Is Rey´s overpowered character the main reason why the sequels are bad?

[godisawesome]

Exactly!

What were Rey's marvels of engineering? Her voyages of discovery? Her great insight into the nature of the universe? Other than surviving what WORK did she put in to become a Jedi? She simply picked up a light-sabre & just KNEW what to do?

Mary-Sue 100%.

See, I think if she were pure Mary Sue in TFA, she wouldn’t have had any fans after that film, nor would the film have had the legs to carry it through to such success at the box office *and* with the supposedly stingy fan-base. But since the film *and* the character were a hit far more often than not, and since TFA went out of its way to give her multiple extenuating circumstances for beating Kylo *with help*... I don’t think she can be qualified that way in TFA.

On the other-hand, I think if she were a true Mary Sue in TLJ, she wouldn’t have seen so many of her TFA fans get disgusted and turn on the Trilogy - because far more than “Mary Sue”, “Manic Pixie Dream Girl” fits her when she interacts with Kylo.

Rey’s actually a pretty sucky “power-fantasy” character in TLJ - at least if you want to have your power fantasy go through her. If you’re a fan of Adam Driver’s wobbly lip and haircut, though? And if you don’t mind Kylo not getting a clear cut victory over her in exchange for using her to make himself Superme Leader with what amounts to a complete lack of effort on his part? Then yeah, it’s a power-fantasy - for Kylo.

That needs to be reckoned with - the film where Rey was clearly the central character and Kylo wasn’t offered any special treatment by her or the other non-related characters was a success... and *did* see her struggle to pull out the unlikely dark horse victory as presented by the script and acting.

But the film that, to many people, solidified her as a “Mary Sue” actually *isn’t* interested in her, and in fact acts just as much as a power fantasy for Kylo as it does for her - albeit in a lazy, entitled way where he can fail upwards because everyone is supposed to sympathetic and identify with him.

TROS, yes, is another kettle of fish, but has to balance the blatant Kylo-favoritism of TLJ it’s the goal of trying to make Rey the main character again. Trying to make the actual protagonist match the Creator’s Pet from the last film is just a bad place to start.

Seriously: Rey’s problems had far less to do with LFL trying to push an agenda with her or trying to make her a star, and far more to do with LFL (and Rian Johnson in particular) expecting, treating, and trying to push Kylo as the star of the ST, which led to Rey being broken in a story that would not allow her to act naturally and used her as a handy Deus Ex Machina instead of as a protagonist.

And unfortunately, a bunch of the assholes who whined and moaned about a woman and black guy being the main star *before* TFA was even released stuck around, and shaped some criticism after the ST was over to still put more blame on Rey or Finn for its more lackluster elements, rather than on the jarring and obvious way things changed around Kylo.

[Tendrin]

Cue the meme of "That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works!"

Like I said, it was but one of many issues the sequel trilogy had.

I maintain that the logic behind Rey and the Broom Boy was not any high-brow 'anyone can be a force user!' nonsense. It was purely about Disney wanting to have a lot of force users whose presence they never had to explain nor do any world building for down the line. 'Anyone can be a force user and anyone can use the force' removes a barrier to spectacle that Disney was plainly uninterested in dealing with. In fact, a lot of the sequel trilogy plans, when viewed from the angle of 'what does Disney want to do with these properties as cash cows', make a little more sense.

[ChrisIII]

I always thought part of the point of the final TLJ scene was that Luke's stand would inspire the galaxy-it's kind of a recurring theme in TLJ, that this is "just the beginning" of the galaxy beginning to stand up against the First Order.

It seems like something that would be a bit more organic in Tremorrow's version, but all we really got in TROS was the last minute galaxy fleet, which seems they were more inspired by Lando than by anything Luke did.

[godisawesome]

I maintain that the logic behind Rey and the Broom Boy was not any high-brow 'anyone can be a force user!' nonsense. It was purely about Disney wanting to have a lot of force users whose presence they never had to explain nor do any world building for down the line. 'Anyone can be a force user and anyone can use the force' removes a barrier to spectacle that Disney was plainly uninterested in dealing with. In fact, a lot of the sequel trilogy plans, when viewed from the angle of 'what does Disney want to do with these properties as cash cows', make a little more sense.

