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  1. #106
    Mighty Member Godzilla2099's Avatar
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    Why the Sequels were bad?

    Two big reasons for me:

    1. Poor Storytelling

    - I'll just use the Force Awakens to make a point. No originality. I saw it to be a watered down version of ANH. Compare it to the relaunch of Star Trek. Star Trek had a scary villain. The entire theater was laughing at Kylo Ren when he yelled "Traitor!" With the tone of Star Trek, you really felt the despair. After wiping out fleets of star ships, destroying Vulcan, and capturing Pike (nobody knew if he was going to make it) you could feel the hopelessness around the heroes. How do you beat a villain like this? Star Wars was laughable. Their Starkiller destroyed 3 planets and there was about 15 minutes to destroy it with no plan but the heroes casually winged it. (When Rey was 'captured' everybody and their mother knew she'd get out herself) There was 0 thrill to it. Nobody cared. When Star Trek ended, everybody dashed to the bathroom because they didn't want to miss it. Star Wars was just another day at the movies

    2. New characters nobody cared about. Primarily Rey.

    - Rey finds out the force is real. Minutes later she's able to pilot the Falcon against experienced TIE Pilots, resist telepathy, use telepathy, telekinesis, and never picked up a light saber but manages to beat Darth Wannabe. This girl had the personality of white bread, and made zero mistakes on her journey.

    Personally, I thought the story should have focused on Finn. Have him point out the pros and cons to both the Empire and Rebellion. Use Rey sparingly. A mysterious girl found with immense powers but zero control or predictability. It would have been more fluid having these two characters find their role in life. Maybe they become friends. Maybe they become enemies. Finally, the OG Cast deserved light years better treatment.
    Last edited by Godzilla2099; 01-21-2021 at 08:46 PM.

  2. #107
    My Face Is Up Here Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godzilla2099 View Post
    Why the Sequels were bad?

    Two big reasons for me:

    1. Poor Storytelling

    - I'll just use the Force Awakens to make a point. No originality. I saw it to be a watered down version of ANH. Compare it to the relaunch of Star Trek. Star Trek had a scary villain. The entire theater was laughing at Kylo Ren when he yelled "Traitor!" With the tone of Star Trek, you really felt the despair. After wiping out fleets of star ships, destroying Vulcan, and capturing Pike (nobody knew if he was going to make it) you could feel the hopelessness around the heroes. How do you beat a villain like this? Star Wars was laughable. Their Starkiller destroyed 3 planets and there was about 15 minutes to destroy it with no plan but the heroes casually winged it. (When Rey was 'captured' everybody and their mother knew she'd get out herself) There was 0 thrill to it. Nobody cared. When Star Trek ended, everybody dashed to the bathroom because they didn't want to miss it. Star Wars was just another day at the movies

    2. New characters nobody cared about. Primarily Rey.

    - Rey finds out the force is real. Minutes later she's able to pilot the Falcon against experienced TIE Pilots, resist telepathy, use telepathy, telekinesis, and never picked up a light saber but manages to beat Darth Wannabe. This girl had the personality of white bread, and made zero mistakes on her journey.

    Personally, I thought the story should have focused on Finn. Have him point out the pros and cons to both the Empire and Rebellion. Use Rey sparingly. A mysterious girl found with immense powers but zero control or predictability. It would have been more fluid having these two characters find their role in life. Maybe they become friends. Maybe they become enemies. Finally, the OG Cast deserved light years better treatment.
    I don't really dislike Rey. She's just in there as part of the whole problem. If it were a Sherlock Holmes story, it would be called "The Case of the Dueling Directors".

    It felt as much or more like a remake of the original trilogy as a sequel.

    It just hit me that the final revelation about Rey's heritage simply parallels Luke's discovery of who his father was.

    Honestly, if you want to remake Star Wars, remake it. This time, it's a girl named Rey instead of Luke. It's a guy named Stoke instead of the Emperor. Darth Vader is now named Kylo Ren. The Empire is now called the Black Order. But do either a remake or a continuation, not both.

    Granted Star Trek could be called both but it deviates so much and has so much originality that it works as both.

    I actually liked 7, 8 and 9 on a purely action level. Way back in 1977, I had the idea of a storm trooper turning sides. This was before we knew they were clones. Finn was kind of a cool idea. But he was one of the few new ideas and he seemed to never get to his potential.

    There was a vague explanation thrown in for Rey and everybody else using the Force beyond anything people could do before, that it was exerting itself like it hadn't in ages. But that seems like an explanation late in the movies to explain all this stuff.

