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  1. #1471
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nelliebly View Post
    No itís not. Itís heavily inspired by the Rebirth comics except, imo, with far better and more nuanced worldviews. Itís the best of the Rebirth concept but heavily improved.

    The series is the natural successor to Lois and Clark + Smallville.

    Most downloaded show in the history of the network.

    If the comics are off base from Superman media that is resonating with people thatís a condemnation of the mediumónot of Superman and Lois Lane as mythic characters.
    is inspired but takes the idea much further, the current lois of the comics is very different from the series as well as the entire universe that surrounds it. Obviously it is not the characters' fault, I have always believed that being both Clark and Lois journalists gives the superverse infinite possibilities, I would buy without hesitation a comic that focuses on them as journalists. The series reaches more people, but the cinema especially the blockbusters even more, and the last lois of the cinema are boredom without personality, which have done a lot of damage to the character, it is not the fault of the actresses but it is what there is

  2. #1472
    Extraordinary Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Ideally I want Immortal Hulk by way of Ultimate Spider-Man. A kid with power far beyond what he (or the world) is ready for trying to figure it and himself out while responsibility is thrust upon him. It's a world of cardboard and instead of being a careful and self-assured adult, you're f%&king 17, and maybe don't even want to do this, but every move you make because of who and what you are has ripple.

    It's what PKJ seems to be building towards, and I'm all in.
    With Invincible being a success thereís definitely a market for ďson of major hero steps up to be the next major heroĒ type stories.
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  3. #1473
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    With Invincible being a success thereís definitely a market for ďson of major hero steps up to be the next major heroĒ type stories.
    Yeah, I think Invincible's growing popularity, and its clear parallels to the Superman story post-Jon, is going to be a factor.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!"

    - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  4. #1474
    Astonishing Member Blue22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    With Invincible being a success there’s definitely a market for “son of major hero steps up to be the next major hero” type stories.
    There's always been a market for "son surpassing their famous Dad" type of stories. Which is another reason why I wish they hadn't gone that route with Jon. They really wanna push this "He'll be a stronger, better Superman than his dad ever was" angle when the lesson that Lois taught him in the Rebirth era was such a breath of fresh air. Of course DC would inevitably go down this creatively bankrupt "Next Superman" route with him. But I liked where it felt like it was going in....either Action or Superman, I can't remember where Lois and Jon had that conversation. That he shouldn't worry about measuring up to or surpassing his Dad. He should just focus on being...himself. I have zero interest in seeing Jon be better or stronger than Clark. I definitely have zero interest in seeing him fill Clark's shoes (literally, in this case, since his costume is damn near identical to Clark's now -___-). So when this run is over, I'm really hoping his time in that position makes him realize that's not what he wants to be for the rest of his life. Because MAN, he is so uninteresting now.

    I know DBZ comparisons to Superman are really overplayed, in fact I'm cringing from just typing this, but that's one of the things I appreciated the most about Gohan and the path he ended up going down (Though there's no excuse for how weak he got. Even if it led to a nice little character arc for him in Super). He was a hero and damn good one, just like his father. But he was so much more than Goku's offspring by the time he grew up. Hell, he was already more than that as a child.

    I forgive a kid Jon emulating his father to a degree. Especially since, personality-wise, there was a big enough difference for me to enjoy the character still. But like...you're grown now, dude. Become who you are. Don't just be "Superman but a slightly quirky teenager with attitude". I'd say "don't be Superman at all" but it's too late for that. PKJ's given me plenty of reason to trust him so far. So I'm hoping he can find a creative way to make lemonade out of the lemons that have been Jon's character for the past 3 or so years. But with this whole "next Superman" business apparently being something DC ordered, I'm not incredibly hopeful that there's a lot he can do. I'd just like it to be more interesting than what he and the solicits describe it as.

    Honestly...it may be your standard CW fare, but that's one of the reasons I kinda appreciate what they've done with him in this newest Superman show. Not exactly something I'd want for his comic counterpart. But I appreciate it.
    Last edited by Blue22; 04-19-2021 at 09:39 AM.

