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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Comparing Han and Finn is a huge misfire. Han was a super capable character right from the beginning and obvious asset for the Rebellion - as plainly stated by Leia in beginning of ESB. Finn was a line grunt whose main asset for the Resistance was that he had been a janitor in Starkiller base. Once that potential was used up, he was little different from hundreds if not thousands of similar mooks Resistance had. When TFA ended we were supposed to think Finn's condition was serious. It would have been felt cheap if he had been just awake at the beginning of the movie "oh I was fine all along". Also, even if he HAD been awake immediately after Rey left, so what? The time jump between Starkiller base fight and the ending of TFA where Rey meets Luke was short - probably like few weeks. What was Finn going to learn in that time?
    Han in ANH is a blowhard smuggler who doesn’t display any extraordinary skills or competence beyond some impressive cajones.

    It’s ESB, his second appearance, that actually establishes him to be a skilled pilot, exceptionally clever and cunning criminal, and charming rogue.

    And Johnson actually was going to have Finn appear awake in the next film in his earliest drafts, as a co-gunner with Paige, so clearly the problem in Johnson’ mind wasn’t anything logistical, but apathy, since he explicitly just didn’t want to write the fall-out between Finn and Rose.

    It also doesn’t help Johnson that someone like Greg Rucka had looked at TFA and felt like he could easily extrapolate “Finn is an officer candidate” but Johnson was like “Black man is Janitor! Hahahahaha!”

    The fact Johnson also looked at a school shooter Neo-Nazi who tried to mind rape Rey and said “Ain’t he pretty, though?” just follows on the fact it was a failure of perspective and imagination on his part.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    So JJ had more bad ideas, no surprise there. I don't know who or what LFL is.
    The reason why they pushed for ReyLo in TRoS was quite simple - their chemistry had been one of the few things in TLJ which most people agreed was good and intriguing. So it's natural they wanted to build on that. Maybe that was a mistake, and maybe they should not have sacrificed everything else to get there. But can't blame them for putting their chips on obvious winning number. Note the completely contrasting treatment of Finn-Rose angle.

    It is amusing that in TRoS, nearly everything Rian Johnson was blamed about - destroying Snoke, ignoring Knights of Ren, keeping Finn useless - was repeated with more gusto. So maybe JJ wasn't lying after all when he said he had read and approved TLJ script!
    LFL is Lucasfilm. And if we’re talking hypotheticals of someone not reading the previous films’s script, the dude who thought Rey would fall for Kylo is a lot bigger suspect than the dude who had to recover from TLJ shitting on his movie.

    Reylo is trash that didn’t help Rey at all. Fewer women actually came to TROS premier than had for TFA and TLJ, because Reylo, as Johnson introduced it, doesn’t actually help her at all. It’s a pathetic, shallow bit of niche writing that just was never going to have the appeal of treating Rey as an actual h8man being and main character, instead of being a prize for Kylo to lip-wobble out and “win” somehow. Not that it had to be, mind you; more that LFL simply didn’t care about anything but Kylo Ren.

    And I’m not denying the hypothesis that Reylo probably got a bigger number of female fans than male fans. But it’s a sad, pathetic argument to try saying it was some asset that made her more successful than before: TFA made $700 Million more when she was platonically paired with Finn and portrayed as having a spine and humanity, and what appeal Reylo had follows the same limited appeal that, say, makes the 50 Shades character less popular than Bell Swan less popular than Katniss Everdeen less popular than Captain Marvel.

    Rey was more popular and successful before Reylo because Reylo was a liability to her.

    What hurts Rey more?

    1. Being a powerful action heroine, like Captain Marvel or Wonder Woman?

    2. Being an unfunny, inexplicable, and spineless version of Harley Quinn to Kylo’s Emo-Joker?

    (Hint: it’s #2)
    Quote Originally Posted by dkrook View Post
    Other than Finn being forced to simp for Rey, dude had way more agency in TROS. Overall KK overlord directives ruined Finn more than either director. She had his romantic opposite lead given to the villain, she killed Finn being a force sensitive ex-stormtrooper. KK wanted to make sure these movies were saccrine clean white princess fantasies. Instead of solidly written sci-fi fantasy.
    TROS *is* better for Finn than TLJ, though yeah, I do think that someone at LFL interfered in his story for the sake of Kylo. Kennedy would be a “suspect” for that, but I don’t think she’s alone in her biases, and I think it’s more likely someone thought they were operating for her interests in ordering his story be chopped up in editing. She likely was directly behind the impetus to replace Kylo as the main villain with anyone not named Kylo, and thus Palpatine, but I tend to think she wants to be far away from the final product if she can help it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisIII View Post
    Were Solo's issues (the director switch, mainly) Kathleen Kennedy's call? Not sure if I remember exactly how things played out. There's some fans who think L3 was inspired by her or something like that as well.
    The Solo issues are funky.

    1. Kasdan agreed to help with TFA if they would produce his Han Solo script, and apparently he even pushed for Lord and Miller.

    2. Kasdan then wound up becoming the one who demanded Lord and Miller leave the production after finding out how much free styling they did on his script.

    3. Kennedy thus had a much bigger reshoot issue than she did with Rogue One, as more of the film had been made in a “useless” manner, while with RO, they could still use the general framework and many scenes form Edwards production, and had more flexibility in the script.
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  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Yes, but this is actually the problem: Finn is the focus character of TFA and pretty much achieves everything one can reasonable expect from such an underdog character rising to the occasion. His character arc is complete at the end of movie. Worse, his character ends TFA in a coma. Even worse, TFA ends in a cliffhanger which whoever writes the next movie has to immediately address. So there is no offscreen time to write his character more powerful. He is still just an average grunt whose only asset for Resistance was that he knew some inside stuff. Compare this to what unique abilities Poe and Rey bring: ace starfighter pilot and Force user, respectively.

    And before you assign too much blame to Rian Johnson, let us not forget what JJ Abrams achieved with Finn once he got the character back, without having the same anchors weighing him down which he had left for Johnson: absolutely nothing. Finn in TRoS is worse than in TLJ.
    Throughout The Force Awakens, there were hints that Finn had some kind of connection to the Force, such as Kylo Ren instantly recognizing him, Rey repeating his “I can do this…” while on the Millennium Falcon, and Finn hearing the screams of the victims of the destruction of Hosnian Prime (kind of like Obi-Wan did with Alderaan). There’s even a “Force” sound effect that’s used in some scenes in the film, which appears early on when Finn’s dying friend in the Stormtrooper corps marks his bloodied hand on his helmet where again he seem to feel the pain of the villagers also. That would make Finn more than the "average grunt". But Johnson chose to ignore that about Finn and pair him up with Rose to tech him about child slavery (he was just under subjugation with the First Order from a young age) and other issues that were not really relevant to the story. RJ squandered Finn's potential as a force user.

    TROS seemed like it was trying to jam 2 movies into 1 you can watch TFA and TROS with out seeing TLJ all you really need to know is that Luke and Snoke die. And JJ did give Finn back the open door for him to be a Force user later on as he kept trying to tell Rey about as Boyega put it "an instinct...a feeling". Looking back I don't think the initial marketing tease that made it look like he was going to be a Jedi in The Force Awakens wasn't really misleading at all its just that Jonson didn't want to go with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestialbeyonder View Post
    Kylo was somewhat wounded, however since his wounds are entirely healed by the next movie which plays around 24 hours after TFA, they could not have been severe. His armour probably absorbed most of the blast. And all Finn did with that one strike was piss Kylo of. Meanwhile Rey was slammed into a tree, lost consciousness, was freezing/suffering from hypothermia and had learned about the force 2 days ago, yet she still managed to defeat a far more experienced force user who, even if he had been at just 10% of his full power, should still have defeated her.

    She did equally well against the guards as Kylo and when pulling the lightsaber her force pull was equal to Kylo as well. This is quite a problem. Because if one says:

    A) She defeated Kylo in TFA only because he was greatly weakened, it would mean that within 2 days she went from greatly weakened Kylo to as strong as full power Kylo. Which would make her a Marey Sue
    B) She defeated Kylo in TFA because he was somewhat wounded and her powers had allready developed so far that she was a match for him. Which would make her a Marey Sue.
    The issue is is more of what Jonson did with Kylo in TLJ than what JJ did with Rey in TFA. The Force Awakens was a great set up for both Rey and Finn but the ball was dropped in The Last Jedi in so many ways. Her force prowess was never explained as it could have been, so we just ended up with Palpatine because reasons

    Quote Originally Posted by dkrook View Post
    Other than Finn being forced to simp for Rey, dude had way more agency in TROS. Overall KK overlord directives ruined Finn more than either director. She had his romantic opposite lead given to the villain, she killed Finn being a force sensitive ex-stormtrooper. KK wanted to make sure these movies were saccrine clean white princess fantasies. Instead of solidly written sci-fi fantasy.
    She is not a creative force for the movies. Ryan Jonson has said in many interviews that he had full and complete creative control in the Last Jedi, so much so that the last scene of TFA was changed to fit his movie. If Kennedy is guilty of anything it is approving the "tag your it" story writing when it came to the new trilogy as it seems they went without even a rough outline for the writers to go off of. Daisy Ridley said in an interview that JJ had made an outline but LFL didn't go with in favor of each writer/director creating their own with each instalment.
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  3. #93
    Ultimate Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    I think the scenes with Finn as a gunner were actually filmed; there's some footage of Boyega in the outfit in the "sizzle reel" of Last Jedi that was shown at (I think) San Diego or Celebration.


    Kind of reminds me of the alternate scenes shot for ROTJ with Madine commanding the fleet if the Ackbar puppet/costume filmed poorly.
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  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Comparing Han and Finn is a huge misfire. Han was a super capable character right from the beginning and obvious asset for the Rebellion - as plainly stated by Leia in beginning of ESB.
    I think Finn is more similar to Luke in ANH, who is for a good part of that movie also not portrait as capable and experienced as the other main characters, think is just that Luke is the main hero/chosen one and growth through out the trilogy.


    Btw. the Rebels TV show made imo a far better job in balancing their Force users and their mundane characters. Hera and Sabine came never of as if they were less capable than Kanan and Ezra.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    I think Finn is more similar to Luke in ANH, who is for a good part of that movie also not portrait as capable and experienced as the other main characters
    So the Stormtrooper that has been trained from a young age to be a killing machine/fighter behaves like a goofy idiot that is incapable at everything throughout most of TFA/ the entire trilogy.
    Yet the 19 year old orphan that spends most of her time scavanging so that she doesnt starve to death, is an expert at everything life throws at her.....

  6. #96
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    In answer to the title, no. I don't think that's remotely a factor for the mass of the audience who are used to invincible action heroes but not heroines. I think it goes more to a horrible inconsistency of visions between two directors and inconsistency with audience expectations.
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  7. #97
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    Bad writing - but primarily bad story structuring. Bad plotting. I think plenty of examples of dialogue are "Star Warsy" and you can't pin any of the fatal flaws on the actors. And you can debate whether any given high concept or character background/direction was the best choice, but you know, it's all in the execution.

    There's nothing wrong with an OP character if you set it up right, execute it well, then turn the fact that they're OP into the very challenge they have to overcome.
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  8. #98
    Spectacular Member Ikari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Han in ANH is a blowhard smuggler who doesn’t display any extraordinary skills or competence beyond some impressive cajones.

    It’s ESB, his second appearance, that actually establishes him to be a skilled pilot, exceptionally clever and cunning criminal, and charming rogue.
    All of that was well estabilished in ANH already. What ESB estabilished was that Han was also a good leader. Again, there was a time jump between ANH and ESB and it is implied lots of stuff happened where Han was able to showcase and develope his abilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    And Johnson actually was going to have Finn appear awake in the next film in his earliest drafts, as a co-gunner with Paige, so clearly the problem in Johnson’ mind wasn’t anything logistical, but apathy, since he explicitly just didn’t want to write the fall-out between Finn and Rose.

    It also doesn’t help Johnson that someone like Greg Rucka had looked at TFA and felt like he could easily extrapolate “Finn is an officer candidate” but Johnson was like “Black man is Janitor! Hahahahaha!”
    Drafts are just that, drafts. They float ideas which often turn out to be not working which is why they are different from finalized movie.

    "Black man is a janitor" was not Rian Johnson idea. I get you hate him, but it is really silly how you keep blaming him from stuff done by other writers before he had any involvment with the project. I agree he could have done TLJ better in many respects, but the cold hard fact is that TFA was written in very self-contained fashion - like ANH (it's like poetry, it rhymes...) but with awkward ending which made it hard to pick up the baton.

    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    The fact Johnson also looked at a school shooter Neo-Nazi who tried to mind rape Rey and said “Ain’t he pretty, though?” just follows on the fact it was a failure of perspective and imagination on his part.
    Adam Driver does nothing for me, but my female friends who saw Star Wars thought he was SUPER HOT and watched all his movies afterwards. So I dunno.

    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    LFL is Lucasfilm. And if we’re talking hypotheticals of someone not reading the previous films’s script, the dude who thought Rey would fall for Kylo is a lot bigger suspect than the dude who had to recover from TLJ shitting on his movie.

    Reylo is trash that didn’t help Rey at all. Fewer women actually came to TROS premier than had for TFA and TLJ, because Reylo, as Johnson introduced it, doesn’t actually help her at all. It’s a pathetic, shallow bit of niche writing that just was never going to have the appeal of treating Rey as an actual h8man being and main character, instead of being a prize for Kylo to lip-wobble out and “win” somehow. Not that it had to be, mind you; more that LFL simply didn’t care about anything but Kylo Ren.

    And I’m not denying the hypothesis that Reylo probably got a bigger number of female fans than male fans. But it’s a sad, pathetic argument to try saying it was some asset that made her more successful than before: TFA made $700 Million more when she was platonically paired with Finn and portrayed as having a spine and humanity, and what appeal Reylo had follows the same limited appeal that, say, makes the 50 Shades character less popular than Bell Swan less popular than Katniss Everdeen less popular than Captain Marvel.
    TFA already hinted at ReyLo - at that point it was one-sided by Kylo, but that's how most of the big fictional romances start. TLJ developed it into more mutual territory, yes. But it also had Rey turning him down after she realized that he was still evil and she did not seem to give him second thought after that. JJ could have easily continued from there in TroS. There was nothing in TLJ which mandated him to continue on that vein - unlike Finn/Rose which was left like there was indeed a big thing, which he then blatantly dumped! Reason for that is cynically simple: more people responded positively for ReyLo than FiSe [is that how you write it?].

    I am not following you at all with that comparison. It is generally agreed that 50 Shades mains had a poor chemistry. I found Katniss whining after Peeta annoying and thought their eventual resolution forced. Maybe it was better in the book, IDK. It's good Cpt Marvel didn't have a romantic subplot. I'm not sure how any of that ties to anything??

    Lot has been said about TLJ and TRoS making less in box office than TFA, but ESB & RotJ had similar drops compared to original Star Wars.

    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Rey was more popular and successful before Reylo because Reylo was a liability to her.

    What hurts Rey more?

    1. Being a powerful action heroine, like Captain Marvel or Wonder Woman?

    2. Being an unfunny, inexplicable, and spineless version of Harley Quinn to Kylo’s Emo-Joker?

    (Hint: it’s #2)
    #2 happened - if it ever happened - in TRoS, so why is it Rian Johnson's fault?

    I am fairly sure Rey is more popular character amongst the hoi polloi than MCU Cpt Marvel or DCEU Wonder Woman.

    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    TROS *is* better for Finn than TLJ, though yeah, I do think that someone at LFL interfered in his story for the sake of Kylo. Kennedy would be a “suspect” for that, but I don’t think she’s alone in her biases, and I think it’s more likely someone thought they were operating for her interests in ordering his story be chopped up in editing. She likely was directly behind the impetus to replace Kylo as the main villain with anyone not named Kylo, and thus Palpatine, but I tend to think she wants to be far away from the final product if she can help it.
    Kennedy is an experienced producer who has been behind a ton of blockbusters. I think that was actually the problem, she saw whole thing as just another day in the office, she hired directors and writers and arranged them resources and did not oversee the process. I really don't buy to the idea of her being some sort of puppet master directing the whole thing to her own image. I can only point at the messes JJ made from Star Trek, and ask 'why did anyone think this would end up being any different?'
    Last edited by Ikari; 01-11-2021 at 05:07 AM.

  9. #99
    Spectacular Member Ikari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K. Jones View Post
    Bad writing - but primarily bad story structuring. Bad plotting. I think plenty of examples of dialogue are "Star Warsy" and you can't pin any of the fatal flaws on the actors. And you can debate whether any given high concept or character background/direction was the best choice, but you know, it's all in the execution.

    There's nothing wrong with an OP character if you set it up right, execute it well, then turn the fact that they're OP into the very challenge they have to overcome.
    ^Yep. You could tone down Rey's character a bit, but then what? It wouldn't change anything. We still would have the problems of pacing, structuring, poor role for Finn and lack of good build for the villain.

  10. #100
    Spectacular Member Ikari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    Throughout The Force Awakens, there were hints that Finn had some kind of connection to the Force, such as Kylo Ren instantly recognizing him, Rey repeating his “I can do this…” while on the Millennium Falcon, and Finn hearing the screams of the victims of the destruction of Hosnian Prime (kind of like Obi-Wan did with Alderaan). There’s even a “Force” sound effect that’s used in some scenes in the film, which appears early on when Finn’s dying friend in the Stormtrooper corps marks his bloodied hand on his helmet where again he seem to feel the pain of the villagers also. That would make Finn more than the "average grunt". But Johnson chose to ignore that about Finn and pair him up with Rose to tech him about child slavery (he was just under subjugation with the First Order from a young age) and other issues that were not really relevant to the story. RJ squandered Finn's potential as a force user.
    Have to say that I have watched TFA 3 times? I think and never saw any Force foreshadowing for either Rey or Finn before Maz's tavern. I did think on first watch that it was Finn who was going to be revealed Force user, because of the trailers.
    Having both Finn and Rey turning out to be Force users on such 'advanced' age (for a Jedi trainee) would have been awkward, IMO. Some sort of modest Force sensitivity (kinda like that blind guy in Rogue 1) might have been a cool feature tho, and would have given the characters some connection.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    TROS seemed like it was trying to jam 2 movies into 1 you can watch TFA and TROS with out seeing TLJ all you really need to know is that Luke and Snoke die. And JJ did give Finn back the open door for him to be a Force user later on as he kept trying to tell Rey about as Boyega put it "an instinct...a feeling". Looking back I don't think the initial marketing tease that made it look like he was going to be a Jedi in The Force Awakens wasn't really misleading at all its just that Jonson didn't want to go with it.
    Well, JJ didn't go with it either. Neither would have Trevorrow by the looks of it.
    In fairness to the writers, apparently one big thing which was planned ahead was for Leia to become proper Jedi in the last movie. As we all know, that did not happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    She is not a creative force for the movies. Ryan Jonson has said in many interviews that he had full and complete creative control in the Last Jedi, so much so that the last scene of TFA was changed to fit his movie. If Kennedy is guilty of anything it is approving the "tag your it" story writing when it came to the new trilogy as it seems they went without even a rough outline for the writers to go off of. Daisy Ridley said in an interview that JJ had made an outline but LFL didn't go with in favor of each writer/director creating their own with each instalment.
    Really? Wow, that is unexpected because as I said, I thought TFA ended in a fashion which made it very awkward for the next part. What was the planned ending?
    edit. apparently it was just something about floating boulders which Luke was originally supposed to be doing when Rey found him. Nothing big it seems, just a tonal thing.

    Kennedy's main impact was probably rejecting Trevorrow script, which had Kylo as a full blown villain: that may have been why it was rejected, I don't know if anything more has been said about it.
    Last edited by Ikari; 01-11-2021 at 06:12 AM. Reason: googled it

  11. #101
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    Any claim there was Reylo in TFA is bullshit. Mind Rape =/= Romance. Johnson introduced that ****, because he had trouble connecting with the black male lead and an assertive female main character; dude has some accidental prejudices.

    Hell yes, there’s a major change of TFA was originally going to end with Luke floating the boulders vs TLJ’s opening - the former shows Luke has the Force already, and pretty much guarantees Rey’s going to get training, not be an audience surrogate for some bland, banal, boring bullshit of pretentious melodrama.

    Johnson got the longest development time of the ST, and somehow fumbled everything like it was his career.

    Abrams got handed episode IX after LFL had declared they wouldn’t accept Kylo as the main villain, but still wanted him taking away Finn’s spot, even though Kylo ain’t worth shot in that role, and it fucked over Rey’s story to do so.

    And that **** came from TLJ.

    Abrams got a job to respect the worst **** from TLJ, and hell yes, LFL almost certainly intentionally sabotaged Finn while unintentionally sabotaging Rey because Reylo is poisonous toxic **** as Rian Johnson defined it.

    Abrams has his crap, but Johnson contributed a greater amount to the ST with TLJ.
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  12. #102
    Oni of the Ash Moon Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Have to say that I have watched TFA 3 times? I think and never saw any Force foreshadowing for either Rey or Finn before Maz's tavern. I did think on first watch that it was Finn who was going to be revealed Force user, because of the trailers.
    Having both Finn and Rey turning out to be Force users on such 'advanced' age (for a Jedi trainee) would have been awkward, IMO. Some sort of modest Force sensitivity (kinda like that blind guy in Rogue 1) might have been a cool feature tho, and would have given the characters some connection.
    I just made a list in the previous post. Such as Kylo Ren instantly recognizing him and the defector Storm trooper after Jakku in which planet side Ren seemed to feel something in him as he chose not to shoot the villages.
    From the script: "Kylo Ren heads back toward his ship. But then he STOPS. Feels something. TURNS AND LOOKS AT OUR STORMTROOPER for a LONG MOMENT."
    Both Finn and Rey repeating "I can do this" when not together while escaping Tie Fighters on Jakku as if they were connected some how, Maybe by the force?
    From the script" "FINN Great. (reacts to seat) Whoa! I can do this, I can do this--...REY I can do this, I can do this-- Rey pulls the yoke:"
    Then hearing the screams of the victims of the destruction of Hosnian Prime.
    from the script: "Finn boards the Alien Freighter. The SOUND FROM THE SKY makes him turn back. He sees the PATH OF FIRE and his blood runs cold, his heart sinks. (in the movie that "sound from the sky' are screams)"

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Well, JJ didn't go with it either. Neither would have Trevorrow by the looks of it.
    In fairness to the writers, apparently one big thing which was planned ahead was for Leia to become proper Jedi in the last movie. As we all know, that did not happen.
    JJ did and he just didn't fully commit. I will agree that his "mystery box" approach to movies is not fitting for a final installment but he again opened the door for Finn to be force. The reason we didn't get to see full Leia Jedi was because of the loss of Carrie Fisher.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Really? Wow, that is unexpected because as I said, I thought TFA ended in a fashion which made it very awkward for the next part. What was the planned ending?
    edit. apparently it was just something about floating boulders which Luke was originally supposed to be doing when Rey found him. Nothing big it seems, just a tonal thing.

    Kennedy's main impact was probably rejecting Trevorrow script, which had Kylo as a full blown villain: that may have been why it was rejected, I don't know if anything more has been said about it.
    The floating boulders (something Rey got to do at the end of TLJ) would have completely undermined Johnson's idea of why Luke isolated himself, and possibly Ben's turn to the dark side so much so that Mark Hamill was worried it would mess up the continuity that he called the directors about it. The ending wasn't awkward for the next part just as the end of ESB was not awkward for the next part.
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  13. #103
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    Not gonna read the first 7 pages, just gonna jump straight to the titular topic.

    No. Not even slightly. None of the bad things in the sequel trilogy relate in any way to Rey's power level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Any claim there was Reylo in TFA is bullshit. Mind Rape =/= Romance. Johnson introduced that ****, because he had trouble connecting with the black male lead and an assertive female main character; dude has some accidental prejudices.

    Hell yes, there’s a major change of TFA was originally going to end with Luke floating the boulders vs TLJ’s opening - the former shows Luke has the Force already, and pretty much guarantees Rey’s going to get training, not be an audience surrogate for some bland, banal, boring bullshit of pretentious melodrama.

    Johnson got the longest development time of the ST, and somehow fumbled everything like it was his career.

    Abrams got handed episode IX after LFL had declared they wouldn’t accept Kylo as the main villain, but still wanted him taking away Finn’s spot, even though Kylo ain’t worth shot in that role, and it fucked over Rey’s story to do so.

    And that **** came from TLJ.

    Abrams got a job to respect the worst **** from TLJ, and hell yes, LFL almost certainly intentionally sabotaged Finn while unintentionally sabotaging Rey because Reylo is poisonous toxic **** as Rian Johnson defined it.

    Abrams has his crap, but Johnson contributed a greater amount to the ST with TLJ.
    There was defintely no set up for Reylo in TFA. That came from The Last Jedi. I think a bigger problem with Rey though is that it feels like it tore Luke down to build her up. However the main problems are 1. The meta-commentary of TLJ comes off as pretensious. 2. If Luke is going to be broken we need to have a satisfactory explination for it. TLJ did not deliver that for some of us myself included. 3. Trying to walk back on one of the movies was always going to backfire. 4. TROS tried to please both sides of the TLJ divide. That never works.

  15. #105
    Spectacular Member Ikari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    I just made a list in the previous post. Such as Kylo Ren instantly recognizing him and the defector Storm trooper after Jakku in which planet side Ren seemed to feel something in him as he chose not to shoot the villages.
    From the script: "Kylo Ren heads back toward his ship. But then he STOPS. Feels something. TURNS AND LOOKS AT OUR STORMTROOPER for a LONG MOMENT."
    Both Finn and Rey repeating "I can do this" when not together while escaping Tie Fighters on Jakku as if they were connected some how, Maybe by the force?
    From the script" "FINN Great. (reacts to seat) Whoa! I can do this, I can do this--...REY I can do this, I can do this-- Rey pulls the yoke:"
    Then hearing the screams of the victims of the destruction of Hosnian Prime.
    from the script: "Finn boards the Alien Freighter. The SOUND FROM THE SKY makes him turn back. He sees the PATH OF FIRE and his blood runs cold, his heart sinks. (in the movie that "sound from the sky' are screams)"
    First on your list was a Force thing by Kylo - he detected a feeling out of place amongst his troopers. Rest are just regular directing tricks. Might just as well interpret Han's "bad feeling" as Force sensitivity and ask, why that was not built upon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    JJ did and he just didn't fully commit. I will agree that his "mystery box" approach to movies is not fitting for a final installment but he again opened the door for Finn to be force.
    I think many people mistake 'lazy writing' for 'mystery boxes'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Ronin View Post
    The ending wasn't awkward for the next part just as the end of ESB was not awkward for the next part.
    Of course it was and I have explained why. ESB ending was 'open' - anyone who was to write the sequel could either continue directly from that point, or have a time jump where stuff can happen. Rebellion was battered but safe, not under immediate threat. Lando and Chewie flew off to do some stuff. Luke was awake and had a new hand. Han was frozen and was not going anywhere - Jabba might thaw him up, or just keep him frozen. TFA ending was 'closed', anyone who picked up had to continue from the exact moment movie ended: Rey handing the lightsaber to Luke. It's the only such transition between Star Wars movies. All others have time jumps from months to years.

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