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  1. #1456
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    Let's agree to disagree, because I have absolutely zero interest in discussing that. I finally posted here because I couldn't stand the constant bemoaning of Lois Lane not because used more, it's not to add even more fuel to it.
    Agree to your disagreement.

    Honestly, it might not even be necessarily fair to PKJ to knock him for this, as we have no idea what kind of directives he's been given from editorial and how much dibs Bendis has laid claim to in regards to Lois.

    And, since the last writer who went public with how badly editorial edicts can effect a story while still writing the comic got fired for doing so, I can totally understand why PKJ can't exactly come out and explain the situation (if that is indeed the case).

  2. #1457
    Astonishing Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    Agree to your disagreement.

    Honestly, it might not even be necessarily fair to PKJ to knock him for this, as we have no idea what kind of directives he's been given from editorial and how much dibs Bendis has laid claim to in regards to Lois.

    And, since the last writer who went public with how badly editorial edicts can effect a story while still writing the comic got fired for doing so, I can totally understand why PKJ can't exactly come out and explain the situation (if that is indeed the case).
    There's no indication there's any sort of editorial limit on her use at all and certainly no indication editorial would hamstring a new writer who wanted to use her because of Bendis.

    He's said several times since he was announced and got the pushback that she'll be seen in the books when they are set on Earth. I'm willing to give him a little leeway to see whether that ever materializes into an actual meaningful role beyond these family cameos that have been shown up to now. But there's nothing to indicate Bendis' use of her in Checkmate is the reason she's not being used meaningfully in the Super books. Besides that, her role in Checkmate isn't a secret. If that was the case all he'd have to say is that Lois is being featured in that.

  3. #1458
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    There's no indication there's any sort of editorial limit on her use at all and certainly no indication editorial would hamstring a new writer who wanted to use her because of Bendis.
    Well, not exactly. We know editorial wanted to give Lois a rest when Bendis came in. He's said as much on several occasions. It's entirely believable that the next writer coming in, one who does not have Bendis's pull, would be required to follow that directive.
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  4. #1459
    Astonishing Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    Well, not exactly. We know editorial wanted to give Lois a rest when Bendis came in. He's said as much on several occasions. It's entirely believable that the next writer coming in, one who does not have Bendis's pull, would be required to follow that directive.
    True, but none of those people are still on the book or even at DC anymore considering at the time Didio was really the one that appeared to be calling those type of shots. It's likely, from what we know now, that she would have stayed out in space with Jon and both their hiatuses would have been closer to a year. Bendis made the show of "bringing her back to Earth" immediately after she left in Man of Steel.

    In hindsight that may have made for a better story. Bendis tore through all those plot points so fast they didn't get to develop well. For all his decompression criticism I think his biggest fault in his Superman run was doing too much too fast.
    Last edited by Yoda; 04-18-2021 at 06:23 AM.

  5. #1460
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    True, but none of those people are still on the book or even at DC anymore considering at the time Didio was really the one that appeared to be calling those type of shots. It's likely, from what we know now, that she would have stayed out in space with Jon and both their hiatuses would have been closer to a year. Bendis made the show of "bringing her back to Earth" immediately after she left in Man of Steel.

    In hindsight that may have made for a better story. Bendis tore through all those plot points so fast they didn't get to develop well. For all his decompression criticism I think his biggest fault in his Superman run was doing too much too fast.
    I don't think the space thing came from the editors, I think that was Bendis. And while it certainly seems like editorial edicts have shifted across the board, I'm not sure that's the case with the Superman Office. There's been a lot of course correcting for characters like Wally and Dick, but with Superman, they seem to be doubling down. Johnson has said that he couldn't deage Jon even if he wanted to, which implies that the Superman editors seem to want to same things they did back when Didio was still around. That could easily include a reduced focus on Lois.
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  6. #1461
    Astonishing Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    I don't think the space thing came from the editors, I think that was Bendis. And while it certainly seems like editorial edicts have shifted across the board, I'm not sure that's the case with the Superman Office. There's been a lot of course correcting for characters like Wally and Dick, but with Superman, they seem to be doubling down. Johnson has said that he couldn't deage Jon even if he wanted to, which implies that the Superman editors seem to want to same things they did back when Didio was still around. That could easily include a reduced focus on Lois.
    I don't disagree that whoever the editorial is now, and I don't recognize any of the names, the use or not of Lois isn't even a factor in any decisions. I'm with you 100% on that. I just don't think this is a case where if he had had plans for her they would have said no or reduce them like was the case during the New 52 where her role was actively being minimized by editorial.

    He has said several times on twitter that he'll use her on Earth. It just remains to be seen whether that use will amount to anything beyond the cameos we've seen so far. He's reassured a few people that she'll continue to be a part of the books whenever they are on Earth and said she'll be a "huge" part of Jon's life that implied whatever the plans for that side of things are she may have a role. Its just that so far none of that seems to translate into being utilized in any meaningful way.

