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  1. #16
    BANNED Starter Set's Avatar
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    No, the main reasons why the sequels suck is because they are trying way too hard to be the OT, to the point of parody and failing to develop any kind of identity of their own in the process, and cause they are just poorly written and directed.

    I mean, who are those people? Who's the hell is Rey? Why does she even care about helping the resistance in the first place? Cause a fcking droid was squeaking at her? Is that good enough a reason for a scavenger to give up a fortune in food? Why is Solo a legend for her? Her teacher in scavenger sunday school was a big fan of the dude? Wouldn't be a character like that completely ignorant of anything outside of Jakku?

    Three movies and those characters feel like strangers to me.

    In the OT for example they establishes that Luke wants to leave, you know that he isn't a big empire enthusiast and his own family is the victim of imperial brutality. You know why he wants to join the good fight. Maybe he wouldn't even have left, yet at least, if his uncle and aunt weren't murdered. But by the time he actually leaves that dust ball, you know why he is doing what he's doing. Nothing complicated about that character but his actions make sens.

    Rey? Man, i don't know. Only motivation we ever hear about her is that she wants TO STAY on Jakku lol.

  2. #17
    Spectacular Member macjr33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starter Set View Post
    No, the main reasons why the sequels suck is because they are trying way too hard to be the OT, to the point of parody and failing to develop any kind of identity of their own in the process, and cause they are just poorly written and directed.

    I mean, who are those people? Who's the hell is Rey? Why does she even care about helping the resistance in the first place? Cause a fcking droid was squeaking at her? Is that good enough a reason for a scavenger to give up a fortune in food? Why is Solo a legend for her? Her teacher in scavenger sunday school was a big fan of the dude? Wouldn't be a character like that completely ignorant of anything outside of Jakku?

    Three movies and those characters feel like strangers to me.

    In the OT for example they establishes that Luke wants to leave, you know that he isn't a big empire enthusiast and his own family is the victim of imperial brutality. You know why he wants to join the good fight. Maybe he wouldn't even have left, yet at least, if his uncle and aunt weren't murdered. But by the time he actually leaves that dust ball, you know why he is doing what he's doing. Nothing complicated about that character but his actions make sens.

    Rey? Man, i don't know. Only motivation we ever hear about her is that she wants TO STAY on Jakku lol.
    Luke also wants to go and fight because he learned that his father was a Jedi Knight and wanted to follow in his footsteps. Making it even easier to understand his motivations.

    All the characters in a New Hope follow well established archetypes in fiction and their motivations/actions are easy to understand. I agree that the sequel trilogy struggles because they characters personalities are so muddled.

    I do think what also hurt the sequel trilogy was that Rey never really had an experience similar to Luke in ESB or Anakin in AOTC where things generally didn't go their way and they got smacked in a fight ultimately losing limbs. The TLJ tried to do something with Rey's parents reveal; however, it fell flat and had no where near the impact of the Vader reveal in ESB.
    Last edited by macjr33; 12-20-2020 at 10:18 AM.

  3. #18
    Mighty Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Not a main reason.

    The biggest problem is the inconsistency and lack of creativity.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by macjr33 View Post
    The TLJ tried to do something with Rey's parents reveal; however, it fell flat and had no where near the impact of the Vader reveal in ESB.
    Yeah, that whole Rey's family thing plain annoyed me i must confess.

    The girl waits for her parents her whole life, she finally learns that her parents did have good reasons for leaving her behind, beside booze which is cool i guess, and that they died like dogs trying to protect her but nope, she doesn't even give the slightest of **** about it and goes on calling herself a freaking Skywalker. Am i the only one who was bothered by that?

    That would have been quite a good moment for her to shed a little tear for them. Wasn't her quest for truth about her parents her main drive, her goal?
    Last edited by Starter Set; 12-20-2020 at 11:18 AM.

  5. #20
    Incredible Member the nomad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
    Not a main reason.

    The biggest problem is the inconsistency and lack of creativity.

    ^^^ This all day. Her being way overpowered was not the main issue. IT was the inconsistency between writers. Lack of Direction. Mistreatment of old and new characters. And just a general lack of Creativity. Not mention the shoehorned Disney Comedy routine.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
    Not a main reason.

    The biggest problem is the inconsistency and lack of creativity.
    Quote Originally Posted by the nomad View Post
    ^^^ This all day. Her being way overpowered was not the main issue. IT was the inconsistency between writers. Lack of Direction. Mistreatment of old and new characters. And just a general lack of Creativity. Not mention the shoehorned Disney Comedy routine.
    Yeah.

    Again, if it was just Rey being overpowered, than there wouldn’t have been so much goodwill and excitement after TFA, as she’s still arguably overpowered there, but at least there’s competent focus and characterization for her and some originality with Finn going on while Han is used pretty well.