  5. #1475
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Just my opinion, but I think it's borderline insulting to your intelligence as a reader to go "oh yeah, the son of Superman and Lois Lane? Yeah, he's not in line to be the next Superman. He's gonna be Shooting f%&king Star Man or whatever the hell." That's the bell you ring when you sit down and go "okay, we're seriously going to do the No-Bull-Shit-Son-Of-Superman-And-Lois-In-Continuity." That character has an expectation placed on them unlike literally no other character DC or Marvel has. People wanna bring up Conner Kent like there's even a remote comparison to be made there, but there isn't. Conner, Steel, and Kara are all lateral moves in the Superman myth. They are off-shoots and derivatives that can functionally happen at roughly any point in the myth. I'm not overstating anything when I say this: Jon is an event comparable to Clark telling Lois or Clark dying. He, by his very nature, is a movement forward.

    Taking that level of gravitas and telling me that he just becomes literally anything but Superman II is telling the reader/viewer that you don't think they're paying attention. And the conversation between Lois and Jon you're thinking of was in Superman by Tomasi. But you're forgetting not just the context of that whole run, but also the context of that issue itself. In that issue Eradicator says that the son of Superman will be the undoing of the House of El, and Clark says that the Jon is the future of the House of El, and that the House of El belongs to him. Then he asks the ghost of the dead Kryptonians how they feel about that, and they give him the thumbs up. Your reading that what Lois meant was that "you be something besides Superman" is just one take, and a take that's near total counter to the rest of the run and issue.

    Lois actual quote even goes "but for now, the simple fact is when it comes to Superman, no one even comes close". The implication for the whole thing and the run being Jon has to make the role he's been born for his own. That's why you have him question Clark's way of doing things in Black Dawn, and show that he'll be working on a higher level of power in that run.

    The point that I'll always agree on is that he should clearly have his own take on the role, and I think being reluctant about it, being a bit more sloppy (as PKJ put it), and being that much more powerful and taking on the role at that age is an fundamental enough shift that you're already working with a new take. And apparently we're also adding in the fact that he feels perpetually without a place to call home? That's not Clark. That's actually the least Clark Jon's been since his creation.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!"

    - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  6. #1476
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    I mean it's like the legacy of Superman, more like Morrison's Superman Dynasty in One Million, a line of Superhuman with S on there chest,
    so maybe Jon can be a first step towards that?

  7. #1477
    Astonishing Member Blue22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Just my opinion, but I think it's borderline insulting to your intelligence as a reader to go "oh yeah, the son of Superman and Lois Lane? Yeah, he's not in line to be the next Superman. He's gonna be Shooting f%&king Star Man or whatever the hell." That's the bell you ring when you sit down and go "okay, we're seriously going to do the No-Bull-Shit-Son-Of-Superman-And-Lois-In-Continuity." That character has an expectation placed on them unlike literally no other character DC or Marvel has.
    And, personally, I feel it's not only insulting but a total waste to go "Oh yeah. The son of Superman and Lois Lane? Yeah let's just slap on a costume that makes him look exactly like his dad, throw in some angst, groom him into redundancy, and BAM new Superman." As if him being the son of Superman and Lois means Superman is all he can be. Of course he's gonna take after his parents. Most people do. Of course he's going to have expectations placed on him. But that doesn't mean he HAS to live up to them. And it makes for a far more compelling story to see a character like Jon just...not do that. I like the idea of him struggling with those expectations and all the pressure that would naturally be put on him by being the son of Superman but ultimately, I think it'd be better if he just said "fuck it" and worked less towards being what he thinks he should be as Superman's son and more on what he thinks he should be as Jonathan Kent or whatever other "Not Superman" name he wants to go by. He can be a part of his father's legacy without filling his father's shoes. Like how all of the Robins are still a part of Batman's legacy. This whole "he's got the burden of his father's responsibilities" thing is just too...expected. It's played out. It's a boring take on the otherwise good idea that is Superman having a child.

    And the conversation between Lois and Jon you're thinking of was in Superman by Tomasi. But you're forgetting not just the context of that whole run, but also the context of that issue itself. In that issue Eradicator says that the son of Superman will be the undoing of the House of El, and Clark says that the Jon is the future of the House of El, and that the House of El belongs to him. Then he asks the ghost of the dead Kryptonians how they feel about that, and they give him the thumbs up. Your reading that what Lois meant was that "you be something besides Superman" is just one take, and a take that's near total counter to the rest of the run and issue.
    1. Thank you for reminding me where it was from because not remembering was bugging the hell out of me lol

    2. Having re-read the issue now...I honestly feel even more strongly about what I was saying before. Jon is the future of the House of El, there's no denying that. He's literally Clark's only offspring. By virtue of existing, he is the legacy of the House of El. And if he ever plans on starting a family (which we've learned, in both House of El and Super Sons, he will) they will also be its future. That's not where my issue is. He can lead the House of El into a new era without being Superman. And without being like his father in any other way.