    That to me is on him and him alone. Like I said before they already established Waller has some shady stuff going on, seemingly contradicting Event Leviathan already, and that would seem to be a role you could easily plot Lois into. Instead we've gotten Daily Planet focused stories on Bibbo and Ambush Bug.

  7. #1462
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    I don't disagree that whoever the editorial is now, and I don't recognize any of the names, the use or not of Lois isn't even a factor in any decisions. I'm with you 100% on that. I just don't think this is a case where if he had had plans for her they would have said no or reduce them like was the case during the New 52 where her role was actively being minimized by editorial.

    He has said several times on twitter that he'll use her on Earth. It just remains to be seen whether that use will amount to anything beyond the cameos we've seen so far. He's reassured a few people that she'll continue to be a part of the books whenever they are on Earth and said she'll be a "huge" part of Jon's life that implied whatever the plans for that side of things are she may have a role. Its just that so far none of that seems to translate into being utilized in any meaningful way.

    That to me is on him and him alone. Like I said before they already established Waller has some shady stuff going on, seemingly contradicting Event Leviathan already, and that would seem to be a role you could easily plot Lois into. Instead we've gotten Daily Planet focused stories on Bibbo and Ambush Bug.
    Oh, I'm not saying it's definitely editorial doing this. It could easily be a Johnson thing. I just don't think the editorial decision possibility can be discounted.
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  8. #1463
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    Let's agree to disagree, because I have absolutely zero interest in discussing that. I finally posted here because I couldn't stand the constant bemoaning of Lois Lane not because used more, it's not to add even more fuel to it.
    Today is literally the anniversary of Action Comics #1óa book Lois and only Lois appeared in with Superman.

    So you can be annoyed until the cows come home that people care about Lois, love her and complain when sheís marginalized from Superman books but the joke is not on Lois itís on you.

    You have zero interest in Lois and youíve made that perfectly clear. In your ideal world she wouldnít be important and would barely matter. But thatís not actually what Superman is.

    In the history of Superman, sheís number 2. Second to Superman alone. Thatís the story. Itís not a story you accept but that doesnít make it not the truth. And people are allowed to complain and be upset and raise the alarm for as much as they want for as long as they want if they feel sheís being mistreated.

    If you donít like it? Superman, as a WHOLE, historically, probably isnít for you. But I hope you find other superheroes you like better.

  9. #1464
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    Setting aside Checkmate, in what why does Lois "rely on her familial privileges" in any respect greater than Wonder Woman? I mean really, Sam Lane is a small portion of Lois' story at best, and to the extent that he has been utilized is presented as opposition to her in most if not all respects. She actively chooses to not follow a path that would rely on his status to help her achieve, and enters into a profession where it wouldn't benefit her and may actually be a detriment. In the US at least, most major non-conservative news organizations would not see "Dad's a powerful general and part of the military industrial complex" as a plus.

    In what way is Wonder Woman's immigrant status or "being a fish out of water" in any way something she has to overcome other than not knowing what ice cream is when first introduced? She's presented as white, heterosexual, unworldly beautiful, frequently immortal, never wants for money, status, or position, and utilizes the "privileges" she was born with - her powers that descend from being a literal goddess currently, to overcome any and all impediments. Frankly her "fish out of water status" is more unbelievable and ridiculous aspect of the character.
    Right. It’s absolutely absurd.

    I love Wonder Woman but “privilege” is not a thread you want to pull on when talking about the character. DC Comics won’t allow her to be openly queer (to their detriment imo) and they refuse to engage openly in the more titillating aspects of Paradise Island so this is all a non starter.

    Diana as she stands is renowned as the most beautiful woman in the world with every power and luxury at her disposal. She’s white, exceptionally physically privileged and shown living in penthouses wearing designer fashion even in her most recent film. I love the character and none of this is a knock on Wonder Woman. She’s my favorite female superhero. But it’s beyond disingenuous to come on a Superman thread, crap all over Lois Lane for “privilege” when you are actually totally in favor of marginalizing her in favor of Wonder Woman as Superman’s love interest.

    Also, Wonder Woman arguably isn’t even an immigrant—she’s an ambassador. She :.can:: and likely will return home at some point in the future. Most of the time, her home and culture ::is:reserved and not in mortal danger. Superman is also not an immigrant per se—he’s an infant refugee. His culture is dead. His blood family dead save Kara. They actually have completely DIFFERENT experiences of privilege in that regard.

    Again, I LOVE Wonder Woman and I’ll wax poetic on how she’s great and important for hours on end but I’m not playing this disingenuous game about Lois Lane. Not on literally the anniversary of the day Action 1 was released. Some of us have actually read the books about Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster that detail at length the role Joanne Siegel played through the years.

    So nah. We aren’t gonna lie about Lois Lane today. If you want to be disingenuous about why she matters and why she has always mattered, go do it somewhere else.

