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  1. #301

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    Quote Originally Posted by ducklord View Post
    I gotta say, as little interest as I have in the arguments over racebending in general, that disinterest increases by a factor of about a quadrillion-fold for discussions of Legion characters.

    They're an army of (mostly) alien humanoids, set in a distant century in which Terran racial politics is a thing of the distant past. The color of their skin is perhaps the least important thing about them. Getting persnickety about an RGB-change on their meaningless skin tone is just plain weird.

    Now, the travesty of Dawnstar's Bendis-era costume... THAT'S something worth breaking out the pitchforks over.
    Pretty much this.

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  2. #302
    Relaunched, not rebooted! SJNeal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    I dunno, he sure doesn't seem to have drawn on the LoSH as an influence *when writing the LoSH,* so it seems odd that his X-Men run would be inspired by them...
    Maybe it was his Legion that was inspired by the X-Men...? lol

    Either way he can't leave well enough alone, and scorching the earth always seems to be his first step.
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  3. #303
    Astonishing Member Nomads1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thor-Ul View Post
    I wouldn't say he was inspired by that run, he just take some ideas from that run and used them in his work.
    That pretty much describes Bendis technique. He get's an idea that was better done before, and craps it all over with his "edgy and snarky" take (lots and lots of air quotes there). I remember I once did a post where I could back track all the "inspiration" for his Avengers storylines.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    Pretty much this.

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  4. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by transformers03 View Post
    Morally, this is the stance that we should all take. The color of the skin shouldn't dictate what makes the character what they are. We live within a diverse world, and a future with aliens and other species should represent the progress we will hopefully make in a thousand years.
    Comics are a visual medium -- there are no actors portraying characters -- there is no sound. Everything depends on what your eyes can see. So when you are used to a favorite character looking a specific way, it becomes very difficult to accept huge changes to that character. That's why if Bendis/DC wanted to make the Legion more diverse -- it probably would have been better to introduce a new Legion -- even if some of the names (Lightning Lad, Cosmic Boy, etc.) remained the same.

    I'm all for more diversity -- and think Bendis actually dropped the ball a bit by not included non-humanoid characters. But I wish they had increased diversity via new members instead of race-bending existing (and in some cases -- beloved) characters. Appearance does matter --- in that regard. It's not a racist issue. Storm is one of my favorite characters -- but if she suddenly became white -- she wouldn't be the same character to me.

  5. #305
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    All I know is… Brainiac 5 needs to have green skin; and Shadow Lass/Umbra needs to have dark blue skin.

    Other than that, skin tone is a non-issue for me. I'm more concerned with them turning Legionnaires into snakes.
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  6. #306
    Fantastic Member ducklord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcekada View Post
    Comics are a visual medium -- there are no actors portraying characters -- there is no sound. Everything depends on what your eyes can see. So when you are used to a favorite character looking a specific way, it becomes very difficult to accept huge changes to that character. That's why if Bendis/DC wanted to make the Legion more diverse -- it probably would have been better to introduce a new Legion -- even if some of the names (Lightning Lad, Cosmic Boy, etc.) remained the same.

    I'm all for more diversity -- and think Bendis actually dropped the ball a bit by not included non-humanoid characters. But I wish they had increased diversity via new members instead of race-bending existing (and in some cases -- beloved) characters. Appearance does matter --- in that regard. It's not a racist issue. Storm is one of my favorite characters -- but if she suddenly became white -- she wouldn't be the same character to me.
    Racebending Storm to be white would be weird because she's a native African previously worshipped as a goddess... you'd have to do a *lot* of retconning of her origin to explain this character's whiteness. This goes for a LOT of Characters of Color - their race often plays a role in the essence of their character, so flipping them to white would mean complicating/unraveling something about the essence of who they are.

    This goes both ways, of course - the notion of a black Kal-El or an African-American Bruce Wayne pose similar background questions. A black Clark Kent, particularly if still raised in Kansas, has additional bits of "otherness" added to his origin that a white one doesn't. An African-American Bruce Wayne, if still the scion of a multi-generational gazillionaire family, is more of a curiosity than the usual rich white guy, and begs for an exploration of Who The Waynes Were, and How They Came to Be. Both interesting ideas, but there's no denying that changing their skin tones would mean more to their characters than an RGB slider.

