Page 12 of 15 FirstFirst ... 289101112131415 LastLast
Results 166 to 180 of 211
  1. #166
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    3,484

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by OopsIdiditagain View Post
    No, moving back to cliche is the main reason the sequels fell off. Making her a Palpatine went against her original character arc and overall theme of the sequel series. The whole point of the Last Jedi was to show that anyone can be a great Jedi, despite their heritage. It was supposed to show that the force wasn't biased towards certain families, it's a force of nature. Rey's "heroes journey" was coming to terms with the fact that her parents weren't great Jedi masters and she was just an orphan. Then Rise of the Skywalker went and contradicted all of this. I really don't understand why they felt the need to give Rey a connection to the Skywalker family drama, they already had Kylo for that. Rey being overpowered from the jump is ok because the force is a soft power system.
    Because The Last Jedi showed Kylo would take over the story if he was the only Skywalker left - The Last Jedi screwed over Rey and Finn by changing their stories, and promoted Kylo at their expense without actually making him any more than he already was.

    That while “Rey’s heroes’ journey was about learning her parents weren’t great Jedi masters” thing was some bullshit, and sure as shit wasn’t egalitarian. The Skywalkers were already that, Finn was already the egalitarian Everyman, and Reyks Hero’ Journey in the previous film was about finding her own family - in Finn.

    But screw that. We need to care about Kylo, no matter how shitty and inadequate he is as anything besides a contrasting antagonist.

    People disconnected from Rey after TFA because she went from having *something* people could relate to, as an abandoned child drawn towards another fellow sufferer in Finn and finding belonging with an OT3 character, to be a pimped out to Kylo Ren.

    Things got immeasurably worse when we were told to focus on Ben Solo. He sucks ass.
    Franchise Wars Podcast and YouTube Host.
    TITANS pilot Recap, Reaction, and Review video! https://youtu.be/l1tKBTUtiyM
    The Force Awakens vs The Last Jedi https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/...=2&i=408109126
    Teen Titans (03) vs Teen Titans Go! https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/...=2&i=400482734

  2. #167
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Posts
    4,108

    Default

    Overpowered wasn’t the main reason, but she should have physically suffered more.

    Losing limbs can stay a Skywalker father/son thing for Luke and Anakin.....but we should have seen more struggling from Rey.

    The closest we got was in TLJ, when Snoke was casually tossing her around.

  3. #168
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    3,484

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Evans View Post
    Overpowered wasn’t the main reason, but she should have physically suffered more.

    Losing limbs can stay a Skywalker father/son thing for Luke and Anakin.....but we should have seen more struggling from Rey.

    The closest we got was in TLJ, when Snoke was casually tossing her around.
    Eh, I think the violation by Kylo in TFA should qualify, and the way he twice ragdolled her without any effort as well...

    ...But LFL worked hard to try and erase that trauma and damage as much as possible, particularly in TLJ. Snoke throwing her around was pretty good in terms of showing her struggling, but the problem is it made no damn sense for her to be there, and more importantly that the entire film had pussyfooted away from either maintaining or elevating Kylo as her villian, and instead tried to pimp her out to him as a romantic interest even when it fucked up his role as a villain.

    Considering how many self-destructive decisions he had to make in TFA and how much damage others had to hit him with before she lucked into beating him, I’d say TLJ really should have had Kylo ragdoll her himself at some point if it wanted to be accurate to the previous film. And if they wanted her to be “tricked” into thinking Ben Solo was worth a damn, they could have actually written Kylo as clever and cunning to manipulate her.

    Instead, TLJ took what frankly *was* an uneven skill disparity between her and Kylo that favored him, a mountain’s worth of pain and trauma he inflicted on her that could be used to give her excellent temptation to fall to the darkside out of revenge towards him... and basically prostitute the entire film and her character to try and refocus everything on Kylo.