    That said, I still think Lois' words (like a lot of that run) is up for interpretation. Because even with a reminder of the context, I'm still getting the same vibes of "Just be you. Don't worry about being Clark." Even with the "For now" bit she tacked on at the end. We do see in the Manchester Black arc that Superman is Jon's future....But, just as I expressed back when that issue first came out, I don't like it. Just because it happened in a run that I enjoyed doesn't mean I think it's a good idea. But I didn't dwell on it too much because it was still early on in Jon's existence and things could still change. I was just enjoying the ride that was a father teaching his son to not necessarily be the best replacement Superman that he can be. But to be the best person and the best hero that he can be.

    Which is the same vibe I'm getting from PKJ's run, thank God. But, unfortunately, it's not only marred by all the mistakes made with Jon in the previous era but by the future we know is right around the corner in this one. There's no more room for interpretation with Jon's future and Clark's plans for it now. At this point it's pretty much set in stone that Jon IS Superman and gets all the same weight and burdens that come with it. And I hate that. Will it be a permanent thing for him? Who knows? God, I hope not. But for now, it just ain't for me. It's not what I was interested in this character for. I don't care that he's this super mysterious and complex anomaly with the potential to be better than Superman ever was or some shit. I don't care about his angst over whether or not he can properly fill Daddy's shoes (unless it leads to him deciding not to). The only remotely interesting part is dealing with the psychological aspects of the damage Bendis did to him. But even that's not really enough to get me excited.

    I dunno. I feel like he was a character with a lot of potential to be a lot of different things, and they decided to go with the safest, most boring and uncreative route instead of going with anything that would have been more fun. Or memorable. Cuz right now, he's not really...either to me anymore. As a kid, the mini-Supes angle was cute. It was charming. It was fun. Tomasi really had a knack for writing him in a way where he still felt like he was his own person. Especially in Super Sons. But now that he's grown and I've pretty much accepted that what I considered to be the heyday of his character is over...do something else. Even Damian, the character who was literally bred to usurp his father (another inevitability that I hope is MILES away if it ever actually comes), is out there living his best life and going down his own path. Not even worrying about Bruce or Gotham or any of that, while still being a hero. Jon needs some of that energy. And I hope he finds it in this run. Cuz right now I still find him to be that same stale piece of white toast that he was in Bendis run. He's just got some butter on him this time.
    Last edited by Blue22; 04-19-2021 at 11:29 AM.

  8. #1478
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Just my opinion, but I think it's borderline insulting to your intelligence as a reader to go "oh yeah, the son of Superman and Lois Lane? Yeah, he's not in line to be the next Superman. He's gonna be Shooting f%&king Star Man or whatever the hell." That's the bell you ring when you sit down and go "okay, we're seriously going to do the No-Bull-Shit-Son-Of-Superman-And-Lois-In-Continuity." That character has an expectation placed on them unlike literally no other character DC or Marvel has. People wanna bring up Conner Kent like there's even a remote comparison to be made there, but there isn't. Conner, Steel, and Kara are all lateral moves in the Superman myth. They are off-shoots and derivatives that can functionally happen at roughly any point in the myth. I'm not overstating anything when I say this: Jon is an event comparable to Clark telling Lois or Clark dying. He, by his very nature, is a movement forward.

    Taking that level of gravitas and telling me that he just becomes literally anything but Superman II is telling the reader/viewer that you don't think they're paying attention. And the conversation between Lois and Jon you're thinking of was in Superman by Tomasi. But you're forgetting not just the context of that whole run, but also the context of that issue itself. In that issue Eradicator says that the son of Superman will be the undoing of the House of El, and Clark says that the Jon is the future of the House of El, and that the House of El belongs to him. Then he asks the ghost of the dead Kryptonians how they feel about that, and they give him the thumbs up. Your reading that what Lois meant was that "you be something besides Superman" is just one take, and a take that's near total counter to the rest of the run and issue.

