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  1. #31
    The Best There Is Wolverine12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Will Evans View Post
    Yeah, like Luke losing his aunt/uncle and even Dak. Or Anakin losing his mom. Dooku beating Anakin/Obi Wan. Or Vader defeating Luke in ESB. Major losses.

    Since TFA, the only one losing fights AND losing family members was Kylo.
    Rey did lose a grandfather....
    You brought back Wolverine

    The CBR Community Standards a.k.a how to get along.

  2. #32
    Mighty Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Especially since it’s biggest issue with usage is that, in general, there is no single accepted definition, and because, of course, it ends up more often than not being applied to female characters.

    Now understand, I can respect arguments about her being “overpowered” even if I think the general outline of an “overpowered” argument actually misses the real meat of a problem - failure to execute dramatic tension - but for my money, unless someone’s willing to apply the same Mary Sue label to Kylo Ren, than they’re barking hot he wrong tree using it for Rey.
    Mary Sue does exist in both genders, it just has some usage problem.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolverine12 View Post
    Rey did lose a grandfather....
    And her spine, brain, personality, and self-respect whenever Kylo/Ben showed up post-TFA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
    Mary Sue does exist in both genders, it just has some usage problem.
    Oh, yeah I agree in principal, and I’ve used Gary Stu before as well.

    But Rey getting the label early on during TFA is similar to people who claim that Finn was never meant to be the male lead, never a serious character, and could never have been feasibly considered a romantic lead.

    I seriously doubt their motives and standards.
    Like action, adventure, rogues, and outlaws? Like anti-heroes, femme fatales, mysteries and thrillers?

    I wrote a book with them. Outlaw’s Shadow: A Sherwood Noir. Robin Hood’s evil counterpart, Guy of Gisbourne, is the main character. Feel free to give it a look: https://read.amazon.com/kp/embed?asi...E2PKBNJFH76GQP

  4. #34
    Astonishing Member Ptrvc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Especially since it’s biggest issue with usage is that, in general, there is no single accepted definition, and because, of course, it ends up more often than not being applied to female characters.

    Now understand, I can respect arguments about her being “overpowered” even if I think the general outline of an “overpowered” argument actually misses the real meat of a problem - failure to execute dramatic tension - but for my money, unless someone’s willing to apply the same Mary Sue label to Kylo Ren, than they’re barking hot he wrong tree using it for Rey.
    The general accepted definition is that the Mary Sue warps the setting and prior characterizations around them. It used to only be used for fanfics, but since so much of what's produced today is based on prior franchises its come to describe professional works as well.

  5. #35
    Mighty Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    And her spine, brain, personality, and self-respect whenever Kylo/Ben showed up post-TFA.



    Oh, yeah I agree in principal, and I’ve used Gary Stu before as well.

    But Rey getting the label early on during TFA is similar to people who claim that Finn was never meant to be the male lead, never a serious character, and could never have been feasibly considered a romantic lead.

    I seriously doubt their motives and standards.
    I don't see Rey as a hard Sue, but her story certainly didn't get expanded well, plus the whole quality of the ST made ppl call her that.

    Just like Anakin in PT, I got Lucas' idea but he went a bit too far to show how tragic he was and didn't take well on the love story, so he got many hate, even the actor was badly blamed for it.

  6. #36
    Mighty Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ptrvc View Post
    The general accepted definition is that the Mary Sue warps the setting and prior characterizations around them. It used to only be used for fanfics, but since so much of what's produced today is based on prior franchises its come to describe professional works as well.
    Because bad writing existed in canon as well.

    Having Mary Sue traits doesn't make a character Sue, it all depends on balance and control.

  7. #37
    Astonishing Member Ptrvc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
    Because bad writing existed in canon as well.

    Having Mary Sue traits doesn't make a character Sue, it all depends on balance and control.
    But Rey is a Sue through and through. Could've been a story on Fanfiction.com in the early 2000s Rey Palpatine: The Greatest Jedi.

  8. #38
    Mighty Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ptrvc View Post
    But Rey is a Sue through and through. Could've been a story on Fanfiction.com in the early 2000s Rey Palpatine: The Greatest Jedi.
    I think her own character was not over the top, but the whole background story and development was very poorly written so it could only rely on those WTF moments to go on.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ptrvc View Post
    But Rey is a Sue through and through. Could've been a story on Fanfiction.com in the early 2000s Rey Palpatine: The Greatest Jedi.
    See I hear you say this, but earlier you posted this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ptrvc View Post
    The general accepted definition is that the Mary Sue warps the setting and prior characterizations around them. It used to only be used for fanfics, but since so much of what's produced today is based on prior franchises its come to describe professional works as well.
    ...and how does that not apply to Kylo more so than Rey?

    Kylo stops blaster bolts in midair and performs necromancy as Ben Solo, so he and Rey are both “overpowered,” but he’s clearly warping prior characterizations around him at a clip that far outpaces hers.

    Luke becomes a shitty Jedi and selfish coward to sell Ben Solo as being pitiable and sympathetic somehow without actually showing why we should ignore Kylo being a banal bastard, plenty of Ben fans and creators want to tarnish Han and Leia as well to further fluff up Kylo/Ben, and Rey blatantly gets rewritten to fit fawning over Kylo where that wouldn’t work before... and Palpatine’s return is because LFL couldn’t stand making Kylo the main villain and not making a Ben Solo the male lead over Finn.

    To me, while Rye has some weaknesses as a character in TFA, she has nothing on the sheer inanity and blatant fanboying Kylo Ren experiences... and it’s not a coincidence that Rey, like Finn, was at her most popular after TFA, where she was the main character and Finn was her co-Star woth Kylo as their foil and villain, then her popularity plummeted after TLJ and into TROS, where she’s hammered into an unworkable and clumsily written romance with Kylo at her expense as Finn gets replaced and the OT3 get tarnished for his sake... which also coincided with the ST losing about half its starting audience.

    And of course, we’ve also got LFL deciding that of all the ST characters who could desperately use a miniseries to fix them up a bit... it’s Kylo who got The Rise Of Kylo Ren, which exists almost exclusively to try white-washing him of the murder of Luke’s students. Giving Rey a good story! Nah! Giving Finn a good story? Nah! Fawning over Kylo and retconning events to try and make him more sympathetic? Yeah!... for some reason.

    If there is a character you could call a Mary Sue, I think the one who clearly warps more character and storylines around himself takes the crown, not the usurped and undermined heroine.

    (And just to point this out, if someone tries to argue Ben/Kylo’s parentage excuses his special treatment... OC Mary Sues can totally be the offspring of popular characters as well.)
    Like action, adventure, rogues, and outlaws? Like anti-heroes, femme fatales, mysteries and thrillers?

    I wrote a book with them. Outlaw’s Shadow: A Sherwood Noir. Robin Hood’s evil counterpart, Guy of Gisbourne, is the main character. Feel free to give it a look: https://read.amazon.com/kp/embed?asi...E2PKBNJFH76GQP

  10. #40
    Mighty Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Have you guys played SWTOR? Kylo Ren's story was largely a ripoff from Arcann, Rey also got many similar plot/setting with PC/Vaylin.

  11. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Kylo stops blaster bolts in midair and performs necromancy as Ben Solo, so he and Rey are both “overpowered,” but he’s clearly warping prior characterizations around him at a clip that far outpaces hers.
    Kylo is a little whinig bitch, that fails miserably at (nearly) everything he sets out to achieve, is constantly beaten and humiliated by other/lesser characters, is incompetent, emotionally unstable and so pitiful that he cant even replace Snoke as the main villain. Thats why they had to bring back Plapatine.

    Compared to the amazing wonderray that is a genius in (nearly) everything, liked by everyone, experiences not a single failure of larger magnitude and gets her powers to her handed on a silver platter, who of the two is a greater Marey Sue?

    JJ Abrams supposed drafts for Episode 8 and 9 would have explained Reys powers as beeing controled by Luke during EP 7 which would have been an acceptable explanation. Instead we got nothing and Rey was EVEN MORE OP in TLJ which plays like immediately after TFA.....

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celestialbeyonder View Post
    Kylo is a little whinig bitch, that fails miserably at (nearly) everything he sets out to achieve, is constantly beaten and humiliated by other/lesser characters, is incompetent, emotionally unstable and so pitiful that he cant even replace Snoke as the main villain. Thats why they had to bring back Plapatine.
    He’s also coddled, spoiled, and sympathized with by the script in a banal attempt at moral relativity, is supposed to be attractive and sympathetic in his “suffering,” like how the script twice treating a scar on his face - one that the director moved so it would be less disfiguring - as something serious and dramatic while making fun of the injuries he gave Finn that nearly killed him. He’s suppose to be a Troubked But Cute Woobie Destroyer Of Worlds Draco In Leather Pants, and again... it’s pretty clear Rey is being wrecked to serve him, not the other way around. Kylo doesn’t fundamentally change from TFA - he simply gets treated differently, and everyone else is dragged down to do that. He’s a total Blackhole Sue - an event horizon the story start orbiting a round and being dragged down by

    ...Though perhaps it would be better to drop the “Mary Sue” argument, which has too many debatable interpretations and meaning, and one stand just treat both characters as fan fiction elements since Mary Sues can be “too perfect” or “suffer too much” depending on the fan fiction.