    Rey wasn’t really overpowered compared to Kylo until Johnson likely realized he was giving too much of the story to Kylo and wrongly sought to try and lower the skeeviness of the relationship by making Rey automatically Kylo’s equal in skill as a smokescreen for making her a Neo-Nazi School Shooter lover for no goddamn reason.

    People forget that Rey wasn’t “Kylo’s Trophy Girlfriend” in TFA, and thus forget that film being a hell of a lot more competent with her, Finn, and Kylo than TLJ and TROS were.
    Franchise Wars Podcast and YouTube Host.
    TITANS pilot Recap, Reaction, and Review video! https://youtu.be/l1tKBTUtiyM
    The Force Awakens vs The Last Jedi https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/...=2&i=408109126
    Teen Titans (03) vs Teen Titans Go! https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/...=2&i=400482734

  4. #169
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Posts
    4,108

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Eh, I think the violation by Kylo in TFA should qualify, and the way he twice ragdolled her without any effort as well...

    ...But LFL worked hard to try and erase that trauma and damage as much as possible, particularly in TLJ. Snoke throwing her around was pretty good in terms of showing her struggling, but the problem is it made no damn sense for her to be there, and more importantly that the entire film had pussyfooted away from either maintaining or elevating Kylo as her villian, and instead tried to pimp her out to him as a romantic interest even when it fucked up his role as a villain.

    Considering how many self-destructive decisions he had to make in TFA and how much damage others had to hit him with before she lucked into beating him, I’d say TLJ really should have had Kylo ragdoll her himself at some point if it wanted to be accurate to the previous film. And if they wanted her to be “tricked” into thinking Ben Solo was worth a damn, they could have actually written Kylo as clever and cunning to manipulate her.

    Instead, TLJ took what frankly *was* an uneven skill disparity between her and Kylo that favored him, a mountain’s worth of pain and trauma he inflicted on her that could be used to give her excellent temptation to fall to the darkside out of revenge towards him... and basically prostitute the entire film and her character to try and refocus everything on Kylo.

    Rey wasn’t really overpowered compared to Kylo until Johnson likely realized he was giving too much of the story to Kylo and wrongly sought to try and lower the skeeviness of the relationship by making Rey automatically Kylo’s equal in skill as a smokescreen for making her a Neo-Nazi School Shooter lover for no goddamn reason.

    People forget that Rey wasn’t “Kylo’s Trophy Girlfriend” in TFA, and thus forget that film being a hell of a lot more competent with her, Finn, and Kylo than TLJ and TROS were.
    Dude! Can’t we have one conversation about Rey or any other character without you mentioned Kylo once!


    Lol.

  5. #170

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Eh, I think the violation by Kylo in TFA should qualify, and the way he twice ragdolled her without any effort as well...
    For gods sake - she resisted his mind probe in TFA and she ragdolled him thrice - once in every movie. Rey received allmost no damage in TFA be it physical or psychological, so there was no "trauma" in TLJ.

    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Considering how many self-destructive decisions he had to make in TFA and how much damage others had to hit him with before she lucked into beating him,
    This again - a wound that heals within 24 hours should not have been enough for a Padawan level force user to defeat a high Jedi Knigh/low Jedi Master force user - thats not luck - that OPness or bad writing.

    I dont know why you think that Kylo got some special treatment anyway. He is weak/incompetent/ Rey could have killed him on the Supremacy and he was to stupid to realize that Uncle Luke was playing him on the Salt Planet. And Reylo seems pretty constructed half of the time - thats why it was so awkward in TLJ.
    Last edited by Celestialbeyonder; 03-02-2021 at 11:28 AM.

  6. #171
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    3,484

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Evans View Post
    Dude! Can’t we have one conversation about Rey or any other character without you mentioned Kylo once!


    Lol.
    Sure we can stop talking about Kylo whenever criticizing Rey comes up... when the reaction creators and Tumblr have to a shallow Neo-Nazi School Shooter killing a beloved hero is not to promote him to romantic male lead in a way guaranteed to crash the main character..

