Is Rey´s overpowered character the main reason why the sequels are bad?

[Starter Set]

Even after 3 movies i still have no idea what in Yoda's name is Kylo about.

Walking in Vader's shoes? They are in metal and it's completely dropped anyway after the first movie. Revenge on his aliens **** sucking uncle? A bit maybe, but everything he does in the last movie? I don't know lol.

Maybe he just has some sick obsession over captain "i never been on water but i can sail a boat during a storm, sure what else?".

[Triniking1234]

It’s special treatment because the only claim Kylo has to being a POV character comparable to Jacen is his family tie; he lacks every other trait that a POV protagonist needs.

For the record, I *do* get where you’re coming from, particularly as a Jacen Solo fan (YJK: Lightsabers was my favorite book in 4th grade, and NJO: Traitor is excellent), but I feel there were major differences in execution that kind of damage the comparison - caused in part, I think, because I seriously doubt that any of the writers and directors used Jacen as inspiration for Kylo/Ben.

Here’s the three biggest elements to me:

- Kylo, as established in TFA, couldn’t be a true POV protagonist like Jacen was, because Abrams’s goal with him was not to make him a male lead protagonist but an antagonistic supporting character.
- The biggest way Abrams (and Kasdan) installed a “ceiling” on Kylo was by making a massive statement with his murder of Han, and *why* he murdered Han, *when* he murdered Han, and *how* he murdered Han.
- As a problem shared by films past TFA, Kylo/Ben is never truly expanded beyond what he has - this is more of a functional problem than a conceptual one, but it’s what drags the rest of the ST down because the story is shaped to fit him instead of elevating him with the story.

Kylo becoming more important with Rey as her antagonist is something I fully expected, as was the supposition she would have a good reason to care about him that likely involved being family. But they never pulled the trigger on the possible family tie - which undercuts any comparison Rey can have to Jaina - while they also NEVER gave her a reason to care about him beyond the film declaring she should - often at her expense and to her detriment. And they even neglected the antagonist element - nothing about the way she treats him in TLJ conforms to how she, an unrelated stranger, would treat the man who violated her mind under torture, maimed her closest friend, and who murdered his own father/her other friend because it would make him more evil.

But to summarize: Kylo’s only claim to being a protagonist who needs Rey to focus on him more than Finn is because of his family tie. Now, I *do* think it was insane to not have the main character of the ST be a Skywalker... and I think TLJ itself especially shows that - it’s not *her* film, it’s more Kylo and Lukeks.

I think I understand your stance better now; it's just confusing since you called it "special treatment" which I probably took as the character was treated well when that didn't happen.

I'll have to agree that after the reveal that Kylo is Han and Leia's son the story starts to focus on him and it's evident as I mentioned from the other post that they didn't even bother giving Rey an origin story: she just one-ups Luke once and she gets one throw-away sentence about her parents.

[godisawesome]

I think I understand your stance better now; it's just confusing since you called it "special treatment" which I probably took as the character was treated well when that didn't happen.

I'll have to agree that after the reveal that Kylo is Han and Leia's son the story starts to focus on him and it's evident as I mentioned from the other post that they didn't even bother giving Rey an origin story: she just one-ups Luke once and she gets one throw-away sentence about her parents.

Yeah, when I speak about Kylo’s “special treatment,” especially in TLJ, I’m speaking about his meta-textual importance to the story - which is where I think TLJ is full of **** when ever someone tries to pretend it was offering a more “egalitarian view” of Star Wars.

Let’s face it; Johnson primarily chose to have Rey have nobodies for parents strictly because a more conventional and meaningful reveal (especially Skywalker) would have been predictable, and he was treating Star Wars in a somewhat juvenile manner regarding the characters and story arcs. Giving Rey a meaningful story was a distant second on his priorities to surprising the audience - arguably why so many characters seem pit of character and why so many “twists” are rather banal and dumb in TLJ.

But as Starter Set pointed out above your post, it’s not like they explained what Kylo was about either; his motivations were only ever vaguely referred to as brainwashing from Snoke/Palpatine with voices like Vader in his head.

