even saw Zod? Last *I* saw him was the Super-Bat arc with Ra's, where Zod takes half of Kandor back to New Krypton. I dropped Legion pretty quickly but I wanna say New Krypton was still around and part of the United Planets in the future right? But I don't recall any specifics.

And I agree that Zod works really well as a political frenemy of Clark's. It's a perfect role for Zod, and is a fitting evolution for the character that overlaps nicely with Clark's changes and evolution. Zod involved in United Planets politics is a great place for him to be, and I don't think this has dulled his edge at all. No, if anything, he's more dangerous now. He's still a cold blooded killer, still willing to justify anything if it gets him closer to his goals, but now he's got political clout to back him up; he's not a rogue factor anymore, he has a seat at the UP table, and can convince/intimidate other UP members into doing what he wants, which might not be good news for Clark.

Zod has become for the cosmic side of the Super-verse what President Lex was for the earth side of the Super-verse. And if someone doesn't think that's scary as hell then they need to pay more attention to real world politicians.

I do hope to see House Zod show up under PKJ. The Phaelosians seem like the perfect group for Zod to try and bring back to New Krypton; they've lost their own culture (so Zod can introduce his own brand of Kryptonian culture to them easily) but are ethnically Kryptonian, life on the Warworld has prepared them to embrace Zod's brand of rule, and compared to Mongul, Zod will seem like a worthy, caring leader. Zod could very easily and very quickly end up with an entire population of zealot warriors, tempered in the fires of Warworld and possessing full Kryptonian powers.

As an aside, I've been thinking lately about Kara. I don't think she belongs on earth. Her most interesting stories tend to have her in space or in the future IMO. And I wonder, would it really be so bad if she did leave earth for New Krypton? She could be a mitigating voice there, trying to ensure the entire population doesn't just accept Zod's particular ethos and philosophies. It'd give her a status quo and a mission that defines her, separate from Clark and his world. And I can't imagine why Kara would want to stay on earth when she has a chance to rebuild her people. Sure, Houses El and Zod ended up at odds towards the end of Krypton, but they were allies for many, many years before that.

You and I think alike. Kara is the one I want on New Krypton, she is the El I was thinking of. There’s even a way I can get everything I want with Kara that still allows her to be involved on Earth stuff. I want her in space and I want her as a politician, but others want her to be involved with the Superfamily. The solution is pretty simple: Zod makes Kara the New Krypton ambassador to Earth/United Planets. That justifies her showing up on Earth despite having a new home in space, she gets to be involved in interstellar politics, and she has a job none of the other Supers do that challenges her.

[Venomized-spider-man]

When was the last time we even saw Zod? Last *I* saw him was the Super-Bat arc with Ra's, where Zod takes half of Kandor back to New Krypton. I dropped Legion pretty quickly but I wanna say New Krypton was still around and part of the United Planets in the future right? But I don't recall any specifics.

And I agree that Zod works really well as a political frenemy of Clark's. It's a perfect role for Zod, and is a fitting evolution for the character that overlaps nicely with Clark's changes and evolution. Zod involved in United Planets politics is a great place for him to be, and I don't think this has dulled his edge at all. No, if anything, he's more dangerous now. He's still a cold blooded killer, still willing to justify anything if it gets him closer to his goals, but now he's got political clout to back him up; he's not a rogue factor anymore, he has a seat at the UP table, and can convince/intimidate other UP members into doing what he wants, which might not be good news for Clark.

The last time Zod appear was in Green Lantern where he set up his own New Krypton in a primitive world named Jekuul with Lor & Ursa as his queen and prince. He helps out the Green lantern deal with the Darkstars just to punch Tomar-Tu who was a Darkstar (the son of Tomar-re the green lantern of the krypton sector)

Lor was last seen helping Rick flag the suicide Squad dealing with his usurpation of Amanda Waller where mid-way through the arc got sucked into the phantom zone with Cheetah & Clayface

[Vordan]

The last time Zod appear was in Green Lantern where he set up his own New Krypton in a primitive world named Jekuul with Lor & Ursa as his queen and prince. He helps out the Green lantern deal with the Darkstars just to punch Tomar-Tu who was a Darkstar (the son of Tomar-re the green lantern of the krypton sector)

Lor was last seen helping Rick flag the suicide Squad dealing with his usurpation of Amanda Waller where mid-way through the arc got sucked into the phantom zone with Cheetah & Clayface

Williamson’s Batman/Superman arc is the last we’ve seen of Zod aside from Bendis, what you’re thinking of happened prior to Bendis taking over. Lor however did recently show up in that Suicide Squad series and is the one who had the latest appearance (amuses me that they aged him up alongside Jon).