    That REALLY is my POV.
    Quote Originally Posted by Celestialbeyonder View Post
    I dont know why you think that Kylo got some special treatment anyway. He is weak/incompetent/ Rey could have killed him on the Supremacy and he was to stupid to realize that Uncle Luke was playing him on the Salt Planet. And Reylo seems pretty constructed half of the time - thats why it was so awkward in TLJ.
    Because, again.... the Neo-Nazi School Shooter who killed Han Solo got promoted to Rey’s love interest by TLJ and TROS had to honor that under LFL’s instructions.

    I’m not saying Rey ain’t written in an bad way.

    I’m saying she’s written in a bad way because of Kylo. As was Finn, Luke, Leia, and Han.

    OP characters ain’t nearly the problem that shitty-ass romances with laughably-shitty character focus are when the shitty-ass romance’s laughably Shiite main character becomes the creator’s main interest.

    People don’t mind All Star Superman when he can fix the sun with his bear hands... but if you made him Luthor’s abused boyfriend while arguing Luthor is just so damn sympathetic, you’d get a TLJ and TROS-style reaction.
    Last edited by godisawesome; 03-02-2021 at 03:10 PM.
    Franchise Wars Podcast and YouTube Host.
    TITANS pilot Recap, Reaction, and Review video! https://youtu.be/l1tKBTUtiyM
    The Force Awakens vs The Last Jedi https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/...=2&i=408109126
    Teen Titans (03) vs Teen Titans Go! https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/...=2&i=400482734

  7. #172
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Posts
    4,108

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Sure we can stop talking about Kylo whenever criticizing Rey comes up... when the reaction creators and Tumblr have to a shallow Neo-Nazi School Shooter killing a beloved hero is not to promote him to romantic male lead in a way guaranteed to crash the main character..

    That REALLY is my POV.

    Because, again.... the Neo-Nazi School Shooter who killed Han Solo got promoted to Rey’s love interest by TLJ and TROS had to honor that under LFL’s instructions.

    I’m not saying Rey ain’t written in an bad way.

    I’m saying she’s written in a bad way because of Kylo. As was Finn, Luke, Leia, and Han.

    OP characters ain’t nearly the problem that shitty-ass romances with laughably-shitty character focus are when the shitty-ass romance’s laughably Shiite main character becomes the creator’s main interest.

    People don’t mind All Star Superman when he can fix the sun with his bear hands... but if you made him Luthor’s abused boyfriend while arguing Luthor is just so damn sympathetic, you’d get a TLJ and TROS-style reaction.
    I’d say it’s more like arguing about Sinestro with the Green Lantern Corps, we were eventually shown as sympathetic

  8. #173
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    3,484

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Evans View Post
    I’d say it’s more like arguing about Sinestro with the Green Lantern Corps, we were eventually shown as sympathetic
    Sinestro at least had sympathetic aspects revealed before he was treated sympathetically... and he was treated as a villain by the good guys without any issue and without them losing their spines, brains, morality or anything else to get there. Kylo NEVER really gets any sympathetic story in TLJ, yet even though Rey has no reason to like him, she does.... because Rian Johnson sucked at writing her.

    The thing for me is that I *can* and to some extent *do* think Rey is a bit too powerful in TFA compared to previous neophyte Jedi... but far fewer people had a reason to dislike it because Kylo was a better villain for her both in terms of his own skill and power compared to her *and* in terms of how much the audience could get behind her cutting him up (arguably a more valuable trait that can work with both underdogs and overpowered heroes)...

    ...And because Rey hating Kylo helps make her likable and liking Kylo makes her unlikeable.

    That’s a heck of a lot more damaging to her function as a main character than her power level - it’s much more important to be able to relate to a character emotionally as a good person with real emotional storytelling than their power level is.