And weirdly, very weirdly, it feels like Johnson was the one who totally rejected the idea of backstory having any meaning for anyone, in spite of how sophisticated his defenders try to argue the film is. Abrams, as uninterested in long-term payout as he was, at least had cohesive character actions and personalities in TFA and offered up *some* answers in TROS to try and explain some things. Johnson weirdly seemed to only address the archetypes he thought the characters were - and archetypes by their very nature are shallow approximations of characters unless you flesh them out.

[randomideaguy]

Yeah, when I speak about Kylo’s “special treatment,” especially in TLJ, I’m speaking about his meta-textual importance to the story - which is where I think TLJ is full of **** when ever someone tries to pretend it was offering a more “egalitarian view” of Star Wars.

Let’s face it; Johnson primarily chose to have Rey have nobodies for parents strictly because a more conventional and meaningful reveal (especially Skywalker) would have been predictable, and he was treating Star Wars in a somewhat juvenile manner regarding the characters and story arcs. Giving Rey a meaningful story was a distant second on his priorities to surprising the audience - arguably why so many characters seem pit of character and why so many “twists” are rather banal and dumb in TLJ.

But as Starter Set pointed out above your post, it’s not like they explained what Kylo was about either; his motivations were only ever vaguely referred to as brainwashing from Snoke/Palpatine with voices like Vader in his head.

And weirdly, very weirdly, it feels like Johnson was the one who totally rejected the idea of backstory having any meaning for anyone, in spite of how sophisticated his defenders try to argue the film is. Abrams, as uninterested in long-term payout as he was, at least had cohesive character actions and personalities in TFA and offered up *some* answers in TROS to try and explain some things. Johnson weirdly seemed to only address the archetypes he thought the characters were - and archetypes by their very nature are shallow approximations of characters unless you flesh them out.

I never really got this take on Johnson. As set up in TFA, we basically had the most boring, safe, "commercially viable" version of a sequel trilogy - basically remake the OT but with the serial numbers filed off. Never mind that this implicitly makes the events of the *actual OT* completely meaningless. That's all there by the end of TFA.

TLJ as I saw it was taking away Abrams' options for cribbing more of the OT. Training with the master? We did it in TLJ. Mook betrays the big bad? We did it in TLJ. Everything's basically perfectly set up for film number 3 in the trilogy to have something actually new and unique to say.

Of course, no one would expect that the desire to just retread the OT again would be powerful enough to rise Palpatine from the dead with absolutely no build up. Retreading not only ROTJ, but also TLJ (literally the last movie that came out).

And don't get me wrong, I *like* the OT. But I can just rewatch those. If they wanted to remake them with 2015 graphics they should've just done that and not wasted our time poorly developed Sequel characters (seriously Poe got the shortest stick of the three, he's barely more than an idea of a character).

[godisawesome]

I never really got this take on Johnson. As set up in TFA, we basically had the most boring, safe, "commercially viable" version of a sequel trilogy - basically remake the OT but with the serial numbers filed off. Never mind that this implicitly makes the events of the *actual OT* completely meaningless. That's all there by the end of TFA.

TLJ as I saw it was taking away Abrams' options for cribbing more of the OT. Training with the master? We did it in TLJ. Mook betrays the big bad? We did it in TLJ. Everything's basically perfectly set up for film number 3 in the trilogy to have something actually new and unique to say.

Of course, no one would expect that the desire to just retread the OT again would be powerful enough to rise Palpatine from the dead with absolutely no build up. Retreading not only ROTJ, but also TLJ (literally the last movie that came out).

And don't get me wrong, I *like* the OT. But I can just rewatch those. If they wanted to remake them with 2015 graphics they should've just done that and not wasted our time poorly developed Sequel characters (seriously Poe got the shortest stick of the three, he's barely more than an idea of a character).

Yeah, see, I think TLJ’s issue is it’s all abstract nonsense - it has good broad ideas, but no details, no finesse, and often seems kind of ignorant. And people afraid of “predictable” and “safe” follow-ups to TFA are kind of lying to themselves if they defend TLJ with that argument - because TFA was bolder than TLJ in many areas, and TLJ was safer in several as well... often to its detriment.