    I really liked the idea of Rey as a character but I wished they had done it better.
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  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    I don't really dislike Rey. She's just in there as part of the whole problem. If it were a Sherlock Holmes story, it would be called "The Case of the Dueling Directors".

    It felt as much or more like a remake of the original trilogy as a sequel.

    It just hit me that the final revelation about Rey's heritage simply parallels Luke's discovery of who his father was.

    Honestly, if you want to remake Star Wars, remake it. This time, it's a girl named Rey instead of Luke. It's a guy named Stoke instead of the Emperor. Darth Vader is now named Kylo Ren. The Empire is now called the Black Order. But do either a remake or a continuation, not both.

    Granted Star Trek could be called both but it deviates so much and has so much originality that it works as both.

    I actually liked 7, 8 and 9 on a purely action level. Way back in 1977, I had the idea of a storm trooper turning sides. This was before we knew they were clones. Finn was kind of a cool idea. But he was one of the few new ideas and he seemed to never get to his potential.

    There was a vague explanation thrown in for Rey and everybody else using the Force beyond anything people could do before, that it was exerting itself like it hadn't in ages. But that seems like an explanation late in the movies to explain all this stuff.

    I really liked the idea of Rey as a character but I wished they had done it better.
    The thing that really undermines it for me is that it feels like Abrams and Johnson couldn’t agree on what they were remaking (because Johnson was exactly as unoriginal as Abrams was, just more pretentious and shallow), and Rey was ground zero for that. And I feel like the whole “rhyming” idea means you easily could have done a half-remake/half-continuation... you’d just have to face the fact the core plot would be conventional and you’d have to focus on executing details and nuances differently instead.

    If she was always meant to be the Luke counterpart in an OT remake, than the way to do that is simple: she’s Luke’s daughter, get’s trained by Luke, Kylo’s her cousin, she’s form a powerful family to explain her strength, and she deals with the family legacy and a complicated relationship to her chief enemy.

    At the core, that’s a remake of the OT... but you throw in things like Rey grappling with anger at being “abandoned”/lost by Luke, having jealousy and bitterness towards Kylo for having the live she wanted before he cast it aside, and thus having far more reason to fall than Luke, and you can make a great continuation/remake.

    But if you really want to try remaking the PT and OT’s combined stories for Anakin/Vader using Kylo, like Johnson and the rest of LFL clearly did... then Rey’s a superfluous character unless you force her into a crappy pseudo-Padme role.

    TFA was the best film for her, even as “OP” as she seemed, because to be blunt, and energetic and “remixed” remake of Luke? That’s a fun idea for a character and story.

    TLJ was her worst film, because being a more shallow and more spineless Padme to a take on Anakin in Kylo that’s only a whiny bitch? That's just a shitty idea for a character and story.

    TROS was screwed because LFL still wanted Rey to remain a Weaker!Padme as a character around Kylo as in TLJ, which undermines the idea of making her act as Luke just as much as having lost an entire film did.

    In general, I think people who complain about her being “OP” either follow arguments others have made in bad faith, or are making them in bad faith themselves because if she were an actual Skywalker, I don’t see half the complaints about her still existing. And if it’s that rare but still sometimes present Kylo fan or defender who thinks she’s OP... well, they probably just didn’t want to watch any ST that didn’t focus on Kylo.
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  4. #109
    Extraordinary Member Derek Metaltron's Avatar
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    My personal reasons why I dislike the sequels (though I don't hate them and think there's some good stuff too):

    - Rey overshadowing everyone outside Kylo
    - Finn and Poe getting shafted as characters in 8 and to a lesser extent in 9
    - Reylo being allowed to happen (and yet only in a teasing way so as to tick everyone off)
    - Rose being used as a beard to Finn to stop him being with either Rey or Poe in 8 and then immediately dropping that off-screen so that Finn has nobody and destroying John and Marie's evident love for Star Wars by being scapegoats
    - Finn not being allowed to become force sensitive in the live action films (this should have been done in 7 and/or 8 rather than dangling it obscurely in 9)
    - Lack of clear direction in all three films but especially 8 and 9
    - Kennedy using sequels as agenda pushing places, especially 8
    - Not giving fans a Luke/Leia/Han/Lando reunion so as to not undermine the new guard (this could have been easily done and have both eras shine)
    - Wasting Phasma and Snoke

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Metaltron View Post
    My personal reasons why I dislike the sequels (though I don't hate them and think there's some good stuff too):