    But in the Legion's case, it just doesn't matter. Hell, there's *barely* a smidgen of an excuse to explain why so many of them are so bloody human (Valor, but that was two reboots ago), let alone why they should be So Damn White. With the exception of Tyroc (whose origin is, politely, problematic), the races of the humanoid characters are about as pointless as can be. For cross-title continuity's sake, Brainiac 5 should probably always be green (it irks me that he most often is not on Supergirl), and Shadow Lass should probably remain blue (she has 21st century ancestors), but pretty much everyone else is fair game for the next passing retcon, imho. Hell, if Lyle Norg was black and Jacques Foccart was white, it wouldn't mean a thing (it'd be a silly change, but essentially meaningless).

    And, just to flip the script, I'll say that I'm not a big fan of race-changing Lightning Lad. Cosmic Boy would have been the better choice, in my opinion. Perpetuating the "Black Characters With Lightning Powers" trope into the 31st century seems like a really bad inside joke.

  7. #307
    Traveler of omniverses Thor-Ul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dataweaver View Post
    All I know is… Brainiac 5 needs to have green skin; and Shadow Lass/Umbra needs to have dark blue skin.

    Other than that, skin tone is a non-issue for me. I'm more concerned with them turning Legionnaires into snakes.
    Well, about that , I would say that DC learned its lesson. Remember what happened with Beast Boy in the new52? Just imagine Brainiac 5 with red skin.
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  8. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcekada View Post
    Comics are a visual medium -- there are no actors portraying characters -- there is no sound. Everything depends on what your eyes can see. So when you are used to a favorite character looking a specific way, it becomes very difficult to accept huge changes to that character. That's why if Bendis/DC wanted to make the Legion more diverse -- it probably would have been "better" to introduce a new Legion -- even if some of the names (Lightning Lad, Cosmic Boy, etc.) remained the same.

    I'm all for more diversity -- and think Bendis actually dropped the ball a bit by not included non-humanoid characters. But I wish they had increased diversity via new members instead of race-bending existing (and in some cases -- beloved) characters. Appearance does matter --- in that regard. It's not a racist issue. Storm is one of my favorite characters -- but if she suddenly became white -- she wouldn't be the same character to me.
    I think what you mean is "Less Controversial", not better.

    When the Legion first appeared, they were pretty much all white. While the last few decades tried to correct that oversight, the most iconic and most remember members were all still white. There was no changing that unless they did what they did with Bendis reboot. I even remember clearly saying to myself when they revealed some of the classic characters got a race-change - "That's a good idea. Change some races for some of these lesser-known DC characters will really help make their universe more diversify, something DC has been struggling with."

    Of course, my feelings betray me when it comes to Lightning Lad, and no matter how hard I try, I have difficulty accepting Garth's new appearance and racial identity. It's enough to sour my whole opinion on the reboot. But that is only because he was my favorite from the few Legion stories I have read, and it's like you said when you're used to characters looking a certain way, it's hard to view them anything but that way. However, I still believe morally we all should not care about racebending. In the end, unless their race or place of birth is important to their backstory, it really shouldn't matter.

    On that note, I do just want classic Legion back. I have nothing against the idea of what Bendis was doing, and I read reviews on his run that say it's pretty decent. It just feels far enough removed from classic Legion that it is hard to see it as anything like past stories. I keep mentioning it, but I don't think Bendis reboot was a success at all, which is why his teasing more Legion stuff doesn't make sense to me. I don't understand why DC would continue letting him continue his story, especially since now that everything's canon, how does Bendis' specific canon work with old-school Legion?

  9. #309
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    To be fair, there was a reason for Beast Boy's color change: supposedly, they were trying to connect him to the Red (visually, as well as power-wise) the same way that Swamp Thing is connected to the Green. But yeah; they appear to have learned their lesson on that point at least. Ducklord's summary above hit the nail on the head.