[Vordan]

Cool of DC to turn Federeci’s Metallo concept art into variant covers

[guanlishabi]

Williamson’s Batman/Superman arc is the last we’ve seen of Zod aside from Bendis, what you’re thinking of happened prior to Bendis taking over. Lor however did recently show up in that Suicide Squad series and is the one who had the latest appearance (amuses me that they aged him up alongside Jon).

I think the aged up Lor Zod was never explained,
could be the original plan in 5G or something that the editorial forgot to change.
And speaking of which, the original Lor-Zod, Chris Kent was also aged up due to Phantom Zone or something during the original New Krypton era.
Which isn't much, but it's weird that it's happened twice.

[Quinlan58]

Post-Rebirth Lor-Zod is only relevant as Jon's "dark counterpart". I don't think they consider it important how he went from a kid to an adult, so long as he looks like Jon's counterpart... despite the two not having met since current Lor-Zod's debut, lol.

What a waste of a character.

[Ascended]

You and I think alike. Kara is the one I want on New Krypton, she is the El I was thinking of. There’s even a way I can get everything I want with Kara that still allows her to be involved on Earth stuff. I want her in space and I want her as a politician, but others want her to be involved with the Superfamily. The solution is pretty simple: Zod makes Kara the New Krypton ambassador to Earth/United Planets. That justifies her showing up on Earth despite having a new home in space, she gets to be involved in interstellar politics, and she has a job none of the other Supers do that challenges her.

That's what I'm thinking. Kara as the New Krypton ambassador to the United Planets allows her to easily intersect with Clark's work, it allows her to visit earth whenever she wants, and it opens up a mountain of potential as she helps a former (still kinda) enemy rebuild their lost people. And what would we lose? A solo series set on earth that seems to be in a constant cycle of cancellation and relaunches? I know plenty of Kara fans don't want her pulled out of her familiar position within the mythos but, seriously, would we actually lose anything worth keeping? Seems to me a lot of her best stories are set off world. Why not keep her there?

And if it doesn't work, just send her back to earth and call it a noble experiment that failed.

[Stanlos]

Orion’s true personality has always been a rage filled berserker. His true face is “ugly” and Mother Box was the only thing holding it back. But just barely.



Starlin didn’t turn Orion into a bigot. He and the New Gods always looked down on Forager and the bugs. There’s a scene in Kirby’s run where Orion is disgusted that a lowly bug would address him by name. Kirby showed the darker side of these characters who saw themselves as perfect gods.

(Apologies to mods if this is the wrong place for this post!)

Having read every scrap of JK4W fair and seeing some of his early designs, I think sticking them in the DCU has kind of muddied the waters on what they actually are. They appear more as advanced aliens than actual Gods. I was initially thinking that was all clunky DC handling that made it so but in the original fare we see that was more often how they were handled than not. I am curious as to how the Superman fans view them. Are they best as members of DCs cosmic landscape a la Thanagar, the Citizenry, the Khund, Almarac, the Technokine, the Sangtee, the Lantern Corp and its many Spectrums, Darkstars, and other such alien races? Or do you prefer them as actual divinities on the order of the various pantheons of the DCU?

[Robotman]

(Apologies to mods if this is the wrong place for this post!)

Having read every scrap of JK4W fair and seeing some of his early designs, I think sticking them in the DCU has kind of muddied the waters on what they actually are. They appear more as advanced aliens than actual Gods. I was initially thinking that was all clunky DC handling that made it so but in the original fare we see that was more often how they were handled than not. I am curious as to how the Superman fans view them. Are they best as members of DCs cosmic landscape a la Thanagar, the Citizenry, the Khund, Almarac, the Technokine, the Sangtee, the Lantern Corp and its many Spectrums, Darkstars, and other such alien races? Or do you prefer them as actual divinities on the order of the various pantheons of the DCU?

I definitely prefer them as gods, but gods made flesh. Kirby intended them to first appear after a Ragnarok story in Thor. So they’re gods in the same sense the Marvel Asgardians are.

I hate when New Genesis and Apokolips are just planets that any character can reach. Boom Tubes should be the only way anyone can reach that realm.

Cool of DC to turn Federeci’s Metallo concept art into variant covers

Damn, his art looks even more amazing in black and white.

I hope Metallo retains some of this creepy design even when he’s fully functional.

So interested to see PKJ’s revamp of the character. He’s going to have a new powers source (thank gawd), and I’m sure the finished product will look a lot different.

[Ascended]

I am curious as to how the Superman fans view them. Are they best as members of DCs cosmic landscape a la Thanagar --- ? Or do you prefer them as actual divinities on the order of the various pantheons of the DCU?