    - Rey overshadowing everyone outside Kylo
    - Finn and Poe getting shafted as characters in 8 and to a lesser extent in 9
    - Reylo being allowed to happen (and yet only in a teasing way so as to tick everyone off)
    - Rose being used as a beard to Finn to stop him being with either Rey or Poe in 8 and then immediately dropping that off-screen so that Finn has nobody and destroying John and Marie's evident love for Star Wars by being scapegoats
    - Finn not being allowed to become force sensitive in the live action films (this should have been done in 7 and/or 8 rather than dangling it obscurely in 9)
    - Lack of clear direction in all three films but especially 8 and 9
    - Kennedy using sequels as agenda pushing places, especially 8
    - Not giving fans a Luke/Leia/Han/Lando reunion so as to not undermine the new guard (this could have been easily done and have both eras shine)
    - Wasting Phasma and Snoke
    I’d agree with most of that because it’s what I see in TLJ...

    But while I’d say that the OT cast not getting a reunion is 100% Abrams fault ultimately, I don’t think it would have been nearly as much of a deal breaker if TLJ didn’t screw up so much, and that there’s two points I disagree with:

    1. Kennedy wasn’t really pushing any agendas in 8, in part because that’s entirely Johnson’s baby, bad because frankly it sucks so much at its’ intended messages it ends up largely communicating the opposite of them. Kennedy both wasn’t the one trying to, say, push some pseudo-egalitarian, pseudo-feminist, pseudo-inclusive message, because Johnson was the one doing that... while also making a film that was actually elitist, sexist, and racist - and all in the boring and frustrating manner that’s pathetic.

    2... I don’t think the problem was Rey overshadowing everyone outside of Kylo - in part because she got overshadowed by Luke and Kylo in TLJ, and in last because there’s nothing wrong with the main lead overshadowing the rest of the cast, because that’s kind of what they’re supposed to do.

    There was nothing wrong with Wonder Woman overshadowing everybody in her movie, Captain Marvel outshining everybody in her movie, or for a Star Wars example, Luke and Anakin doing that in their trilogies. That’s not to say those other films didn’t still have the other characters standing tall and being cool - the other trilogies were successful ensembles, after all, and Pine and Jackson definitely hold their own in the WW and CM - but that was also true for TFA, where Boyega does a very Pine-like job carrying a ton of dramatic weight while still supporting Ridley’s performance and where Ford was a success even if he didn’t get to hang out with Hamill again. And I’d also say it’s not a coincidence that film was also one where Kylo didn’t actually overshadow Rey either...

    ...Because I think TLJ is the one that permanently crippled the character and formula as long as LFL wasn’t ready to admit its mistake. TLJ has both Luke and Kylo overshadow Rey, as you can tell by how many of the scenes she shares with them become about them and not her... but it also ends up frankly prostituting Luke for Kylo just as it does prostituting Rey for Kylo. Even the scene where Rey attacks Luke? It’s ultimately about Kylo. And Kylo’s the reason Finn’s being demoted (well, the more “”sane” reason - since it’s pretty clear racism struck him down as well.)

    It also quite critically undermines Rey being powerful - because her power is a side note for her yielding to Kylo dramatically. You can tell that the formula is reversed because Rey is now acting as Kylo’s foil, rather than Kylo acting as Rey’s (and Finn’s foil.)

    If someone made a Superman story that was all about him crushing on Lex Luthor, but being a passive, stupidly gullible mark for him... people wouldn’t like Superman either. But that is basically what happened to Rey.
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  6. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    In general, I think people who complain about her being “OP” either follow arguments others have made in bad faith, or are making them in bad faith themselves because if she were an actual Skywalker, I don’t see half the complaints about her still existing. And if it’s that rare but still sometimes present Kylo fan or defender who thinks she’s OP... well, they probably just didn’t want to watch any ST that didn’t focus on Kylo.
    Thats just a bunch of BS. Beeing a Palpatine has in no way deflected any criticism from her Character/OP ness, so beeing a Skywalker would not have changed much either. And her OP ness is not so much a problem of her powerlevel - but because how effortlessly and quickly she achieved this level of power. The movies + EU established potential is meaningless without training. Even people like Darth Bane who without training could tap into the force for a few seconds here and there needed a lot of training to realise his full potential. So did Palpatine and pretty much everyone else in all of Star Wars history.

