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  1. #1501
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    I think tomasi had planned for jon to be a kid for a while.His arc with the titans, league...etc.Him going nuclear,jon's overall growth into a hero from a more of an adventurer perspective (personally don't give a damn about jon being hero) was all cut short.They just sent him to space.
    "I swear to devote my life to the destruction of piracy, greed, cruelty and injustice! And my sons, and their sons, shall follow me!"

  2. #1502
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneveryfineday View Post
    Just to add some perspective to the discussion, there’s this old Dan Jurgens interview from before Rebirth.



    In hindsight and considering Jon’s trajectory it sounds like Jurgens pitched Jon as the potential next Superman, as it wouldn’t make sense otherwise for him to stress the character’s future importance in relation to the company. It’s not a Dick-Grayson-as-temporary-Batman kind of scenario. The kid is literally the man of tomorrow. Based on this I agree with Superlad that Jon was conceived as “Superman Jr./direct heir” than “adjacent Superboy”. I’d add that the age-up was was probably an inevitable and necessary part of his arc (even if the way it happened was poorly executed IMO).
    I don't think an age up was inevitable or necessary. The stuff with Jon suceeding his father works in a generic sense without him needing to be aged up in the near future. And I definitely don't see Tomasi or Jurgens having Jon be tortured for seven years separated from his parents on Earth 3.


    Considering how disliked current Jon is right now, a crowd-pleasing writer who already has fans’ goodwill might be what the character needs, otherwise I think Jon Superman is going to struggle. I’d guess that DC probably has a contingency plan to make Jon a kid again just in case, but personally I’d like to see him get a good shot at succeeding his concept.
    I can tell you right now it doesn't matter who they put on the book. I'm never going to accept this version of Jon who was separated and tortured for seven years from the age of 10 to 17. Anything else is secondary to Jon getting de-aged. That's why I've already written off PKJ's run as pointless. If's he's not going to fix the problem he's effectively part of the problem by perpetuating it.

  3. #1503
    Astonishing Member Blue22's Avatar
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    To be fair, he's said that he couldn't age Jon down even if he wanted to. It's all DC keeping him this way. So I can at least appreciate him trying to recapture part of what people loved about Tomasi's run.

  4. #1504
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artemisfanboy View Post
    I don't think an age up was inevitable or necessary. The stuff with Jon suceeding his father works in a generic sense without him needing to be aged up in the near future. And I definitely don't see Tomasi or Jurgens having Jon be tortured for seven years separated from his parents on Earth 3.

    I can tell you right now it doesn't matter who they put on the book. I'm never going to accept this version of Jon who was separated and tortured for seven years from the age of 10 to 17. Anything else is secondary to Jon getting de-aged. That's why I've already written off PKJ's run as pointless. If's he's not going to fix the problem he's effectively part of the problem by perpetuating it.
    I mean that an age up was inevitable in the sense that if you accept the premise that Jon was created to be the next Superman, DC wasn’t going to wait fifty years to use him when they could just do it in five.

    Unlike with characters, say, Kenan or Steel, who could be airdropped into the narrative ready-to-go, Jon had to start out as a baby. That alone already led to some convoluted maneuvering around continuity and comics time. Then there were a number of ways DC/Bendis could’ve hit the plot-relevant age up button, whether by volcano, rainbow Kryptonite, or whatever. It was going to happen, it’s just that it was done under a controversial writer, but it’s what we have and now I’ve come around to hoping that someone else can use that to meaningfully deepen Jon’s character.

    And based on how Jurgens kept emphasizing in his interview how important Jon would be for tomorrow, Jon succeeding his father isn’t a generic hypothetical, but something that would eventually be realized. It’s fair if you don’t feel convinced about the age up. I consider it a quirk of continuity because you can’t do an in-universe time skip. I agree that kid Jon still had miles to go too, but I think the older version still has tons of exciting potential. PKJ said that DC has the next 18 months planned out, you might have to wait a while yet.
    Last edited by oneveryfineday; 04-21-2021 at 05:01 AM.