Like... Rey didn’t train with the master. Kylo did betray Snoke... but he didn’t become a greater villain and the ST doesn’t have a better conflict from it, when ideally that should be the case. Rey’s screwed by the story - because she has no story; there’s no egalitarian message truthfully being pushed with her, no real personal struggle, and frankly, no ones going to give a **** about a heroine with a one-film story arc like TLJ kind of forced her into with its take on her.

And, frankly... it’s some bullshit to say that TFA was entirely safe as a defense of TLJ.

- We basically dump our heroine, who already proved she didn’t *need* a Skywalker tie to work in TFA, in exchange for two white dudes in Luke and Kylo. Rey’s a blatant plot tool for their story in TLJ, and if anything TLJ seems to argue she needs to have a crush on Kylo to be relevant to the Skywalker Saga story, because make no mistake, TLJ is 100% obsessed with the Skywalker Saga, despite claims to the contrary.

- A nameless, faceless henchmen has become the male lead in TFA - that’s more dynamic than Luke throwing a pity party and farting his his way through learning another lesson from Yoda to death. Finn gets neglected by far too many people who pretend that TLJ was doing anything worthwhile with the character.

- If someone’s going to claim that TLJ “broke free” from OT parallels with Kylo, uh... people *do* remember the part where TFA put Kylo in a reverse of the ROTJ scenario, and had him come out as a damned bastard already, right? Why the hell is replaying ROTJ again, but this time with a lobotomized heroine in the Luke role, going to compete with murdering Han to be more evil? Here, TFA “scooped” TLJ.

- And let’s not pretend that TLJ was doing anything to fix TFA’s issues as a remake - it’s a *more* desperate cribbing of the OT for its own cause, but even worse. The FO went from an implied smaller force of lean and mean competent fanatics to a parody of the Empire, in a Galaxy that doesn’t give a damn about itself. And, uh, hello? The OT’s outcomes are still screwed by TLJ - more so, even, because now we know the family story has to end with Kylo, and Luke doesn’t get to have a legacy going forward of any value.

I think what people who latched onto TLJ are actually focusing on, arguably to a tunnel vision extent, is the way that pretty much everyone knew Rey “had” to be Luke’s daughter to fit into the 9 p-film Saga appropriately, and everyone could see that Snoke was a Palpatine expy. Everything else? Woth everything else, TLJ is more unoriginal... it’s just being a hipster about it.

And I get the complaints about Snoke especially - there, I actually think the “conventional” and “safe” sequel to TFA would *also* have had Kylo kill and replace him, since Kylo was established to be radically different from Vader. The complaints about Rey being a predictable Skywalker reveal are mostly horseshit, though - the same people arguing that was an issue are ignoring that being a Skywalker is the only reason they think Kylo’s story works.

TLJ as a mold-breaking, bold film is horseshit.

People credit it only because it zigged on Rey being a Skywalker and said “no,” and became exactly the kind of mildly sexist, mildly racist, Skywalker obsessed film that kind of naturally flows from that decision.

[randomideaguy]

Kylo’s story is semi complicated. I feel like taking TFA and TLJ together you get the idea that this guy is *not* going to be redeemed. He had his chances. Then TROS had to magic in Palpatine to let Kylo turn face. You could argue it’s rule of three (fail twice, third time’s the charm) but I don’t really buy that. I think he should’ve been the all out big bad of E9.

[ChrisIII]

The Kylo comics seemed to imply that Ben was partially bitter of the expectations people had of him, especially because of his name. I think it implied that "Kylo" is the name he wanted to be called instead of being named after a dead Jedi.

[randomideaguy]

Yeah, see, I think TLJ’s issue is it’s all abstract nonsense - it has good broad ideas, but no details, no finesse, and often seems kind of ignorant. And people afraid of “predictable” and “safe” follow-ups to TFA are kind of lying to themselves if they defend TLJ with that argument - because TFA was bolder than TLJ in many areas, and TLJ was safer in several as well... often to its detriment.

Like... Rey didn’t train with the master. Kylo did betray Snoke... but he didn’t become a greater villain and the ST doesn’t have a better conflict from it, when ideally that should be the case. Rey’s screwed by the story - because she has no story; there’s no egalitarian message truthfully being pushed with her, no real personal struggle, and frankly, no ones going to give a **** about a heroine with a one-film story arc like TLJ kind of forced her into with its take on her.