    Lois actual quote even goes "but for now, the simple fact is when it comes to Superman, no one even comes close". The implication for the whole thing and the run being Jon has to make the role he's been born for his own. That's why you have him question Clark's way of doing things in Black Dawn, and show that he'll be working on a higher level of power in that run.

    The point that I'll always agree on is that he should clearly have his own take on the role, and I think being reluctant about it, being a bit more sloppy (as PKJ put it), and being that much more powerful and taking on the role at that age is an fundamental enough shift that you're already working with a new take. And apparently we're also adding in the fact that he feels perpetually without a place to call home? That's not Clark. That's actually the least Clark Jon's been since his creation.
    I agree with all of this.

    Also, I think a lot of people would like to see him embrace more of Lois’s traits and way of doing things (as Jurgens always intended him to do) but I don’t think embracing Lois means he is farther away from Superman. If you recognize that Superman as a symbol.is something his mother actively helper foster and protect for the public, it’s not hard to understand that he can both be more like his mother but still feel Superman is his eventual calling not because he’s a clone of his father but because this is both of his parents’ dream, life’s work, legacy etc.

  9. #1479
    Astonishing Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Apart from any in-story concerns, rejecting the Superboy/Superman moniker and branding is a surefire way for a quick slide into irrelevancy for Jon. I think Nightwing and later Red Hood were really the only ones that have adapted. Tim, Conner and Donna Troy essentially lost all place and relevance once they dropped the legacy names. With comic fans in particular there is a huge issue as to what "counts" and once they lose those names they don't seem to "count" anymore.

    That's a practical consideration from a company POV though. Not storywise.

  10. #1480
    Extraordinary Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Jon and Damian taking up their fathers mantles is too easy a hook for them to end up anywhere else. For Jon in particular they’ve basically established that he’s already a mini version of his dad. I think I mentioned already that Jurgens talked up Jon having his mom’s personality, but there’s little to no Lois in Jon. He’s not snarky or cynical, he’s sweet and sincere like his dad, he grew up on a farm like his dad, he wears glasses to his his identity like his dad, and so on and so forth. The CW Jon hating Smallville and missing Metropolis feels far truer of what a Jon who takes more after his mom would be like imo. In an ideal world Jon would have some of his mom’s bite to him, he’d be willing to get mean, he’d be more confrontational with authority, but aside from some brief nods to that in Future State, he’s just... Clark Jr.

    Perfect example is DCeased Jon which a lot of people say is “aged up Jon done right”. Totally fair that people felt that way but that Jon is Clark in every aspect. It’s why I’m terrified Taylor will be the one who gets one of the books and does Jon as Superman. I could see the logic for it too, he did one adult Jon why not another? But his take is just so boring and would be a complete waste imo. I’m sure others would love it though.
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  11. #1481
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue22 View Post
    I don't care that he's this super mysterious and complex anomaly with the potential to be better than Superman ever was or some shit. I don't care about his angst over whether or not he can properly fill Daddy's shoes (unless it leads to him deciding not to). The only remotely interesting part is dealing with the psychological aspects of the damage Bendis did to him. But even that's not really enough to get me excited.
    Your complaints about this Jon being a "mini Clark" become all the more perplexing when you're being presented with more than sizable character defining deviations here. It's particularly odd when the version of Jon you hold up in such high regard is a borderline near acknowledged parody of his father, and was written and designed to primarily poke fun and play with that as his primary story thrust. It not being what you personally had in mind is one thing, but-- and I'm not saying you said it in so many words in this post-- it's no longer correct to say this Jon is the "mini Clark" with no overt unique aspects that define him from not just his dad, but the whole family.