  5. #1505
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue22 View Post
    To be fair, he's said that he couldn't age Jon down even if he wanted to. It's all DC keeping him this way. So I can at least appreciate him trying to recapture part of what people loved about Tomasi's run.
    Doesn't earn him much sympathy from me. Even if I saw him swearing up and down that he would deage Jon if he could(which he hasn't) , he's still taken the job of selling this version of Jon. So he's still perpetuating the problem at the end of the day.

    Quote Originally Posted by oneveryfineday View Post
    I mean that an age up was inevitable in the sense that if you accept the premise that Jon was created to be the next Superman, DC wasn’t going to wait fifty years to use him when they could just do it in five.

    Unlike with characters, say, Kenan or Steel, who could be airdropped into the narrative ready-to-go, Jon had to start out as a baby. That alone already led to some convoluted maneuvering around continuity and comics time. Then there were a number of ways DC/Bendis could’ve hit the plot-relevant age up button, whether by volcano, rainbow Kryptonite, or whatever. It was going to happen, it’s just that it was done under a controversial writer, but it’s what we have and now I’ve come around to hoping that someone else can use that to meaningfully deepen Jon’s character.

    And based on how Jurgens kept emphasizing in his interview how important Jon would be for tomorrow, Jon succeeding his father isn’t a generic hypothetical, but something that would eventually be realized. It’s fair if you don’t feel convinced about the age up. I consider it a quirk of continuity because you can’t do an in-universe time skip. I agree that kid Jon still had miles to go too, but I think the older version still has tons of exciting potential. PKJ said that DC has the next 18 months planned out, you might have to wait a while yet.
    Once again, I don't agree that the age up was always in the characters future. And yes, I realize I'm in for a long haul with this fight. I don't care. I want the age up undone and I'm not compromising on this. There is nothing the can do to get me accept this version of Jon.

  6. #1506
    Extraordinary Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Well at least now you can go be an ass to Taylor on social media lmao.
    For when my rants on the forums just aren’t enough: https://thevindicativevordan.tumblr.com/

  7. #1507
    Astonishing Member Blue22's Avatar
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    Yeeeeeah at this point getting mad at any writer who still wants to write Jon is kinda futile. Not buying the books is fine. That's pretty much the point I'm at right now (and God, it pains me to not support a Taylor book). But don't waste your energy holding this against PKJ or Taylor or anyone else who writes him in the future. Just because they're not allowed to fix Jon doesn't mean nobody's gonna wanna write him anymore. It's all about making lemonade out of lemons right now. When life gives you lemons (or when DC mandates a bad idea and Bendis executes it in the worst possible way, as he's been known to do) sometimes you just gotta grit your teeth and make lemonade.
    Last edited by Blue22; 04-21-2021 at 07:24 AM.

  8. #1508
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue22 View Post
    Yeeeeeah at this point getting mad at any writer who still wants to write Jon is kinda futile. Not buying the books is fine. That's pretty much the point I'm at right now (and God, it pains me to not support a Taylor book). But don't waste your energy holding this against PKJ or Taylor or anyone else who writes him in the future. Just because they're not allowed to fix Jon doesn't mean nobody's gonna wanna write him anymore. It's all about making lemonade out of lemons right now. When life gives you lemons (or when DC mandates a bad idea and Bendis executes it in the worst possible way, as he's been known to do) sometimes you just gotta grit your teeth and make lemonade.
    You're calling it fixing Jon when aging him was the best thing which happened to the character. He trainwrecked Damian when he was a kid, and he was one of the least interesting super-kid I have read about, very bland and all that. At least as a teenager/young adult he'll be -hopefully- allowed to have some fangs, like in his FS books.