And, frankly... it’s some bullshit to say that TFA was entirely safe as a defense of TLJ.

- We basically dump our heroine, who already proved she didn’t *need* a Skywalker tie to work in TFA, in exchange for two white dudes in Luke and Kylo. Rey’s a blatant plot tool for their story in TLJ, and if anything TLJ seems to argue she needs to have a crush on Kylo to be relevant to the Skywalker Saga story, because make no mistake, TLJ is 100% obsessed with the Skywalker Saga, despite claims to the contrary.

- A nameless, faceless henchmen has become the male lead in TFA - that’s more dynamic than Luke throwing a pity party and farting his his way through learning another lesson from Yoda to death. Finn gets neglected by far too many people who pretend that TLJ was doing anything worthwhile with the character.

- If someone’s going to claim that TLJ “broke free” from OT parallels with Kylo, uh... people *do* remember the part where TFA put Kylo in a reverse of the ROTJ scenario, and had him come out as a damned bastard already, right? Why the hell is replaying ROTJ again, but this time with a lobotomized heroine in the Luke role, going to compete with murdering Han to be more evil? Here, TFA “scooped” TLJ.

- And let’s not pretend that TLJ was doing anything to fix TFA’s issues as a remake - it’s a *more* desperate cribbing of the OT for its own cause, but even worse. The FO went from an implied smaller force of lean and mean competent fanatics to a parody of the Empire, in a Galaxy that doesn’t give a damn about itself. And, uh, hello? The OT’s outcomes are still screwed by TLJ - more so, even, because now we know the family story has to end with Kylo, and Luke doesn’t get to have a legacy going forward of any value.

I think what people who latched onto TLJ are actually focusing on, arguably to a tunnel vision extent, is the way that pretty much everyone knew Rey “had” to be Luke’s daughter to fit into the 9 p-film Saga appropriately, and everyone could see that Snoke was a Palpatine expy. Everything else? Woth everything else, TLJ is more unoriginal... it’s just being a hipster about it.

And I get the complaints about Snoke especially - there, I actually think the “conventional” and “safe” sequel to TFA would *also* have had Kylo kill and replace him, since Kylo was established to be radically different from Vader. The complaints about Rey being a predictable Skywalker reveal are mostly horseshit, though - the same people arguing that was an issue are ignoring that being a Skywalker is the only reason they think Kylo’s story works.

TLJ as a mold-breaking, bold film is horseshit.

People credit it only because it zigged on Rey being a Skywalker and said “no,” and became exactly the kind of mildly sexist, mildly racist, Skywalker obsessed film that kind of naturally flows from that decision.

Alright, so most of this just comes across as complete lunacy to me and I do not expect we are ever going to reach a consensus here. I was stumped for the last day or so about Rey “being lobotomized” because I had never really heard the interpretation before. I still can’t make heads or tails of it so I was wondering if you could go into more detail? As far as I can tell, most of the plot is driven by her. To be fair that’s not the same as character development.

Her general character arc is going from absolute hatred of Kylo to something resembling pity. Now I’m not a huge fan of “sympathy for the devil” type stories, but it’s not like it’s anti-Star Wars (see Darth Vader, redeemed child murderer). Is it lobotomy just because her opinion changed so drastically in the course of a single movie?

[godisawesome]

Alright, so most of this just comes across as complete lunacy to me and I do not expect we are ever going to reach a consensus here. I was stumped for the last day or so about Rey “being lobotomized” because I had never really heard the interpretation before. I still can’t make heads or tails of it so I was wondering if you could go into more detail? As far as I can tell, most of the plot is driven by her. To be fair that’s not the same as character development.

Her general character arc is going from absolute hatred of Kylo to something resembling pity. Now I’m not a huge fan of “sympathy for the devil” type stories, but it’s not like it’s anti-Star Wars (see Darth Vader, redeemed child murderer). Is it lobotomy just because her opinion changed so drastically in the course of a single movie?

For me? Yes, as an example of hyperbolic criticism; it’s a combination of a severe lack of realistic response to Kylo’s crimes and loathsome qualities on her part on the hand, and a sever overextension of interest and investment on her part in his story on the other.