    - Rey finds out that the force is real and half a day later she can use the mind trick, force pull and beats a wounded force user who had 20+ years of experience
    - Some 3 or 4 days after that she defeats a buch of highly trained anti force guards, her force pull is equal to fully healed Kylo´s and she effortlessly lifts the greatest amount of weight in 9 SW movies.....

    And then there are people that complain about Luke and Anakin.... its just comical.
    Last edited by Celestialbeyonder; 01-24-2021 at 02:36 AM.

  7. #112
    Extraordinary Member Derek Metaltron's Avatar
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    Considering that the leaked JJA written original draft to Last Jedi implies that they were going to reveal that Luke had been assisting Rey through the force with her actions in Episode 7 it’s pretty clear that Rian tossed all that out to maintain Rey as OP and Luke being irrelevant.

  8. #113
    My Face Is Up Here Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celestialbeyonder View Post
    Thats just a bunch of BS. Beeing a Palpatine has in no way deflected any criticism from her Character/OP ness, so beeing a Skywalker would not have changed much either. And her OP ness is not so much a problem of her powerlevel - but because how effortlessly and quickly she achieved this level of power. The movies + EU established potential is meaningless without training. Even people like Darth Bane who without training could tap into the force for a few seconds here and there needed a lot of training to realise his full potential. So did Palpatine and pretty much everyone else in all of Star Wars history.

    - Rey finds out that the force is real and half a day later she can use the mind trick, force pull and beats a wounded force user who had 20+ years of experience
    - Some 3 or 4 days after that she defeats a buch of highly trained anti force guards, her force pull is equal to fully healed Kylo´s and she effortlessly lifts the greatest amount of weight in 9 SW movies.....

    And then there are people that complain about Luke and Anakin.... its just comical.
    I think Rey is in keeping with just about everything that is problematic about 7, 8 and 9. She can do things without any training and, in some cases, far beyond what has been done before.

    Leia can fly and through outer space at that.

    Luke can astrally project while still alive and at a galactic range.

    Yoda can now do damage in the physical world, destroying things with lightning.

    The Emperor can destroy ships with the Force (don't remember for sure as I've only seen it once).

    Rey and Kylo can teleport things between them.

    Children who have an affinity for the Force can move objects with zero training.

    This is all hand waved as the Force exerting itself like it hasn't in ages though I think that explanation was in TROS as a last minute explanation because of the complaints about the vast inconsistency with the previous trilogies.

    It's all part of the same problem.
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  9. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Metaltron View Post
    Considering that the leaked JJA written original draft to Last Jedi implies that they were going to reveal that Luke had been assisting Rey through the force with her actions in Episode 7 it’s pretty clear that Rian tossed all that out to maintain Rey as OP and Luke being irrelevant.
    I remember reading the passage of this suppose script where Luke asks Rey: "What you think you could have flown the Millenium Falcon and escaped two Tie fighters, performed the mind trick and beaten Kylo by yourself? Dont be silly Rey - it was me channeling my force powers to you so that you could suceed". And I though - well this would have been an ok explanation. Instead of "she had a simulator in an AT AT so she can fly" or "her force powers just magically appear and she has an advanced level of control over them - magically"..... yeah no.

  10. #115

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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    I think Rey is in keeping with just about everything that is problematic about 7, 8 and 9. She can do things without any training and, in some cases, far beyond what has been done before.

    This is all hand waved as the Force exerting itself like it hasn't in ages though I think that explanation was in TROS as a last minute explanation because of the complaints about the vast inconsistency with the previous trilogies. It's all part of the same problem.
    I am not against new force powers. But they have to be introduced right. Everyone liked Kylo stopping that blaster bolt and we have seen something similar when Vader stopped blaster bolts with his hands - so that is ok.We have seen force lightning before so Palpatine using it against the fleet - allthough at a factor of 100x more then we saw ever before would be believable if they had said he got a force boost from absorbing the force power of other force users.

    Even Rey lifting all those rocks would have been ok - If she had at least a few years of training before doing so and if we would have seen that it wasnt easy for her and that she needed everything she got to do so.Instead she stood there smiling like an Idiot and didnt break a sweat at all - with 0 training. Meanwhile Luke had to concentrate to levitate 3PO at the Ewok Village. Who had perhaps 1% of the mass of all the rocks Rey lifted. He also had 4 years to develop his force powers instead of 5 days.....