If they did have a distaste for “barriers to spectacle” involving the Jedi, than they missed quite a few obvious ones: Luke having successfully trained some Jedi students, giving Finn the Force and using a lightsaber again, etc.

I still think it’s was more likely to be as simple as Johnson knowing that he was boxed in where the *best* answers for Rey’s parentage were predictable, and overvaluing surprise over substance. I don’t even really think he thought of any “egalitarian retcon” of the Force against the Skywalkers - dude had no time for Finn and barely any time for Rey, even shooing her off stage so it would just be Kylo and Luke.

I always thought part of the point of the final TLJ scene was that Luke's stand would inspire the galaxy-it's kind of a recurring theme in TLJ, that this is "just the beginning" of the galaxy beginning to stand up against the First Order.

It seems like something that would be a bit more organic in Tremorrow's version, but all we really got in TROS was the last minute galaxy fleet, which seems they were more inspired by Lando than by anything Luke did.

I think it *was* supposed to be inspiration, and that TROS would have honored TLJ’s intern there better with a larger Resistance already present...

...But TLJ had already trashed the events of TFA and the efficacy of the First Order as villains, so I don’t begrudge it that much.

TFA gave Johnson functional and competent villains, at least in a utilitarian sense, alongside a film where Han, Finn, Poe, and Rey managed to avenge the deaths of billions of people who were murdered by Starkiller Base... and Johnson’s response was to make the First Order a group of slapstick idiots with a leader who failed upward into power, and to argue the Galaxy was unmoved by the Hosnian System or SKB’s destruction, or the more substantial story that would make about Han, Finn, Poe, and Rey saving the day... but Luke Skywalker not even getting off his ass to do a five minute smokeshow to save a dozen people would get the Galaxy involved.

There were better ways to do TROS. But there were better ways to do TLJ even more so, and of the two... TLJ did more damage to the gameboard and toy sets than TROS did simply because it left so few good things for the new characters or the Skywalker family behind itself. It actively damaged Rey and Finn, put too much importance in Kylo after damaging his functionality as a villain, and wasted Luke in a pretentious fart of a story it demanded people get high on.

[Tendrin]

If they did have a distaste for “barriers to spectacle” involving the Jedi, than they missed quite a few obvious ones: Luke having successfully trained some Jedi students, giving Finn the Force and using a lightsaber again, etc.

Yes, but then they have to answer the question every time where those characters come from. Better to be able to have people intuit the force with no explanation and no real need for training. Rey wasn't meant to be unique, she was meant to be the future of the Force, and there were meant to be more like her. 'The Force is awake', after all, and being more 'active'. This isn't just about TLJ. The goal was a larger expectation and freedom for the franchise in the future that never even had to reference the OT characters while hiding behind a message of 'anyone can be a force user!'. They wanted out from under all that as quickly as possible, seeing the world building as anathema to franchise monetization and flexibility.

I still think it’s was more likely to be as simple as Johnson knowing that he was boxed in where the *best* answers for Rey’s parentage were predictable, and overvaluing surprise over substance. I don’t even really think he thought of any “egalitarian retcon” of the Force against the Skywalkers - dude had no time for Finn and barely any time for Rey, even shooing her off stage so it would just be Kylo and Luke.

I actually liked that Rey's parents were 'nobody's, but I think your larger commentary about TLJ's failings are spot on. I liked some of Rian's intended messaging but on the whole TLJ was a disaster for the trilogy and the franchise as a whole.

[godisawesome]

Yes, but then they have to answer the question every time where those characters come from. Better to be able to have people intuit the force with no explanation and no real need for training. Rey wasn't meant to be unique, she was meant to be the future of the Force, and there were meant to be more like her. 'The Force is awake', after all, and being more 'active'. This isn't just about TLJ. The goal was a larger expectation and freedom for the franchise in the future that never even had to reference the OT characters while hiding behind a message of 'anyone can be a force user!'. They wanted out from under all that as quickly as possible, seeing the world building as anathema to franchise monetization and flexibility.

I get what you’re saying... I just don’t think that either Disney or LFL would think that somehow training was “bad” because it slowed things down or required world-building. The PT’s world building was never its problem in deploying hundreds of Jedi across screens and pages, and I think both Disney and LFL had good reason to want more expansive lore around the franchise from having seen the profitability it created during the PT and made during the MCU.