  9. #1509
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue22 View Post
    Yeeeeeah at this point getting mad at any writer who still wants to write Jon is kinda futile. Not buying the books is fine. That's pretty much the point I'm at right now (and God, it pains me to not support a Taylor book). But don't waste your energy holding this against PKJ or Taylor or anyone else who writes him in the future. Just because they're not allowed to fix Jon doesn't mean nobody's gonna wanna write him anymore. It's all about making lemonade out of lemons right now. When life gives you lemons (or when DC mandates a bad idea and Bendis executes it in the worst possible way, as he's been known to do) sometimes you just gotta grit your teeth and make lemonade.
    I'm sticking to my strategy of refusing to accept their lemonade for now and telling them get back what they had that I liked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    You're calling it fixing Jon when aging him was the best thing which happened to the character. He trainwrecked Damian when he was a kid, and he was one of the least interesting super-kid I have read about, very bland and all that. At least as a teenager/young adult he'll be -hopefully- allowed to have some fangs, like in his FS books.
    We do not share the same opinions at all.

  10. #1510
    Astonishing Member Blue22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    He trainwrecked Damian when he was a kid
    I'd say both Teen Titans runs did a better job at that. But it's okay because he's been fixed

    At least as a teenager/young adult he'll be -hopefully- allowed to have some fangs, like in his FS books.
    God, the absolute last thing I want is him growing up into the Jon we see in 2 out of the 3 FS books he was in. Justice League was fine but that's a big "fuck no!" on the other two.

  11. #1511
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue22 View Post
    I'd say both Teen Titans runs did a better job at that. But it's okay because he's been fixed


    God, the absolute last thing I want is him growing up into the Jon we see in 2 out of the 3 FS books he was in. Justice League was fine but that's a big "fuck no!" on the other two.

    You mean that becoming a pathetic bitchy boy with ridiculously over the top tamper tantrum is fixing Damian ? Granted, I've lost all interest in that character, DC ruined him forever by making him Robin again instead of owning it and making him chose his new name, so I don't know what Williamson will be doing in his series. And I have zero interest knowing anything about it, a character like that is just not at all what I care about.

    Also, how could you want Jon to be the same as his FS:SM/WW ? He was dumb, and a pure clone of Clark, while in Superman of Metropolis and Jl he was far closer to a "man of the people" as much as it is possible for a Super-character. It was far more interesting and endearing than the holier than thou attitude and ridiculous non-commitment to better things he showed in the SM/WW book.

  12. #1512
    Astonishing Member Blue22's Avatar
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    God I missed this. Don't ever make me go this long without a sparring partner again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    You mean that becoming a pathetic bitchy boy with ridiculously over the top tamper tantrum is fixing Damian ?
    That's funny. I don't recall saying that Titans was what fixed him lol

    Also, how could you want Jon to be the same as his FS:SM/WW ? He was dumb, and a pure clone of Clark,
    I said I'd be okay with him being the way he was in Justice League. Not SM/WW. That one was the worst take on him!

  13. #1513
    Extraordinary Member Vordan's Avatar
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    So should we create a new thread for the Johnson/Taylor era or stick with this one?
    For when my rants on the forums just aren’t enough: https://thevindicativevordan.tumblr.com/

  14. #1514
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue22 View Post

    I said I'd be okay with him being the way he was in Justice League. Not SM/WW. That one was the worst take on him!
    Oh, misread you then, I thought you were telling me he was good in two of the three series and one of them wasn't Superman of Metropolis. Which, considering that you don't want him to be a Jon Clark as far as I knew was a little surprising, I'm reassured.

    As for the sparring partner, not sure I'll post a lot in the future, feeling a little down on comics for the moment (even if Urban Legends and some announcements are making me a little happier so I may re-appear a little more). Sorry !

  15. #1515
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    So should we create a new thread for the Johnson/Taylor era or stick with this one?
    This one can still serve for Action Comics. Son of Kal-El already has it's own thread.
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