Conceptually, nothings wrong with the idea of Rey’s understanding of Kylo evolving to the point where she could see him being redeemed.

In terms fo execution though... Rey learns nothing good about Ben in TLJ.

She is also only a few dozen hours removed from him violating her mind under torture, murdering his father and her paternal figure so that he, Kylo, could become more evil, and maiming her best friend and found family member for defending her.

TLJ is by and large trying to apply the “Vader in ROTJ” logic to Kylo. The problem? Rey is nowhere near an acceptable counterpart to Luke for that scenario. Luke has already received and education on his father’s heroic deeds and positive impact from Obi-Wan and Yoda, also learned about the dangers of the dark side, and most importantly had a reason to want to save his father. Making matters worse for the comparison, Luke’s plan in ROTJ actually has a very sensible and ethical backup plan of “just get Vader off everyone else’s trail, and he and the Emperor die with me on the Death Star.”

Rey has no education about the Force, so she has no reason to not feel the pull to the darkside from wrath and fear towards Kylo; we’re still talking emotional trauma that’s less than a week old. She only receives information that paints Ben in the same bad light as before; whatever grace he’s supposed to get to her uninvolved eyes for being targeted by Like would be set off by how Luke and Kylo seem to agree Ben then murdered the other students. She also, to be blunt, has no reason to be invested in Ben Solo; he’s not related to her, he’s murdered the only person she knows who would put in a good word for him, and he never even really tries to show her his “good” side. But the film insists she’ll want to share intimate information with him and hold his (Finn-maiming, Han-murdering, unrepentant mass murderer) hand.

Like flat out, remove any head-canon interpretations you may have about Kylo from the greater insight the audience has of him that Rey doesn’t, and answer this question: if you came from a brutally deprived existence that required hard survival skills and natural wariness, then gained a set of close friends who could be the family you never had, only to have your mind brutally violated under torture and lose both those friends to the same person who violated you, then learned *nothing else* of substance about that person... would you want to hold their hand? Or... would you be far more likely to be horrified at them repeatedly contacting you, be far more inclined to discount anything they said, and pursue brutal revenge against them?

I seriously don't see a person reacting as TLJ has Rey react; I think TLJ fans are applying a “safe behind the 4th Wall” POV that simply views Kylo as “a Skywalker” to the exclusion of the rest of the story around him.

I mean, seriously: Rey in TLJ is going through a story that’s more obsessed-with-and-abused-by-Kylo than Harley Quinn has with the Joker, but has none of the reasons Harley does to be obsessed with the Joker - Kylo hasn’t strained himself trying to manipulate her, Kylo ain’t charismatic, and Kylo’s “opening salvo” in their relationship is strictly assault, battery, violation, and whining.

It's why *she’s* not driving the story at all; TLJ’s plot is accurately summarized as “Luke Skywalker takes 45 minutes to find his heart and brain again, while Snoke connects Rey to Kylo, knowing Kylo will automatically somehow earn her trust without doing anything, but Kylo uses her to make himself Supreme Leader, then banishes her to Space Uber with Chewie while Luke gets all the praise for a five minute smoke show.” Rey is it the one who gets Luke back into the game; that’s Yoda. Rey’s character arc isn’t central to the story; that’s Luke’s story. Rey isn’t the one who succeeds in her plan, because that’s Kylo, but Rey also isn’t the one who fails in her main plan, because she’s a tool Kylo uses to kill Snoke before banishing him.

She’s basically just treated as an “audience POV” for people who don’t need the story to flesh out Kylo to want him to succeed, and a convenient tool Johnson can use for Luke and Kylo’s story.

[randomideaguy]

So I do see a lot of this as hyperbole but I do agree setting TLJ *seconds* after TLJ is stupid. Plus the general set up for that chase had wayyy more potential. Send out escape pods in every direction - plot armor will keep our heroes alive. Plus there was allusions to a spy that I think was more interesting than a hyperspace tracker.

[godisawesome]

So I do see a lot of this as hyperbole but I do agree setting TLJ *seconds* after TLJ is stupid. Plus the general set up for that chase had wayyy more potential. Send out escape pods in every direction - plot armor will keep our heroes alive. Plus there was allusions to a spy that I think was more interesting than a hyperspace tracker.