TLJ also remains a lone standout among not just the ST but most Star Wars Disney media at the time. Rebels had Ezra being trained, for instance, and both of Abrams’s films seemed to embrace the idea that Rey and Kylo needed and would receive more training. The Mandalorian comes later, but still makes a point of Grogu’s training.

Now, I can also get the idea they wanted “mutant” style Force users later in the timeline... but I honestly don’t think they ever planned that far ahead on anything.

Johnson himself has repeatedly presented TLJ as being almost 100% his baby, from start to finish. I think the reason he skipped over training Rey *and* Kylo (for whom he actually had to include specific dialogue to answer Abrams’s explicit intentions from TFA)... is because he himself just. Didn’t. Care.

I mean, hell, the guy couldn’t be bothered to write Rey in even a believable way around the Neo-Nazi School Shooter, or to have her “get the rub” even in a simple friendly relationship with Luke, and had her shooed off center stage after Kylo revealed she was “no one.” And with Kylo, he couldn’t be bothered to remember the character was an insane fanatic vacant of any sympathetic qualities, and decided that the exact same package as is should be a romantic male lead who could fail upwards into power.

Why would anyone think Johnson put any serious thought into the storytelling for Rey outside fo how she could serve an indulgent, self-congratulatory meta-story?

Rey doesn’t get any training, and neither does Kylo, because Rian Johnson alone didn’t care.

[Indian Ink]

My problem with the sequels was the way the original characters were treated. You give Han, Luke, and Leia a happy ending, and you can make the main character a transgender black lesbian who is the most powerful Jedi of all time for all I care. But you can't attach a good story to what happened to the original characters. This is why I don't like the sequels. What happened to the three main characters from the original trilogy. Someone at Disney should have seen what Abrams was proposing and red flagged it. This is why all the political talk about "Mary Sues" or whatever is irrelevant to me. Everyone is overlooking the real problem which is that the original characters got thrown under the bus.

This. And If you can't do this; then don't even have the original characters/actors be there. Let them be referenced as almost mythical heroes hundreds years of years in the past. Those past heroes made a second golden age, which our current crop of freedom fighters look back to in inspiration in their duty to fight against the new dark times and rebirth the light of another golden civilization.

[Indian Ink]

Of course Mary-Sues never help, but they are the flag to the real problem. Very bad writing and story telling.

[godisawesome]

Of course Mary-Sues never help, but they are the flag to the real problem. Very bad writing and story telling.

That’s more like it. I just think that if we’re looking to make some character the “singularity” the story becomes too focused on to its detriment, that’s ultimately Kylo, not Rey, if for no other reason than if *any* character “should” get punched more than others, and have the story tailor itself to them, it’s the main character. But from TLJ on, much more of the story is formed to suit Kylo. Heck, Luke and Leia get spent more for Kylo’s sake in the final tally than for Rey’s, and Palpatine only returned so Ben could have an enemy to unite with Rey against.

[ChrisIII]

My problem with the sequels was the way the original characters were treated. You give Han, Luke, and Leia a happy ending, and you can make the main character a transgender black lesbian who is the most powerful Jedi of all time for all I care. But you can't attach a good story to what happened to the original characters. This is why I don't like the sequels. What happened to the three main characters from the original trilogy. Someone at Disney should have seen what Abrams was proposing and red flagged it. This is why all the political talk about "Mary Sues" or whatever is irrelevant to me. Everyone is overlooking the real problem which is that the original characters got thrown under the bus.

They did toy with a 'bad ending' for ROTJ for a bit while brainstorming it; some of the ideas don't seem too far off from where the characters stood in the original trilogy.


Han dying was probably a condition of Ford reprising the character I think. He wanted Han to die since at least ROTJ.

There's also Yoda's line in ESB that Luke going to Bespin would "help them you could, but you will destroy all for which they have fought and suffered"-which didn't quite happen in the OT but did sort of happen in the ST. Maybe Yoda was thinking long term.

[randomideaguy]

By the first movie she is equal or superior to a Padawan, by the second movie she is a Jedi Knight by the third a Jedi Master. All of this with 0 or almost 0 training. She displays feats and abilities so far above the first two trilogies that it is mind boggling.