    But now that he's grown and I've pretty much accepted that what I considered to be the heyday of his character is over...do something else. Even Damian, the character who was literally bred to usurp his father (another inevitability that I hope is MILES away if it ever actually comes), is out there living his best life and going down his own path. Not even worrying about Bruce or Gotham or any of that, while still being a hero. Jon needs some of that energy. And I hope he finds it in this run. Cuz right now I still find him to be that same stale piece of white toast that he was in Bendis run. He's just got some butter on him this time.
    The crazy thing is, as much as people like to parallel them, Damian doesn't hold the same narrative water Jon does. Don't get this confused with marketing or the inherent popularity of Batman. We're speaking narratively and conceptually. Regardless of his status as biological, Damian is but one child in a sea of Bat children. And narratively speaking, he's just the kid that *thinks* he should take the throne. And you'll notice that, like Conner, Kara, or Steel, Damian can functionally show up at any point in Bruce's life as Batman. His origin is deliberately in personal and compete with being force grown in a tank and having an estranged mom who isn't part of Bruce's life. That's done for the sake of keeping Damian a lateral move in the myth, so that Bruce remains young. So obviously Damian just going off to be this, I dunno, Mortal Kombat Robin thing is perfectly in line with his creation because he's not forward movement. On the Superman side, there's been a conscious effort to *never* call anyone Superman's actual child for more than a story or two. Conner *isn't* his son. Even Chris, who by all rights functioned as his child (down to calling Lois mom), was rarely-- if ever-- called the son of Superman. That's why ringing the Son of Superman and Lois bell is so big. And they doubled down too. Jon is the opposition to Damian even now after everything. His being makes Clark and Lois feel like they can't possibly be stuck in their late 20s or early 30s anymore. You inherently move Superman forward in his story wherever Jon shows up. Superman & Lois has to open up with the adventures of Superman that we're used to as a PROLOG because the birth of a kid *must* skip it.

    All of the cute, fun, and wholesome aspects that we like about Jon and his relationship with his parents is the exact reason why him being next in line is 2+2=4. Not calling him Superman's heir is like arguing semantics if you're writing his concept honestly. You'll argue "well, it allows him to be his own man, step outside of Clark's shadow, and make his own legacy". No. He's the actual Son of Superman & Lois, and that's a brand his concept will wear in its DNA. That comparison will *always* be there because of who he is on a conceptual level. You have to play the ball where it's at with him. You wanna make him his own man? You'd better, but just remember that man is going to be a Superman. Calling him something else is semantics at best, and outright disingenuous at worst.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!"

    - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  12. #1482
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Perfect example is DCeased Jon which a lot of people say is “aged up Jon done right”. Totally fair that people felt that way but that Jon is Clark in every aspect. It’s why I’m terrified Taylor will be the one who gets one of the books and does Jon as Superman. I could see the logic for it too, he did one adult Jon why not another? But his take is just so boring and would be a complete waste imo. I’m sure others would love it though.
    Totally agree. But I'll also add that Taylor is off my list because Nightwing was real, real not good.

    It's actually downed on me a few days ago that Jon is a character who has actually never been written alone EVER in his publication history. And a friend brought up that the character defining Jon Kent story is very much still to be written. Just think for a second...how many times have you ever read Jon's internal narration? Twice. It was the two issues of Future Sate Superman. And this is a character that's been around for 6 years. This is a honest to goodness affliction because whenever I'd hear the kid Jon crowd talking about what they'd lost with him it would *always* be in relation to Damian or Clark.

    Jon standing up to his dad and saying he doesn't want to be Superman because of what it means (Clark going away, and the pressure) is one of the few examples of an unexpected character aspect of his that still plays well in bounds with his concept. And because this is heroic fiction (and fiction in general) we want to do what the characters say they don't want. So early on establishing that unlike Damian Jon doesn't want to be Superman (something hinted at in Bendis' run), we leave the door open for some real internal conflict and growth.

    We seem to be heading towards a Jon Superman book, and the set up for some deep rooted internal stuff is there, so hopefully finally get that run and perspective because it's overdo for the character.
    Last edited by Superlad93; 04-19-2021 at 01:05 PM.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!"

    - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  13. #1483
    Astonishing Member Blue22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Your complaints about this Jon being a "mini Clark" become all the more perplexing when you're being presented with more than sizable character defining deviations here. It's particularly odd when the version of Jon you hold up in such high regard is a borderline near acknowledged parody of his father, and was written and designed to primarily poke fun and play with that as his primary story thrust. It not being what you personally had in mind is one thing, but-- and I'm not saying you said it in so many words in this post-- it's no longer correct to say this Jon is the "mini Clark" with no overt unique aspects that define him from not just his dad, but the whole family.
    Ya kinda ignored the part where I said I was okay with it for a kid version of Jon. Specifically because he was all of those things, a fun borderline parody of his Dad. I liked that angle for him...as a kid. It's one of those things you can get away with and even still have fun with while a character is still a child. Because of course he's gonna wanna emulate his Dad. Starting out as his father's shadow is a great and natural place for him to start...But that shouldn't be where he stays. Some time has passed now, he's grown up (for better or worse...leaning more towards worse), he's experienced life outside of Superman's bubble both as a child, through his adventures with Damian, and through the rest of his adolescence out in that ill advised space trip (Where his mother borderline abandons him. But that's a whole different rant for another day). He's had seven years worth of sloppily rushed experience just to still wanna just be his Dad? Again. That sounds like a waste to me. That's always been one of my biggest fears with legacy characters. Seeing them just grow up to inherit their mentors' positions instead of carving out their own niches. It honestly feels kinda fucked up. Like the only reason you can give a character a child is so that the child can go grow up to replace them someday instead of at least trying to be their own thing.


    All of the cute, fun, and wholesome aspects that we like about Jon and his relationship with his parents is the exact reason why him being next in line is 2+2=4. Not calling him Superman's heir is like arguing semantics if you're writing his concept honestly. You'll argue "well, it allows him to be his own man, step outside of Clark's shadow, and make his own legacy". No. He's the actual Son of Superman & Lois, and that's a brand his concept will wear in its DNA. That comparison will *always* be there because of who he is on a conceptual level. You have to play the ball where it's at with him. You wanna make him his own man? You'd better, but just remember that man is going to be a Superman. Calling him something else is semantics at best, and outright disingenuous at worst.
    We'll have to agree to disagree on this particular part because I can see the same points are about to start being repeated lol

    You think him being Superman and Lois' son means he's destined to be Superman, only Superman, and never anything else? That by being a part of Clark's legacy that means he has to be locked into that specific role? And you're okay with that? That's cool. And I get it. And I'd never wanna tell you you're wrong for that. But I do still disagree. I think this heavy emphasis they're still putting on him measuring up to or surpassing Clark is an uninteresting waste. Not as infuriating of a waste as rushing through 7 years of growth off-screen. But it's still disappointing. It's the exact opposite of what I love about legacy characters and expanded Superhero families. it's just way too limiting for my taste. So while I do appreciate PKJ for writing a very good Clark and a very good dynamic between him and Jon so far...I just don't care anymore. We've been told where this is going and it's not really anything I'd care to continue reading aside from maybe popping in and every now and then to see if anything has changed.
    Last edited by Blue22; 04-19-2021 at 01:34 PM.

  14. #1484
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue22 View Post
    .But that shouldn't be where he stays. Some time has passed now, he's grown up (for better or worse...leaning more towards worse), he's experienced life outside of Superman's bubble both as a child, through his adventures with Damian, and through the rest of his adolescence out in that ill advised space trip (Where his mother borderline abandons him. But that's a whole different rant for another day). He's had seven years worth of sloppily rushed experience just to still wanna just be his Dad?
    Either you haven't read the new issues (or parts of Bendis' run) or you're ignoring them. He specifically *doesn't* want to have to live up to the legacy that's being pushed upon him by all sides. Every time someone has called him "Superman" since Man of Steel he's made a point to correct them. When Damian says that he's "almost Superman" he has a somber look on his face. He still clearly admires and loves his dad, and what his dad means to the world, but being Superman is something he now actively dreads in part because it means his dad will be gone in some way, and in part because of the pressure and responsibility that comes with that and his feelings of perpetually not being ready.

    And as the Specter stated in the Infinite Frontier story, Jon's a person that is now "unmoored" and feels lost. These are irrefutable changes in character that can only be dismissed via willful ignorance. And it's this narrative shift to not wanting the title for a number of reasons that means the compelling avenue for continued conflict (thus compelling story) is him having to deal with the title, because story is built on characters doing things they don't want to do or think they can't do.

    You think him being Superman and Lois' son means he's destined to be Superman, only Superman, and never anything else? That by being a part of Clark's legacy that means he has to be locked into that specific role? And you're okay with that?
    Like I said, semantics as far as the name goes. He can still be co Superman and function as his own character. Miles over at Marvel proves this very easily, and that's a character who too was created to be Spider-Man, and shouldn't ever be anything less, but that doesn't at all mean he's just a copy of Peter because they call themselves the same thing. I'm no more hung up on Jon narrative destiny being Superman than I am with Miles being Spider-Man.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!"