    And if we do that... which characters’ rise in prominence corresponds with the worst writing and most ignorantly un-self-aware treatment?

    Which character is the writer or company most focused on in a way that doesn’t make sense?

    Which one is the Creator’ Pet?

    It’s the one that is the central focus of three flashbacks in TLJ, which end up throwing Luke under the bus in an attempt and blame him for their fall, the one who the script decides should have their “mind-sexual-assaults victim” fall for and invest all of her hopes in, and the one who gets the climactic confrontation with Luke while Rey gets shuffled off for not being a Skywalker, since Luke clearly cares more about them than her.

    And that’s Kylo.

    I defy anyone to tell me that Johnson was more interested in or cared about Rey more than Kylo. That’s pretty much impossible. She got badly written out of apathy and obligation by him, while he prostrated the entire Trilogy for the bad guy.
    Like action, adventure, rogues, and outlaws? Like anti-heroes, femme fatales, mysteries and thrillers?

    I wrote a book with them. Outlaw’s Shadow: A Sherwood Noir. Robin Hood’s evil counterpart, Guy of Gisbourne, is the main character. Feel free to give it a look: https://read.amazon.com/kp/embed?asi...E2PKBNJFH76GQP

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperiorIronman View Post
    You don't need to turn it into a fuckin math problem.
    They're bad for the same reason the prequels are. The script and VFX aren't great.
    I think there is big differnce.

    The overall plot of the prequels is solid, the scripts and the characters would have needed more work and Lukas should have probably hired someone else to direct (as he did with the original trilogy). But I think they could have been good movies without changing the story drastically.

    The overall plot of the sequels is a mess, if their even is one. I think they had to make completely different movies to end up with something good.

  14. #44
    Spectacular Member macjr33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    I think there is big differnce.

    The overall plot of the prequels is solid, the scripts and the characters would have needed more work and Lukas should have probably hired someone else to direct (as he did with the original trilogy). But I think they could have been good movies without changing the story drastically.

    The overall plot of the sequels is a mess, if their even is one. I think they had to make completely different movies to end up with something good.
    I agree with this sentiment, I've said before the prequels are a good story poorly executed; whereas, the sequels are a bad story well executed.

    Also, a lot of the posts here have affirmed for me how much of a problem Kylo Ren and his story was for the sequel trilogy particularly after TFA. Which is a shame because I think Adam Driver is a talented actor and I liked Kylo in TFA (and liked Rey as well for that matter).

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by macjr33 View Post
    I agree with this sentiment, I've said before the prequels are a good story poorly executed; whereas, the sequels are a bad story well executed.

    Also, a lot of the posts here have affirmed for me how much of a problem Kylo Ren and his story was for the sequel trilogy particularly after TFA. Which is a shame because I think Adam Driver is a talented actor and I liked Kylo in TFA (and liked Rey as well for that matter).
    That’s how I feel as well - Abrams and Johnson both delivered better films in terms of acting and directing than Lucas did with the PT with their casts and crews... but without a stable support structure beneath them, a lot of the good in all three films was wasted, countered, and undermined by the others. In contrast, Lucas was clearly shaking off some serious rust as a writer and director in the PT, but provided such a stable framework that even when AOTC took quite a few unforced errors, the franchise kept trucking along and making a good overall story, and the final film benefitted immensely.

    The PT is almost literally a “Mirror Earth” version of the ST.

    And I think you can clearly see that in how Rey is treated vs Anakin. Anakin is introduced in a dubiously executed story that nonetheless lays the groundwork for his power level and flaws in TPM, gets those flaws and power level examined in the second film that still struggles thanks to directing and acting, and then cashes in pretty well in ROTS. Rey is introduced in a wonderfully executed story that has some pretty good flaws there but is exceedingly light on explanation for her powers, than even as the actress keeps working her butt off, gets backstabbed and undermined by the writing of the second film, than is left holding the bag when TROS comes.

    There’s even arguably a reversal in how Anakin only really becomes the protagonist in AOTC, while Rey loses that position a bit to Luke and Kylo in TLJ... and in how Obi-Wan’ story in AOTC moves the meat of the external plot forward, while Finn’s story in TLJ is basically total filler.

    To me, Rey being overpowered and seemingly unchallenged was never the cause of the ST’s problems. It was a symptom of lack of vision. And I feel like what vision there was in the last two films is clearly aimed away from her... and towards Kylo Ren.
    Like action, adventure, rogues, and outlaws? Like anti-heroes, femme fatales, mysteries and thrillers?

    I wrote a book with them. Outlaw’s Shadow: A Sherwood Noir. Robin Hood’s evil counterpart, Guy of Gisbourne, is the main character. Feel free to give it a look: https://read.amazon.com/kp/embed?asi...E2PKBNJFH76GQP

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