*nerd hat* actually this is literally Luke's journey in the OT. In ROTJ he refers to himself as a "Jedi Master" and Han says something to the effect of Luke having "delusions of grandeur".

Counterpoint, the mind trick is a Master level trick IMO since we otherwise only see Qui-Gon & Obi-Wan do it (off the top of my head).

*nerd hat off*

Ultimately I think the problem was lack of planning. There was not overarching story between all three. Hence the immortal line "somehow, Palpatine has returned". Stupidness.

Definitely not the female protagonist's fault.

My problem with the sequels was the way the original characters were treated. You give Han, Luke, and Leia a happy ending, and you can make the main character a transgender black lesbian who is the most powerful Jedi of all time for all I care. But you can't attach a good story to what happened to the original characters. This is why I don't like the sequels. What happened to the three main characters from the original trilogy. Someone at Disney should have seen what Abrams was proposing and red flagged it. This is why all the political talk about "Mary Sues" or whatever is irrelevant to me. Everyone is overlooking the real problem which is that the original characters got thrown under the bus.

In some respects I agree in the sense that the OT characters were going to be a problem. The prequels didn't have to worry about "disrespecting" fans of Luke, Han, & Leia because they didn't exist in that era. The ST had to decide if it was going to be a sequel about new characters in a new era of Star Wars or if it was just going to be another 3 movies centered around Han, Luke, & Leia. In that respect I agree you could literally set it 100 years later for all it matters.

[Triniking1234]

I would add that the Skywalkers emerging from slave and farmer stock already adds the “anyone could have it” element to their family, even including Anakin’s “virgin birth.”

...Plus, Rey as a Random got screwed because Kylo was still getting special treatment by the script because of who his parents were, at *both* Rey and Finn’s expense, and because it asked fans fot he family story the entire Saga had been centered on to either invest all their hope for the family in Kylo (barf!) or to wish for their destruction at the hands of a final, *******-only member.

Better to not have Kylo be a Solo if Rey was a Random than make the audience choose between hating the main heroic family or loving a Neo-Nazi.

I'm not sure where you think Kylo got special treatment. He was on the dark side to make the bigger villain look more bad-ass because he converted one of the heroes to evil which was a story they stole from the extended universe they threw out.

Rian Johnson went and ruin that plus two characters. They honestly should've plotted out all three movies before grifting for cash.

[godisawesome]

I'm not sure where you think Kylo got special treatment. He was on the dark side to make the bigger villain look more bad-ass because he converted one of the heroes to evil which was a story they stole from the extended universe they threw out.

Rian Johnson went and ruin that plus two characters. They honestly should've plotted out all three movies before grifting for cash.

Here’s where Kylo gets special treatment:

- When Rian Johnson pimped out Rey to Kylo without any story reason why, and LFL followed suit, even though that required hollowing out her character and arguably costing her one whole movie of development (TLJ).
- When Rian Johnson exiled Finn from the male lead role and promoted Kylo to the spot without fleshing out any reason to be sympathetic to him, and LFL followed suit.
- When Rian Johnson wrote a story where Luke gets bad mojo from Ben, considers killing him but doesn’t, and Ben’s response (in the film) is to then murder a bunch of uninvolved students... and our focus is supposed to be on Ben feeling betrayed by Luke, not, y’know, the murdered students.
- Basically, just every single way that TLJ and TROS tried to treat Kylo as a sympathetic character and a complex one - he wasn’t either, but the films pretending he was so basically neutered and destroyed the characters around him.

It’s much easier to catch if you’re a Finn fan, and see a film like TLJ do it’s damndest to belittle the previous male lead and promote his maimer in his place, but it shouldn’t really be hard for Rey fans, either - she lost her spine, central focus by the script, and got pushed into an abusive romance with a loathsome, fish-eyes Neo Nazi... and all that was in TLJ before TROS even started.

But also, on the whole “He was on the dark side to make the bigger villain look more bad-ass because he converted one of the heroes to evil which was a story they stole from the extended universe they threw out” thing... well, Kylo wasn’t a hero until LFL decided to screw over the story to make him so.