  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celestialbeyonder View Post
    I am not against new force powers. But they have to be introduced right. Everyone liked Kylo stopping that blaster bolt and we have seen something similar when Vader stopped blaster bolts with his hands - so that is ok.We have seen force lightning before so Palpatine using it against the fleet - allthough at a factor of 100x more then we saw ever before would be believable if they had said he got a force boost from absorbing the force power of other force users.

    Even Rey lifting all those rocks would have been ok - If she had at least a few years of training before doing so and if we would have seen that it wasnt easy for her and that she needed everything she got to do so.Instead she stood there smiling like an Idiot and didnt break a sweat at all - with 0 training. Meanwhile Luke had to concentrate to levitate 3PO at the Ewok Village. Who had perhaps 1% of the mass of all the rocks Rey lifted. He also had 4 years to develop his force powers instead of 5 days.....
    And to me, the main reason TLJ doesn’t actually give Rey training is because it decided she’s not a Skywalker’s, when TLJ itself is only interested in the Skywalkers, so therefore it’s not really interested in Rey.

    Not that it would have guaranteed Johnson would have had her train, mind you - let’s face it, he didn’t really give a damn about consistency with prior films at all - but at least there’d be a chance he would have been invested in her enough to throw in a few nominal struggles for her. Even her just trying to repeat the Mind Trick and needing the plot arc of the duel with Kylo to win helped TFA do better than TLJ.

    Fundamentally, it’s not Rey’s power level that was the issue - it’s the complete disinterest in explaining it by Johnson accompanied by a complete disinterest in giving her a real arc by Johnson, which as a follow up to Abrams doing a dumb mystery box, was the worst possible approach.

    At least in TFA, there was an interest in giving her a story that maintained dramatic tension in spite of her skills and abilities - she genuinely struggles and suffers in that film in spite of her skills, getting easily captured, violated, and ragdolled by Kylo and needing him to be mid-breakdown, already wounded, held off by Finn, and taking it easy on her to beat him, while still suffering the loss of Han and Finn to death and a coma.

    Don’t get me wrong - her “Force download” of the Mind Trick and Force Pull from Kylo is inconsistent with prior Force portrayals, and she needed an explanation on the next film. But if Johnson actually have a damn about her, he might have actually been tempted to give an explanation to her and give her a dramatic story instead of just pimping her out to Kylo and having her ask audience questions of Luke.

    And I don’t think he would have given a damn about her unless she was a Skywalker - TLJ’s a pretty elitist film by the time all is said and done.
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  12. #117
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    Luke had a year with Yoda ultimately and a couple of days with Obi-wan. He's otherwise learning what he can from people and is largely self-trained where in a similar time Rey had Jedi Master Luke for a few days to guide her and Leia within the TLJ and TROS gap.

    They're trained in similar time-frames except Rey actually had proper teachers relative to what Luke had.

    I fully expect someone in this thread to type a fuckin essay explaining how I'm wrong but there it is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperiorIronman View Post
    Luke had a year with Yoda ultimately and a couple of days with Obi-wan. He's otherwise learning what he can from people and is largely self-trained where in a similar time Rey had Jedi Master Luke for a few days to guide her and Leia within the TLJ and TROS gap.

    They're trained in similar time-frames except Rey actually had proper teachers relative to what Luke had.

    I fully expect someone in this thread to type a fuckin essay explaining how I'm wrong but there it is.
    Eh, actually, I’d agree about TROS, since Leia does her thing there.

    TFA and TLJ don’t actually train her, but TFA at least tries to coach stuff better, while TLJ is contemptuous trash more interested in pimping her to Kylo than having Luke train her.
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    Rey lifting the boulders never bothered me because of the 'size matters not' scene where Yoda explains that there's no difference between a small rock and a full-sized X-Wing and that Luke only failed to lift the ship because he didn't believe he could. The logic established by Empire Strikes Back makes it so that any Jedi should be able to move anything no matter what it's size as long as they believe they can. Yoda smashing large landing ships in the Clone Wars cartoon was consistent with that, and the objects we tend to see characters Jedi struggle to move are objects with momentum like large falling debris or ships that are moving at high speed like Ahsoka trying to keep Maul's escape craft from feeling in the last episode of Clone Wars. As far as force feats go, moving a bunch of stationary rocks is not all that impressive. I'm more concerned with her somehow knowing the Falcon better than Han, teaching herself the Jedi mind trick, and mastering the lightsaber the first time she ever holds one.

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    My big problems with the movies:
    - complete lack or originality and world building
    - complete disregard for basic Star Wars "Lore" (how stuff like Force and Hyper Space work)
    - weak plot and characters

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