    Once you try and make her the Manic Pixie Dream Girl for the Neo-Nazi and waste the entire second film in a hipster meta-commentary on Star Wars itself, and then try fit two films worth of content into the last one in response, you lose a salvageable and even interesting starting point, and she takes much of the heat unfairly.
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  7. #22
    Ultimate Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Honestly, being OP in the Force isn't so much the issue, its the way it was done (along with so many other issues, of course). Legends Star Wars, for example, ended up having Luke become the most OP Force user ever. But it was also built up and allowed him to train and learn as he grew.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by macjr33 View Post
    Luke also wants to go and fight because he learned that his father was a Jedi Knight and wanted to follow in his footsteps. Making it even easier to understand his motivations.

    All the characters in a New Hope follow well established archetypes in fiction and their motivations/actions are easy to understand. I agree that the sequel trilogy struggles because they characters personalities are so muddled.

    I do think what also hurt the sequel trilogy was that Rey never really had an experience similar to Luke in ESB or Anakin in AOTC where things generally didn't go their way and they got smacked in a fight ultimately losing limbs. The TLJ tried to do something with Rey's parents reveal; however, it fell flat and had no where near the impact of the Vader reveal in ESB.
    Yeah, like Luke losing his aunt/uncle and even Dak. Or Anakin losing his mom. Dooku beating Anakin/Obi Wan. Or Vader defeating Luke in ESB. Major losses.

    Since TFA, the only one losing fights AND losing family members was Kylo.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Will Evans View Post
    Yeah, like Luke losing his aunt/uncle and even Dak. Or Anakin losing his mom. Dooku beating Anakin/Obi Wan. Or Vader defeating Luke in ESB. Major losses.

    Since TFA, the only one losing fights AND losing family members was Kylo.
    Rey in TFA was suffering from losing Han as a surrogate father and almost losing Finn and being separated from him right after they became a famine family, and she did get captured and tortured by Kylo as well as just rag dolled with one Force Shove before Finn held a wounded Kylo off long enough for her to recover before she defeated him.

    But that was in her first movie, during the exposition stage of her story arc across the films; while its useful to mix in some humbling experiences and pain in the first stage of a plot arc, the real rising stakes, set-backs, and humbling have to come on the second part of the arc, the rising action, which was supposed to be in TLJ.

    So even though I’d argue Rey actually suffers more than Anakin in TPM, about equal to Oni-Wan in TPM, and not that far from Luke in ANH... it didn’t really matter if she didn’t get any setbacks and development on par with them in AOTC and ESB, because the main character needs to have a strong rising action. ESB is exceptionally strong rising action for Luke, and while AOTC has numerous flaws, it still manages a sufficient amount of flaws, failures, and setbacks for Anakin.

    There’s no real attempt to give Rey that in TLJ... because I don’t think she’s really written as a main character in that film. That’s more how Luke and Kylo get written there. Honestly, once the film decided that his feelings being hurt and his face being scarred meant more than him torturing and violating her, killing the Han when he was becoming her father figure, and maiming Finn right after he came back for her... Rey was as screwed as Finn was.

    Honestly, you can have overly powerful and skilled main characters: Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel, Superman, and even Anakin and Luke considering what they do in their first movies.

    You can’t have overly powerful and skilled sidekicks or plot-tools-as-characters, unless it’s a comedy.

    And that’s what Rey is in TLJ - she’s an overly powerful plot-tool-as-a-character around Kylo. She’s not allowed to have a truly human storyline or suffer setbacks at Kylo’s hands, because the film can’t bear to have the audience root against Kylo.
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  10. #25
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    No. It's a symptom of larger problems ranging from not having original ideas and stories to tell, inability to plan things out, playing it safe, lack of respect for the mythology (this applies to JJ as much as RJ in my opinion), and mistaking nostalgia for world-building.

    Looking back I think the trilogy was doomed the moment the idea of Starkiller Base was conceived. Redoing the Death Star a third time was the biggest red flag that they had run out of ideas even though it was the first movie in the trilogy, and destroying the entire New Republic without ever even introducing the New Republic was a sure sign that they had no respect for the accomplishments of the rebels in the original trilogy. Even when I first saw The Force Awakens I thought the final third of the movie was crap and was calling 'taking off the mask' the reverse of 'growing the beard,' the moment when a good film becomes a bad one.

    The films would have been better if they focused on Finn instead of Rey, but to do that would have required an entirely different mindset that didn't feel the need to rehash A New Hope, make Rey just like Luke but 'better,' and have all of the original cast be miserable failures.

  11. #26
    Astonishing Member Ptrvc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    They're bad because JJ Abrams is a bad writer and has an undeserved reputation in Hollywood and nobody seems willing to admit it. The Star Trek movie should have been a red flag to Disney and wasn't. Rey is almost secondary to me considering the way the original cast was treated. Han went back to being a smuggler. Leia spent the rest of her life essentially still fighting the empire. And Luke spent the rest of his life in penance for trying to kill his nephew. Nobody got a happy ending here. These things bother me way more than some Mary Sue character. Luke was a Mary Sue in the first movies too. Nobody seemed to have a problem with that. This is why trying to assess what's wrong with the sequels is such a pointless endeavor. The list is extensive and covers a lot of ground. Was Rey a Mary Sue? Sure. Is that even remotely the biggest problem with these movies? Not even close.