The timescale is largely a product of how much more important Luke’s story is to the film than anything else, I think; Johnson’s plotline with Luke is predicated on the idea of Luke trying to stay out of it, but not too long, which requires a short lapse of time from Rey showing up to him getting back in the game and dying immiedtaely afterwards. And I *do* think it shows a higher prioritization of Luke over the good of the ST; everything else, from the new kids’ stories to the overall military one, is out at the disadvantage of a short time-scale because Johnson’s goal with Luke is one of a personal epilogue rather than a contribution to a larger three-film story.

But seriously, I don’t think that’s as much fo an issue as how the story handles the new characters, but especially Rey and Kylo. You do get why I don't think there’s anything believable about their interactions in TLJ right? That I *genuinely*, not hyperbolically, don’t think there’s any traits of Kylo that make Rey pitying him or thinking he can help her believable?

Don’t get me wrong; I don’t think it would take much serious writing to “fix” TLJ here; all it needed was a believable reason for them to team up, and to keep in mind Rey’s characterization. If, say, Rey discovered only that Kylo wanted to kill Snoke, and he offered her an alliance with an ostensible vow of not turning in her, that would answer the first... and if Rey, as a pragmatic survivalist, then betrayed their alliance first after Snoke was dead and lost to Kylo but escaped, that would be in-character for her. Or if she found out he was her cousin/brother, and was brainwashed, and believed that Finn could break it so could Ben, only to then despise him for his weakness/malevolence when he doesn’t.

But the way TLJ does it... no, I don’t believe Rey has any real reason to like Kylo or have faith in Ben. And by and large, it’s hard to like someone who crushes on a mass-murdering abusive boyfriend who doesn’t even have any “seductive” qualities.

And that screwed up the main personal conflict of the ST beyond repair.

[randomideaguy]

Yeah, you really do need to shift the OT characters out of the spotlight. This can either be moving the story 100 years after ROTJ or just treating them like the OT treated PT characters - largely disposable support characters. I think both would upset OT fans but would be better for the ST as a piece of a fiction. Maybe you could do a spin off, single movie between OT / ST with “one last adventure” from the OT trio to placate “day one” fans.

[godisawesome]

Yeah, you really do need to shift the OT characters out of the spotlight. This can either be moving the story 100 years after ROTJ or just treating them like the OT treated PT characters - largely disposable support characters. I think both would upset OT fans but would be better for the ST as a piece of a fiction. Maybe you could do a spin off, single movie between OT / ST with “one last adventure” from the OT trio to placate “day one” fans.

TFA, I think had a functional take on how to deal with Han - he fills the Obi-Wan role in an enjoyably ironic manner, gives “the rub” to both Rey and Finn, and his death fuels the audience wanting Kylo to lose in TFA.

I actually think that’s part of the reason why people aren’t *as* against Rey in TFA, even though she’s still getting “the push” there and is extremely competent. It’s just easier to like a new character if an older character likes them and they have real chemistry with them - and it’s easier to cheer for them when they’re trying to avenge an older character as well.

Don’t get me wrong, I know that there are still people upset at Han not getting a scene with Luke, and there are people greatly irritated by stuff like Rey knowing how to fix the Falcon faster than Han... but it’s not a coincidence people were more on board with Rey when she was one of Han’s friends angered at his death than they were when she was just some girl Luke didn’t have time for and who no longer cared about Han being killed by Kylo.

[randomideaguy]

TFA, I think had a functional take on how to deal with Han - he fills the Obi-Wan role in an enjoyably ironic manner, gives “the rub” to both Rey and Finn, and his death fuels the audience wanting Kylo to lose in TFA.

I actually think that’s part of the reason why people aren’t *as* against Rey in TFA, even though she’s still getting “the push” there and is extremely competent. It’s just easier to like a new character if an older character likes them and they have real chemistry with them - and it’s easier to cheer for them when they’re trying to avenge an older character as well.

Don’t get me wrong, I know that there are still people upset at Han not getting a scene with Luke, and there are people greatly irritated by stuff like Rey knowing how to fix the Falcon faster than Han... but it’s not a coincidence people were more on board with Rey when she was one of Han’s friends angered at his death than they were when she was just some girl Luke didn’t have time for and who no longer cared about Han being killed by Kylo.