    As for the editorial vs. individual question: I have no idea tbh. I truly wish I knew.
    Last edited by Nelliebly; 04-18-2021 at 01:12 PM.

  10. #1465
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaVi View Post
    the secondary superman characters have a very obvious problem, they are normal humans, that means they cannot be part of the action, not unless they become a nuisance or the damsel in distress, that's why many writers leave them to a side. It is not the fault of the characters, in their time they fulfilled their role, but they have not evolved (the superverse has not evolved). I would be delighted with a comic focused on clark as a journalist and therefore without powers, it would be the perfect comic to develop the entire secondary universe and make sense of those legendary characters.
    There is literally a TV show on right now where Lois Lane quits the Daily Planet because of the modern issues with mass media, clickbait and the purchasing of headlines.

    After 5 episodes itís the most downloaded show in the history of the network.

    Lois has evolved just fine. She has survived every single feminist movement, every era, every decade. Her role as truth teller is just as important today as it was 83(?) years ago. The misogyny she faces in her profession is also just as real/-itís just DIFFERENT.

    Stop saying she is the problem. She is not the problem. Itís the lack of creativity in terms of how to tell these stories with the books thatís the issue.

  11. #1466
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    Let's agree to disagree, because I have absolutely zero interest in discussing that. I finally posted here because I couldn't stand the constant bemoaning of Lois Lane not because used more, it's not to add even more fuel to it.
    Whether you like it or not Lois is part and parcel of the Superman mythos and had been since the very beginning. There will always be some of us who want that role she occupies to be respected/acknowledged. She doesn't need to be in every issue or involved actively in every story but her presence in the books needs to reflect her importance/relevance to the mythos. Currently, that should be in these back up stories involving the Daily Planet since space is something PKJ won't let her get involved, not even things concerning her own son (for the latter, I at least need to see it to believe it). A glorified cameo doesnt cut it for me.

    I heard Checkmate was a mini and Oliver looks to be the lead so that's not going to be some big thing for her either, at least not for long.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nelliebly View Post

    Lois has evolved just fine. She has survived every single feminist movement, every era, every decade. Her role as truth teller is just as important today as it was 83(?) years ago. The misogyny she faces in her profession is also just as real/-it’s just DIFFERENT.

    Stop saying she is the problem. She is not the problem. It’s the lack of creativity in terms of how to tell these stories with the books that’s the issue.
    This.
    Last edited by rpmaluki; 04-18-2021 at 01:32 PM.

  12. #1467
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nelliebly View Post
    There is literally a TV show on right now where Lois Lane quits the Daily Planet because of the modern issues with mass media, clickbait and the purchasing of headlines.

    After 5 episodes itís the most downloaded show in the history of the network.

    Lois has evolved just fine. She has survived every single feminist movement, every era, every decade. Her role as truth teller is just as important today as it was 83(?) years ago. The misogyny she faces in her profession is also just as real/-itís just DIFFERENT.

    Stop saying she is the problem. She is not the problem. Itís the lack of creativity in terms of how to tell these stories with the books thatís the issue.
    For many years the secondary universe of Superman has become simple extras of his stories, even lois with everything that means is an extra except in very specific moments, the lois of the series is a step forward and I hope it continues in that direction, but it is a series very far from the comics.

  13. #1468
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaVi View Post
    For many years the secondary universe of Superman has become simple extras of his stories, even lois with everything that means is an extra except in very specific moments, the lois of the series is a step forward and I hope it continues in that direction, but it is a series very far from the comics.
    No it’s not. It’s heavily inspired by the Rebirth comics except, imo, with far better and more nuanced worldviews. It’s the best of the Rebirth concept but heavily improved.

    The series is the natural successor to Lois and Clark + Smallville.

    Most downloaded show in the history of the network.

    If the comics are off base from Superman media that is resonating with people that’s a condemnation of the medium—not of Superman and Lois Lane as mythic characters.

  14. #1469
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    The idea that lois lane was ever just an average everyday reporter is the absurd claim.She was part of main cast of action comic with a guy leaping tall buildings.She was flying war planes and beating baddies from the get go.Heck yeah!she can be a spy.I say she can be queen of England.This is fiction.
    "I swear to devote my life to the destruction of piracy, greed, cruelty and injustice! And my sons, and their sons, shall follow me!"

  15. #1470
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Iím curious: In your ideal world how would Jon be used/treated?
    Ideally I want Immortal Hulk by way of Ultimate Spider-Man. A kid with power far beyond what he (or the world) is ready for trying to figure it and himself out while responsibility is thrust upon him. It's a world of cardboard and instead of being a careful and self-assured adult, you're f%&king 17, and maybe don't even want to do this, but every move you make because of who and what you are has ripple.

    It's what PKJ seems to be building towards, and I'm all in.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!"

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