    It’s pretty simple - if a super powered person smites Neo-Nazis, they’re likeable. If they are infatuated with a Neo-Nazi seemingly because they’re a Neo-Nazi (like TLJ kind of set it up)... it’s hard to like them whether they’re overpowered or underpowered.
    Franchise Wars Podcast and YouTube Host.
    TITANS pilot Recap, Reaction, and Review video! https://youtu.be/l1tKBTUtiyM
    The Force Awakens vs The Last Jedi https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/...=2&i=408109126
    Teen Titans (03) vs Teen Titans Go! https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/...=2&i=400482734

  9. #174
    Extraordinary Member Jackalope89's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Posts
    7,544

    Default

    So it seems, ultimately, most people agree that Rey being powerful was not the main reason why the Sequel Trilogy sucked. Her being powerful and somehow knowing how to do advanced Force abilities without being taught them is an issue, but far from the only issue.

  10. #175
    My Face Is Up Here Powerboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    6,509

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    So it seems, ultimately, most people agree that Rey being powerful was not the main reason why the Sequel Trilogy sucked. Her being powerful and somehow knowing how to do advanced Force abilities without being taught them is an issue, but far from the only issue.
    If you think about it, wasn't Rey just like all the other Force Users in the sequel trilogy?

    Luke, while still alive, can appear in an astral form. Not only that but he can project that astral form across the galaxy.

    Leia can use the Force to fly- through outer space, no less. Too bad the Emperor couldn't do that. He could have just floated up out of that shaft.

    Yoda, though a force ghost, can now damage things in the physical universe to the point of summoning lightning.

    Random kids can now float objects with the Force.

    Kylo and Rey can teleport things.

    Snoke can read minds across the galaxy.

    What Rey does is just standard.

    There are problems. It's just a rehash of the original trilogy writ bigger and undermines the original trilogy since they really accomplished nothing that lasted.

    The Empire will now be called the Black Order.

    And so on.

    Oh, they did great at the box office and I'll eventually watch them again as action/ special effects movies. But there's a reason why so many people feel that the original trilogy is pretty much it. That's Star Wars.
    Power with Girl is better.

  11. #176
    Extraordinary Member Jackalope89's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Posts
    7,544

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    If you think about it, wasn't Rey just like all the other Force Users in the sequel trilogy?

    Luke, while still alive, can appear in an astral form. Not only that but he can project that astral form across the galaxy.

    Leia can use the Force to fly- through outer space, no less. Too bad the Emperor couldn't do that. He could have just floated up out of that shaft.

    Yoda, though a force ghost, can now damage things in the physical universe to the point of summoning lightning.

    Random kids can now float objects with the Force.

    Kylo and Rey can teleport things.

    Snoke can read minds across the galaxy.

    What Rey does is just standard.

    There are problems. It's just a rehash of the original trilogy writ bigger and undermines the original trilogy since they really accomplished nothing that lasted.

    The Empire will now be called the Black Order.

    And so on.

    Oh, they did great at the box office and I'll eventually watch them again as action/ special effects movies. But there's a reason why so many people feel that the original trilogy is pretty much it. That's Star Wars.
    Cue the meme of "That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works!"

    Like I said, it was but one of many issues the sequel trilogy had.

  12. #177
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    3,484

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    Cue the meme of "That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works!"

    Like I said, it was but one of many issues the sequel trilogy had.
    Her prodigy skill was a problem only because it meant they didn’t give her a story of growing into a Jedi - which honestly is less about powers and more about education and character. See: Luke in ESB, where the floating rocks is cool and all, but it’s his greater understanding and exposed flaws that make it worthwhile as a movie-watching experience.