I prefer them as divine beings from a higher dimensional plane. Same as Zeus, Ra, Odin, the christian God, or any other being from a real-world faith.

My favorite take on how they fit into DC's cosmology comes from Morrison; like everything that exists/originates in the Gods Sphere of the multiverse map, the New Gods operate in the physical universes by manifesting avatars. They're beyond the constraints of a single universe, you don't "kill" a New God, you just kill the avatar they're currently using in that particular universe.

And I don't consider the New Gods to be part of the Super franchise. More like cousins; happy to visit one another, but ultimately distinct and separate entities.

[Vordan]

That's what I'm thinking. Kara as the New Krypton ambassador to the United Planets allows her to easily intersect with Clark's work, it allows her to visit earth whenever she wants, and it opens up a mountain of potential as she helps a former (still kinda) enemy rebuild their lost people. And what would we lose? A solo series set on earth that seems to be in a constant cycle of cancellation and relaunches? I know plenty of Kara fans don't want her pulled out of her familiar position within the mythos but, seriously, would we actually lose anything worth keeping? Seems to me a lot of her best stories are set off world. Why not keep her there?

And if it doesn't work, just send her back to earth and call it a noble experiment that failed.

Agreed. Her “normal” status quo is just Clark Lite so I’m not at all bothered by the idea of jettisoning it. Kara being the ambassador from New Krypton is a way more exciting prospect to me.

(Apologies to mods if this is the wrong place for this post!)

Having read every scrap of JK4W fair and seeing some of his early designs, I think sticking them in the DCU has kind of muddied the waters on what they actually are. They appear more as advanced aliens than actual Gods. I was initially thinking that was all clunky DC handling that made it so but in the original fare we see that was more often how they were handled than not. I am curious as to how the Superman fans view them. Are they best as members of DCs cosmic landscape a la Thanagar, the Citizenry, the Khund, Almarac, the Technokine, the Sangtee, the Lantern Corp and its many Spectrums, Darkstars, and other such alien races? Or do you prefer them as actual divinities on the order of the various pantheons of the DCU?

I prefer them as actual deities, they should be on a different scale from the rest of the DC Cosmic scene. Kirby was big into ancient astronaut theories so his gods being aliens is not surprising, but I think they work best when they are of a divine nature.

[Stanlos]

I definitely prefer them as gods, but gods made flesh. Kirby intended them to first appear after a Ragnarok story in Thor. So they’re gods in the same sense the Marvel Asgardians are.

I hate when New Genesis and Apokolips are just planets that any character can reach. Boom Tubes should be the only way anyone can reach that realm.



Damn, his art looks even more amazing in black and white.

I hope Metallo retains some of this creepy design even when he’s fully functional.

So interested to see PKJ’s revamp of the character. He’s going to have a new powers source (thank gawd), and I’m sure the finished product will look a lot different.

See that's the beginning of the inconsistencies there. The Marvel approach was that they aren't really gods so much as technically advanced beings. I think the divergence between the Marvel approach versus the DC approach is sadly where everything went awry. And after Flashpoint DC seemed to wholeheartedly go full Marvel in its approach which is sad.

[Stanlos]

From the responses thus far we all prefer them as divinities. But the bulk of the works even Kirby's own places them as aliens. This extends across all known media though I am unsure about the scuttled Ava DuVernay project. The comics unfortunately mostly puts them as cosmics.

I thought Wolfman and company as later reinforced by Perez and Berger did a great job of incorporating them allowingvthe duality inherent in the original Kirby work to stand. Even though they aren't Gods in the way the Presence, Olympians, Orishas, etc are, they were connected to and ultimately born of the divine. They escape many of the rules governing Divinities but their connection is immutable as Simonson harped on with the return of the Shattered God.

So I wonder what the new status quo will be now that yet another hand holding little worlds has popped out of a swirly thing in Dark Crisis. Will we get another take on aliens moving across the verse conquering as they go and warring with other empires? Actual Divinities? A combination of the two? Or will there be a new take?

I have been looking at my old notebooks from senior year and was surprised to see that note about the duality being present in the original works for New Gods, and the start of the Amazons being non top tier physically (my note says it started with Kannigher who retold the origin and made Diana unique among the Amazons).

I also listed a ton of questions about Superman most of which I posed to the board. These dealt with the Clark/Superman dichotomy, ehen did the role of Krypton change, when did the Strawberry Blonde Jesus stuff start, and what was the explanation fir powers originally (the margin notes say it was both gravity AND the sun originally but vaguely with no physical dynamics like what Byrne gave)