    Someone at Disney should have looked over Abrams script and saw the way the original characters were being treated, and should have realized fans would hate it. This isn't that hard. If Disney deserves hate for anything, it's that. Any main character that has force powers, regardless of gender, will be labeled a Mary Sue. The movies had a lot of faults. All of the characters were wooden boards and were more ideas or concepts than people. Han was the rogue. Luke was the kid on a journey. Leia was the tough leader. What was Rey's personality? What was Finn's? Poe was the closest one to an actual character. Long story short: Abrams is a bad writer and someone at Disney should have caught that.
    Luke was not a Mary Sue. Luke repeatedly gets his assed handed to him and needs Obi Wan, Han, and Leia to pull his ass out of the fire. Even with all his potential he still needs training and discipline to master his abilities.

    Rey doesn't, she's just the best. She doesn't need training, doesn't need help, doesn't need anything, becauseshe'sjust that good.

    Luke has to wait till the third film until he can use the Jedi Mind Trick, after training with Yoda. Rey just has to know it's a thing in the first movie. Rey defeats a trained duelist with no training, Luke even after training, gets his ass handed to him and his hand chopped off and the only reason he survives is because Vader is his dad and wants to turn Luke to his side instead of killing him. Otherwise he'd of been shitstomped immediately, which Empire is clear on.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ptrvc View Post
    Luke was not a Mary Sue. Luke repeatedly gets his assed handed to him and needs Obi Wan, Han, and Leia to pull his ass out of the fire. Even with all his potential he still needs training and discipline to master his abilities.

    Rey doesn't, she's just the best. She doesn't need training, doesn't need help, doesn't need anything, becauseshe'sjust that good.

    Luke has to wait till the third film until he can use the Jedi Mind Trick, after training with Yoda. Rey just has to know it's a thing in the first movie. Rey defeats a trained duelist with no training, Luke even after training, gets his ass handed to him and his hand chopped off and the only reason he survives is because Vader is his dad and wants to turn Luke to his side instead of killing him. Otherwise he'd of been shitstomped immediately, which Empire is clear on.
    Again though... Rey does struggle, does get her ass kicked, and does need help - but all in The Force Awakens, the film that always has to deal with TLJ crapping it’s pants and shoving some towards it.

    Yeah, I’ll concede she learns the Jedi Mind Trick too fast; even the idea of her getting rough ideas from Kylo doesn’t excuse pulling off a more complex maneuver like that.

    But Kylo captured her without any effort when they first meet, violates her mind in a painful and humiliating torture session, and rag dolls her when she tries escaping, and she needs him gut-shot by a scripted-to-be-stronger bowcaster, wounded in the shoulder by Finn, going through a mental breakdown, and being held off by Finn while she’s unconscious before Kylo deliberately takes it easier on her before she can defeat him.

    She ain’t a Mary Sue in TFA; aside from the Mind Trick, the story is set-up about where Luke would be if he got captured by Vader, if Vader were more unstable and Luke leeched some minimal information from his mind.

    And while she may be a Mary Sue in TLJ, that’s far more because she’d be the kind of weakly written character-shilling type of Mary Sue used to worship the Draco In Leather Pants that is Kylo, instead of the Blackhole Sue the entire story revolves around...

    ...And frankly, that’s because *Kylo* becomes the Blackhole Sue in TLJ. And Blackhole Sues are worse, because they demand damaging other characters to serve their story. And that’s exactly what TLJ does with Kylo.
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  13. #28
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    The sooner the term "Mary Sue" is retired from discourse, the better off the human race will be.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    The sooner the term "Mary Sue" is retired from discourse, the better off the human race will be.
    Especially since it’s biggest issue with usage is that, in general, there is no single accepted definition, and because, of course, it ends up more often than not being applied to female characters.

    Now understand, I can respect arguments about her being “overpowered” even if I think the general outline of an “overpowered” argument actually misses the real meat of a problem - failure to execute dramatic tension - but for my money, unless someone’s willing to apply the same Mary Sue label to Kylo Ren, than they’re barking hot he wrong tree using it for Rey.
    Like action, adventure, rogues, and outlaws? Like anti-heroes, femme fatales, mysteries and thrillers?

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  15. #30
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperiorIronman View Post
    .....And frankly Anakin is the worst main character in that not only does he become Vader but before that he's a creepy, whiny, entitled brat, who believes in fascism while also killing people because he's angry. The man was always going to be a villain and somehow people got it in their heads he's a hero and someone to be respected. He's not.
    A lot of that was Sidious pulling strings behind the scenes. He carefully crafted Anakin's "Hero Without Fear" public image. If Anakin hadn't gotten himself f'up by Obi-wan he would have been portrayed as the only "Jedi" brave and wise enough to stand by the future Emperor.

    Mace was right, The Jedi Order never should have trained Anakin who was a ticking time bomb of burgeoning arrogance and pent up rage from the start.
    Last edited by Celgress; 12-21-2020 at 10:54 PM.
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