    And to be blunt, they *still* should have had her get that education and character test in TLJ... but that's where the far uglier problem of mixed-up priorities and an apathy towards the new character reared its head. To Abrams credit in TFA, he was laser focused on making Rey and Finn engaging and fun characters and Kylo a hateable villain above all else. To Johnson’s discredit in TLJ, that was never his goal nor something he even focused on maintaining.
    Franchise Wars Podcast and YouTube Host.
    TITANS pilot Recap, Reaction, and Review video! https://youtu.be/l1tKBTUtiyM
    The Force Awakens vs The Last Jedi https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/...=2&i=408109126
    Teen Titans (03) vs Teen Titans Go! https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/...=2&i=400482734

  13. #178
    My Face Is Up Here Powerboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    6,509

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by OopsIdiditagain View Post
    No, moving back to cliche is the main reason the sequels fell off. Making her a Palpatine went against her original character arc and overall theme of the sequel series. The whole point of the Last Jedi was to show that anyone can be a great Jedi, despite their heritage. It was supposed to show that the force wasn't biased towards certain families, it's a force of nature. Rey's "heroes journey" was coming to terms with the fact that her parents weren't great Jedi masters and she was just an orphan. Then Rise of the Skywalker went and contradicted all of this. I really don't understand why they felt the need to give Rey a connection to the Skywalker family drama, they already had Kylo for that. Rey being overpowered from the jump is ok because the force is a soft power system.
    The problem is that TFA set up the idea that there was something special about Rey's heritage that would explain her abilities. Both the original trilogy and the sequels solidly establish that there is something genetic about one's power with the Force. Then TLJ contradicts numerous things set up in TFA. Then TROS pulls things back on track to what was established in TFA. It's like there were two directors, one directing the first and third and another directing the second, and they were contradicting each other with no regard for a cohesive story.

    Don't get me wrong. I always preferred to think that genetics had nothing to do with it, that it was more a spiritual awakening of sorts. But the heritage factor has been there since Luke found out Vader was his father and even before that from our knowing in the first movie, what we now call ANH, that Luke's father was strong in the Force.
    Power with Girl is better.

  14. #179
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    3,484

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    The problem is that TFA set up the idea that there was something special about Rey's heritage that would explain her abilities. Both the original trilogy and the sequels solidly establish that there is something genetic about one's power with the Force. Then TLJ contradicts numerous things set up in TFA. Then TROS pulls things back on track to what was established in TFA. It's like there were two directors, one directing the first and third and another directing the second, and they were contradicting each other with no regard for a cohesive story.

    Don't get me wrong. I always preferred to think that genetics had nothing to do with it, that it was more a spiritual awakening of sorts. But the heritage factor has been there since Luke found out Vader was his father and even before that from our knowing in the first movie, what we now call ANH, that Luke's father was strong in the Force.
    I would add that the Skywalkers emerging from slave and farmer stock already adds the “anyone could have it” element to their family, even including Anakin’s “virgin birth.”

    ...Plus, Rey as a Random got screwed because Kylo was still getting special treatment by the script because of who his parents were, at *both* Rey and Finn’s expense, and because it asked fans fot he family story the entire Saga had been centered on to either invest all their hope for the family in Kylo (barf!) or to wish for their destruction at the hands of a final, asshole-only member.

    Better to not have Kylo be a Solo if Rey was a Random than make the audience choose between hating the main heroic family or loving a Neo-Nazi.
    Franchise Wars Podcast and YouTube Host.
    TITANS pilot Recap, Reaction, and Review video! https://youtu.be/l1tKBTUtiyM
    The Force Awakens vs The Last Jedi https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/...=2&i=408109126
    Teen Titans (03) vs Teen Titans Go! https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/...=2&i=400482734

  15. #180
    Swollen Member GOLGO 13's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    1,792

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    ... Her being powerful and somehow knowing how to do advanced Force abilities without being taught them is an issue, but far from the only issue.
    Exactly!

    What were Rey's marvels of engineering? Her voyages of discovery? Her great insight into the nature of the universe? Other than surviving what WORK did she put in to become a Jedi? She simply picked up a light-sabre & just KNEW what to do?

    Mary-Sue 100%.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •