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  1. #436
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    You may very well be right. At the least, you make a very good point and raise an excellent question. Obviously, the early Silver Age version of the Legion is not viable today. Even its heyday with Levitz and Giffen is dated in many respects. The work that DC has is deciding what makes the Legion the Legion and what can the aspects curtailing modern success be changed to?

    One can state, correctly, that space opera, a variety of characters, personalities, and powers with a galactic setting is prime material for a comic book series. But even if a pristine, premium set of tools is given to a carpenter who doesn't have plans or talent, those tools will go to waste. What do people think needs to stay and what needs to go?
    Regardless, I think there has to be some connection to its hey day. I'm all for new characters (the ones Levtiz introduced weren't very good), but the original history or a reasonable facsimile of it needs to exist.

  2. #437
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Wayne View Post
    Bendis is an outsider from Marvel whose strengths are mainly in street characters. He had no business on the Legion. DC shouldn't have even put him on Superman/Action.
    Yes. Superheroes aren't his thing - despite a 'successful' run on Avengers. Whenever I read his superhero stories, he comes across as a frustrated sitcom writer. Maybe he's just watched too many 'Friends' episodes.

  3. #438
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Wayne View Post
    Because the Legion ongoing sold horribly. DC literally had the people who created the modern GotG writing it plus people like Olivier Coipel on the art and the numbers were around 20k near the end. Given those conditions, it's no wonder they went for Threeboot.
    To be fair, the work Coipel did on Legion was nowhere near the quality he attained at Marvel. He was just starting out -- and his art was pretty rough on Legion. DnA's GotG did okay numbers -- but it was eventually cancelled. That said -- it was a quality product. The same cannot be said of Bendis's Guardians work.

  4. #439
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dataweaver View Post
    Here's a thought: Earth zero is no longer the center of the multiverse. So I probably clarify that by saying that it probably is still the center of the multiverse, it's just not the center of the Omniverse. But that's a nit pic, and I digress. In a few years, we are apparently going to be having another crisis. My Hope is it that prices will end with a quartet of worlds jointly serving as the center of the Omniverse: Doomsday Clock's Earth zero, Earth 1985, Earth 2, and Earth 52 (although I wouldn't mind new designations for them). For the Legion of superheroes, do something like Legion of three worlds, with each major version of the legion being the future of one of these co-prime Earths.

    Elaborating on this a bit:

    • the classic Legion would be the future of the Silver age Earth.
    • the Archie Legion would be the future of the post crisis earth.
    • the three-boot Legion would be the future of the Golden Age Earth.
    • the Bendis Legion would be the future of the New 52 Earth.

    What I'm thinking on that last part is it when the current Earth jumble breaks up into four coprime Earths in this upcoming crisis, the John Kent Superman ends up being part of the Earth 52 continuity. Meanwhile, the post crisis/pre Flashpoint Earth end up with a John Kent who never went to space with his grandfather and is still a year or two younger than Damian.
    Earth 0 is not even the centre of it's own multiverse anymore, the Elseworld and Earth Omega both are. Barry said Multiverse singular, Mr Terrific said "our earth, is no longer the centre of the multiverse". The other multiverses have their own main Earth or Earths.

  5. #440
    Ultimate Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    I think where the line is drawn differs for each reader by taste, but for me, the best Legion (and the best Star Trek) is where the 'vs.' is external threats to the generally upbeat future (from stuff like Darkseid or outsider factions like the Dark Circle or races like the Khund or Dominators or Gil'Dishpan), and not threats from their own government or collapses in their society or planets blowing up / the UP falling apart and the Legion having to fight on despite the breakdown of everything.

    I'm only one voice in the darkness, and my taste is entirely in my mouth, as the French saying goes, but I do not like zombie movies.

    A Legion set in a hopeless setting, all about gritty survival in the face of the universe turning to crap, may appeal absolutely to fans of that ouvre, but not me. I want my Legion to have something to fight *for,* and not just the grim memory of better times and a hope that some unreachable tomorrow / next issue might not suck as much as today / this one in my hand has.
    Yeah it's a mix of things.... WHY is the future bad? This is part of what killed Discovery with their "Burn" plotline. The reason it happened was just stupid. The idea of a catastrophe fragmenting the Federation isn't an inherently bad idea. But the rationale was stupid in TWO ways: one... it's some super-mutant alien from a race that doesn't normally have powers like this. Two: it doesn't make sense in-universe. The explanation was that the crazy fish alien caused most of the dilithium(a fictional element) in the galaxy to become dangerously unstable. This caused it to be unusable for use in matter/anti-matter reactors, and any reactors that had it would explode... catastrophically and destroyed all starships with one turned on. M-AM reactors were a common tech in Star Trek so sorta works. BUT... they're not the only one. Romulans in particular had quantum singularity manipulation tech that didn't use dilithium at all. also... interstellar travel didn't NEED M-AM reactors... they were just one of the easy ways. It's just one of those things where the explanation doesn't work in-universe.

    But yeah, it needs to have a rationale that makes sense internally, as well as not being insanely hopeless. And Disco doubled down on the hopelessness by stating that people had FAILED to come up with an alternative? Made ZERO sense.

    I think part of why LoSH had issues is that, like MC2 in Marvel, it was a possible future that limited present-day stories by showing aspects of what the future WILL be. Stuff like the Corps war in Green Lantern. That didn't happen in the past relative to the original LoSH setting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nomads1 View Post
    You can actually see the evolution of Coipel's art during the Legion Lost 12 issue maxi-series. It starts with the rough edged, sketchy art we'd already seen in the Legion of the Damned arc, and it ends with the more polished art we've come to enjoy and love. When he goes over to the Legion book, his art is more recognizable to the later Marvel fans. As it has happened pleanty of times in the past, a stint in the Legion rised the artist to super-star status. It Happened with Cockrum, with Grell, with Giffen, with Lightle, with Immonen, with Manapul, and so on... DC really should pay more attention to this book.

    Peace
    I think Coipel tried to put in too much detail, and sometimes.... well... kinda covered up his own work.

  6. #441
    insulin4all CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcekada View Post
    Regardless, I think there has to be some connection to its hey day. I'm all for new characters (the ones Levtiz introduced weren't very good), but the original history or a reasonable facsimile of it needs to exist.
    I agree. The Legion's past should remain fairly intact, even if many of the tales had outdated styles. Telling different modern stories can be done without invalidating the past. The key is to do it using modern (or newer) methods and tools.
    I’ll don the mask and wear the cape
    If I am super, how can I wait?

  7. #442
    Ultimate Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    I agree. The Legion's past should remain fairly intact, even if many of the tales had outdated styles. Telling different modern stories can be done without invalidating the past. The key is to do it using modern (or newer) methods and tools.
    Enh... I think the issue is that the overall status quo of the DCU changed with stuff like the Ring War, and several other major events. While this doesn't invalidate the entirety... it does crate holes that need fixed.

  8. #443
    insulin4all CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    Enh... I think the issue is that the overall status quo of the DCU changed with stuff like the Ring War, and several other major events. While this doesn't invalidate the entirety... it does crate holes that need fixed.
    The Legion being hundreds of years (the exact 1000 year thing is silly) is one of its greatest strengths when it come to dealing with changes in current DC Universe's status quos. Time and the existence of Earthwide disasters make most events in the present day not needing to affect the Legion's time. The Lanterns are changing with amazing frequency nowadays. Rao only knows what they'll look like in five years real time. About the only thing that might be tough to deal with is destroying a planet that the Legion uses. Even then, though, a new version can pop up in that much time considering the type of Universe we're dealing with.
    I’ll don the mask and wear the cape
    If I am super, how can I wait?

  9. #444
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    Go full Kang the conqueror with it


    Have the legion look different with each appearance and have the characters point out that no two versions of the legion are the same

    Endless franchise potential and comedic value


    You can even have a modern legion living in the present day with the 31st century legion still around at the same time

    Time travel allows for ridiculous and improbable possibilities


    Timey whammy dummy stuff
    Last edited by Vathlonian; 08-16-2021 at 07:53 PM.

  10. #445
    Ultimate Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vathlonian View Post
    Go full Kang the conqueror with it

    Have the legion look different with each appearance and have the characters point out that no two versions of the legion are the same

    Endless franchise potential and comedic value

    You can even have a modern legion living in the present day with the 31st century legion still around at the same time

    Time travel allows for ridiculous and improbable possibilities

    Timey whammy dummy stuff
    OOH! go the Terminator route and explain that each time the LoSH interacts with the past they change their own present. they may or may not return to their own time.. as they remember it

  11. #446
    Extraordinary Member Nomads1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vathlonian View Post
    Go full Kang the conqueror with it


    Have the legion look different with each appearance and have the characters point out that no two versions of the legion are the same

    Endless franchise potential and comedic value


    You can even have a modern legion living in the present day with the 31st century legion still around at the same time

    Time travel allows for ridiculous and improbable possibilities


    Timey whammy dummy stuff
    A cool idea. Plus, the Time Trapper is one of the Legion's greatest and most traditional foes. However, to pull this off, you'd need a writer with deep knowledge of continuity and Legion trivia. Not many of those still around.

    Peace

  12. #447
    Incredible Member Tugger's Avatar
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    Or set a title in an 'Elseworlds' type universe, where past continuity has no bearing and any character from any point in Legion history can appear. The possibilities are endless.

    Personally, I think Legion is finished as an ongoing series (but I would love somebody to prove me wrong).

    I'll just stick to the period that I really enjoy (80s Levitz / Giffen run).

  13. #448
    Extraordinary Member Zero Hunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcekada View Post
    Yes. Superheroes aren't his thing - despite a 'successful' run on Avengers. Whenever I read his superhero stories, he comes across as a frustrated sitcom writer. Maybe he's just watched too many 'Friends' episodes.
    I have argued this so many times. His Avengers run was propped up by the fact he was handed EVERY major hero Marvel had to offer. Given the free reign and popular characters he was given ANY half decent writer could have sold as well if not better than Bendis did.

  14. #449
    Extraordinary Member Zero Hunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vathlonian View Post
    Go full Kang the conqueror with it


    Have the legion look different with each appearance and have the characters point out that no two versions of the legion are the same

    Endless franchise potential and comedic value


    You can even have a modern legion living in the present day with the 31st century legion still around at the same time

    Time travel allows for ridiculous and improbable possibilities


    Timey whammy dummy stuff
    Sweet jesus NO. Just no to everything you wrote there.

  15. #450
    Ultimate Member j9ac9k's Avatar
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    Since there's a multiverse, just reintroduce a slightly updated version of the "original" team coming back in time for some storyline. (This is Superman's Legion, not Jon's - they each can have their own) Then hopefully follow them back to their timeline and we stay there. Keep the essential history of the Levitz era team, with the character relationships we know, but like anything else, the history and some backstories can we tweaked. For diversity use a lot of the characters who already exist like XS, Kid Q, Computer, Invisible Kid II, Tyroc, Dawnstar, bring in some new ones. Same with non-humanoids - Gates, Tellus, even a giant snake (who isn't Jeckie) and a few new ones.

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