Chris Terio, Kathleen Kennedy and others have pointed to LFL rejecting the idea of Kylo as the Big Bad because they above all else wanted Ben Solo to get redeemed and share the spotlight against a big enemy - which means they wanted to give him special treatment detrimental to both Rey and Finn, as Finn was getting kicked entirely out of any equation like that, and didn’t give a damn about Rey or what story would best suit her.

Palpatine only came back because LFL wanted someone Ben could oppose. That’s special treatment.

[Triniking1234]

Kylo's place in the sequel trilogy was a rip-off Jacen Solo's story and they just replaced Jania Solo with Rey. Of course after The Force Awakens the plot would've shifted focus onto Kylo and Rey anyway because we didn't even get an origin story for Rey and they still needed to explain why Ben left and went to Snoke. So I'm not sure why you're mad, with the exception of the romantic sub-plot which was un-necessary, that the story went to its next natural step.

I'm not sure where you got that Rian Johnson tried to portray Kylo as sympathetic. Maybe the shirtless scene? But in other scenes like him smashing his helmet in rage and him blowing up his mum, you don't get the sympathetic character you're talking about. It's only in The Rise of Skywalker they make an attempt and that's only because Disney/Lucasfilm panicked after the reception of The Last Jedi.

Palpatine only came back because Rian Johnson killed off their big bad with the intention that Disney would make Kylo die a villain's death (similar to Jacen) but Disney backpedaled cuz of social media.

[godisawesome]

Kylo's place in the sequel trilogy was a rip-off Jacen Solo's story and they just replaced Jania Solo with Rey. Of course after The Force Awakens the plot would've shifted focus onto Kylo and Rey anyway because we didn't even get an origin story for Rey and they still needed to explain why Ben left and went to Snoke. So I'm not sure why you're mad, with the exception of the romantic sub-plot which was un-necessary, that the story went to its next natural step.

I'm not sure where you got that Rian Johnson tried to portray Kylo as sympathetic. Maybe the shirtless scene? But in other scenes like him smashing his helmet in rage and him blowing up his mum, you don't get the sympathetic character you're talking about. It's only in The Rise of Skywalker they make an attempt and that's only because Disney/Lucasfilm panicked after the reception of The Last Jedi.

Palpatine only came back because Rian Johnson killed off their big bad with the intention that Disney would make Kylo die a villain's death (similar to Jacen) but Disney backpedaled cuz of social media.

It’s special treatment because the only claim Kylo has to being a POV character comparable to Jacen is his family tie; he lacks every other trait that a POV protagonist needs.

For the record, I *do* get where you’re coming from, particularly as a Jacen Solo fan (YJK: Lightsabers was my favorite book in 4th grade, and NJO: Traitor is excellent), but I feel there were major differences in execution that kind of damage the comparison - caused in part, I think, because I seriously doubt that any of the writers and directors used Jacen as inspiration for Kylo/Ben.

Here’s the three biggest elements to me:

- Kylo, as established in TFA, couldn’t be a true POV protagonist like Jacen was, because Abrams’s goal with him was not to make him a male lead protagonist but an antagonistic supporting character.
- The biggest way Abrams (and Kasdan) installed a “ceiling” on Kylo was by making a massive statement with his murder of Han, and *why* he murdered Han, *when* he murdered Han, and *how* he murdered Han.
- As a problem shared by films past TFA, Kylo/Ben is never truly expanded beyond what he has - this is more of a functional problem than a conceptual one, but it’s what drags the rest of the ST down because the story is shaped to fit him instead of elevating him with the story.

Kylo becoming more important with Rey as her antagonist is something I fully expected, as was the supposition she would have a good reason to care about him that likely involved being family. But they never pulled the trigger on the possible family tie - which undercuts any comparison Rey can have to Jaina - while they also NEVER gave her a reason to care about him beyond the film declaring she should - often at her expense and to her detriment. And they even neglected the antagonist element - nothing about the way she treats him in TLJ conforms to how she, an unrelated stranger, would treat the man who violated her mind under torture, maimed her closest friend, and who murdered his own father/her other friend because it would make him more evil.

But to summarize: Kylo’s only claim to being a protagonist who needs Rey to focus on him more than Finn is because of his family tie. Now, I *do* think it was insane to not have the main character of the ST be a Skywalker... and I think TLJ itself especially shows that - it’s not *her* film, it’s more Kylo and Lukeks.