Nah I don’t really agree. Look at the thread title. Rey’s been an “OP Mary Sue” since her introduction in 2015. I don’t agree with this, but the criticism has existed since day one.

The time gap is kind of a knock on effect of movie #1 going as far as to *kill Han Solo* without so much as a force phone call for Luke Skywalker. When you factor in the destruction of the Star system as well as general first order shenanigans, the Luke Skywalker question is begging to be asked by the end of the first movie.

If Harrison really didn’t want to cooperate for a trilogy then you could have him feel something weird is up and send a hologram to talk to Kylo. Then when Kylo kills (what he thinks) is Han that could send Han into a blue screen of death type situation where he’s just shocked into inaction / retirement for the rest of the trilogy.

[godisawesome]

Nah I don’t really agree. Look at the thread title. Rey’s been an “OP Mary Sue” since her introduction in 2015. I don’t agree with this, but the criticism has existed since day one.

The time gap is kind of a knock on effect of movie #1 going as far as to *kill Han Solo* without so much as a force phone call for Luke Skywalker. When you factor in the destruction of the Star system as well as general first order shenanigans, the Luke Skywalker question is begging to be asked by the end of the first movie.

If Harrison really didn’t want to cooperate for a trilogy then you could have him feel something weird is up and send a hologram to talk to Kylo. Then when Kylo kills (what he thinks) is Han that could send Han into a blue screen of death type situation where he’s just shocked into inaction / retirement for the rest of the trilogy.

I”m gonna be honest and say that I think the “overpowered”/Mary Sue complaints around TFA were an extreme minority, akin to the size of people whining about Finn being a black stormtrooper; utterly inconsequential and lacking any impact on the film and character’s success. Something similar, sadly or not, is attached to my opinion of Han’s reception - particualrly that one, actually, since the reception between Han’s story and Luke’s in TLJ is like night and day in terms of how much buzz there was about it, and how defensive LFL got about it, even though both were excellent performances by the actors.

There is, to be blunt, a lot more quantifiable bits of evidence about Rey, Finn, and Kylo being overall more popular around TFA’s release, and Han’s treatment being tolerated/accepted/enjoyed in that film as well, compared to TLJ losing the lion’s share of the drop the ST experienced at the box office and with goodwill among fans.

*Some* of that I would allow could be chalked up to a cynical nostalgia play by TFA compared to TLJ - especially Han, since there’s really no way to argue that Han as a smuggler hero again isn’t both more familiar and more in-line with expectations than Sad Hobo Luke. On that topic, I really do feel there’s an argument to make about the merits of Luke vs Han, even though I’d inevitably land on the Han side (I can see Han’s portrayal as in-character and serious, while I view Luke’s story as more out-of-character and a little bit too pretentious to work.)

BUT!... I don’t respect arguments that Rey was already weak or unpopular after TFA so TLJ won’t be blamed for her popularity taking a dive afterwards. There were definitely some “OT purists” and sexist assholes who disliked her, but she was a hit - you had the “Where’s Rey?” movement on social media (and the “Where’s Finn?” movement as well), and Ridley and Boyega won plenty of awards and both would later acknowledge the reception was a lot warmer with TFA than TLJ.

“Overpowered” wasn’t really a problem for Wonder Woman in her movie. It wasn’t really a problem for Superman in “All Star Superman.” “Too competent” wasn’t a problem for Katniss Everdeen, who remains one of the few “Young Adult Romance” characters to still get respect outside of the demographic she’d tailored for.

But people *do* have problems with crappies written love interest characters, like Bella Swan. And Rey in TLJ is much closer to Bella Swan than Katniss, Wonder Woman, or Superman - and I’d argue she’s further south than Bella.

People don’t mind power fantasies that are written well, and Rey in TFA was written better than Rey in TLJ. There was a not in significant number fo TFA fans who turned on the ST after TLJ; that $700 Million drop at the box office, far weaker legs and far weaker merchandise sales wasn’t coming from the OT purists or the sexist and racist morons. It was coming from fans of Luke, Rey and Finn who all decided TLJ was handling those characters badly.