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    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  15. #1485
    Astonishing Member Blue22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Either you haven't read the new issues (or parts of Bendis' run) or you're ignoring them. He specifically *doesn't* want to have to live up to the legacy that's being pushed upon him by all sides. Every time someone has called him "Superman" since Man of Steel he's made a point to correct them. When Damian says that he's "almost Superman" he has a somber look on his face. He still clearly admires and loves his dad, and what his dad means to the world, but being Superman is something he now actively dreads in part because it means his dad will be gone in some way, and in part because of the pressure and responsibility that comes with that and his feelings of perpetually not being ready.
    That was a poor choice of words on my part I apologize for that bit of confusion but yes. I do see that he doesn't necessarily want the burden of being Superman and that it weighs heavily on him. As I said in a previous post, that little bit of struggle is something I do like. It's the end result of him, ultimately, embracing it and taking up the mantle that I don't like. It's more than just the name. It's everything that comes with it. It's everything that name means and all of its weight and responsibility. It's cool that it will be something that he'd be able to handle. But, it's not something I'm interested in seeing him handle. It's not just a name he's inheriting. It's a role.

    And as the Specter stated in the Infinite Frontier story, Jon's a person that is now "unmoored" and feels lost. These are irrefutable changes in character that can only be dismissed via willful ignorance. And it's this narrative shift to not wanting the title for a number of reasons that means the compelling avenue for continued conflict (thus compelling story) is him having to deal with the title, because story is built on characters doing things they don't want to do or think they can't do.
    And, again, I acknowledged that before. But it's just not an avenue that I find all that compelling because it all eventually comes to a conclusion that I don't really care to see.

    Like I said, semantics as far as the name goes. He can still be co Superman and function as his own character.
    He could. But I don't trust the odds of that happening. Especially now with all the emphasis still being on comparing him to Clark and focusing on who he is in relation to how well he does in comparison to Clark. It's all "Can he live up to Clark's legacy?", "Is he as strong as Clark?", "Is he more powerful than Clark?", "Can he survive without Clark?", blah, blah, blah. I don't care about who he is in relation to Clark anymore. It feels like PKJ is starting to kinda get that but there's still that nagging "I'm the replacement Superman" stuff that I hope will die down some once he's firmly established as Superman (Not that I want him firmly established as Superman but if this is where we're setting the stone at least make it worth it)

    Miles over at Marvel proves this very easily, and that's a character who too was created to be Spider-Man, and shouldn't ever be anything less, but that doesn't at all mean he's just a copy of Peter because they call themselves the same thing. I'm no more hung up on Jon narrative destiny being Superman than I am with Miles being Spider-Man.
    (Honestly now that they're both in the picture, I'd actually really like Miles to find his own name. But that's neither here nor there. The name itself isn't really the most important part)

    Characters like Miles and Wally are exceptions to my stance on the matter (with Wally actually being my preferred Flash) but they're not the norm. More often than not, you won't find me being a big fan of those kinds of characters. You gotta really work to make these characters seem different to make me okay with them basically growing up into their mentors roles (though Miles' case is a little different since he didn't start out as a "Spider-boy" or anything like that and was essentially his own character from the very beginning). It's very possible that it could happen with Jon and I end up coming around to it but right now, just on from what I'm hearing and what I'm seeing...none of it clicks with me. It all just sounds very run of the mill "junior grows up and inherits daddy's job" stuff. Like...it's a concept that can work and has worked in fiction before (which is why it's become such an overused trope) but because it's been done so much, I expect to see....more from the concept when it's used again.

    Like...what makes this so different? Why spend money reading this when I could just watch the same scenario be done in a more unique and interesting way through a series like My Hero Academia or even JoJo and Boruto (though Giorno, Jolyne, and Boruto might be better examples of Damian than Jon)? Every modern story is built on a cliche but there's nothing I'm seeing that makes this cliche stand out enough for me to really care. And that's really all it comes down to here. My personal feelings on it. And I personally think Jon's story is just a more boring version of Deku's.

    It just ain't something I want or how I want it. It doesn't feel different enough. Jon being a "different" kind of Superman could have work for me (in fact I believe I talked about what I would have done in a different thread). But right now....it ain't hitting.
    Last edited by Blue22; 04-19-2021 at 03:15 PM.

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