    If anything, I'd like to see more reds, oranges, yellows, greens, blues, and violets in the Legion's skin hues instead of having the vast majority of them be human skin tones. And/or go the Star Trek route of “rubber forehead aliens”, with more pointed ears, ridged brows, and so on. But where you're dealing with ones that look human, go ahead and diversify everyone; just remember that they're a thousand years in the future, where modern racial prejudices are literally ancient history. Lightning Lad may be black; but he isn't African-American, Jamaican, or Kenyan: he's Winathian. And that's it's own culture.

    Really, my biggest problem with what Bendis did with Lightning Lad is that (unless I'm misremembering) he didn't do the same thing to Light Lass: she's his twin sister.
    Last edited by Dataweaver; 06-07-2021 at 05:22 PM.
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  10. #310
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    Quote Originally Posted by ducklord View Post
    And, just to flip the script, I'll say that I'm not a big fan of race-changing Lightning Lad. Cosmic Boy would have been the better choice, in my opinion. Perpetuating the "Black Characters With Lightning Powers" trope into the 31st century seems like a really bad inside joke.
    As someone who has openly admitted to having issues accepting Garth being black, unable to even read Bendis' run because of that (I know, I know, I'm a horrible person), I would argue that there multiple white people who have fire powers in the Marvel Universe. We have the Human Torch, Pyro, Rusty, Magma, Firestar, and more I'm probably forgetting. There is nothing wrong with multiple Black men sharing the same lightning powers. It's only noticeable because there still a disproportionate amount of Black superheroes than White Superheroes, so it's more noticeable when Static, Black Lightning (with Fam), and now Lightning Lad have the same powers.

  11. #311
    Astonishing Member Overhazard's Avatar
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    The racebending doesn't bother me so much. I've wanted the legion to be more diverse for a long time, I just wish Bendis remembered that there are already legionnaires of color. Bendis comes up with good ideas, but his execution leaves a lot to be desired, his writing's been like that for a while now, I think he needs a co-writer or an editor to reign him in a little. I don't hate him or anything like that, I just think that he was a bad choice for this book. Kudos to him for going outside of his comfort zone, but the Legion's just too far out of his wheelhouse. He doesn't do cosmic books well, and he can't write a team larger than 10 people.

  12. #312
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by transformers03 View Post
    On that note, I do just want classic Legion back. I have nothing against the idea of what Bendis was doing, and I read reviews on his run that say it's pretty decent. It just feels far enough removed from classic Legion that it is hard to see it as anything like past stories. I keep mentioning it, but I don't think Bendis reboot was a success at all, which is why his teasing more Legion stuff doesn't make sense to me. I don't understand why DC would continue letting him continue his story, especially since now that everything's canon, how does Bendis' specific canon work with old-school Legion?
    Legion of Three Worlds. There's a Multiverse, and it has propagated into the future. Every iteration of the Legion exists somewhere in that future Multiverse, and more besides. Don't try to smash all of the different Legion continuities together into a single timeline; let them coexist as separate universes.
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  13. #313
    Astonishing Member Factor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dataweaver View Post
    Legion of Three Worlds. There's a Multiverse, and it has propagated into the future. Every iteration of the Legion exists somewhere in that future Multiverse, and more besides. Don't try to smash all of the different Legion continuities together into a single timeline; let them coexist as separate universes.
    Agreed. The Bendis version should be the Legion of the Future State universe.
    I'd explain that at the time they visited Jon for the first time, since events were leading up to Future State, the Bendis team really were the future of the regular DCU.
    But then Death Metal happened and its changes to the present caused a butterfly effect that reinstated the team reintroduced by Johns as the future of the DCU.
    Levitz' last run was mediocre, but that was still the most viable team going forward. They have some of the Legion's greatest stories in their history but there were still many directions a new writer could explore.

  14. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by Factor View Post
    Agreed. The Bendis version should be the Legion of the Future State universe.
    I'd explain that at the time they visited Jon for the first time, since events were leading up to Future State, the Bendis team really were the future of the regular DCU.
    But then Death Metal happened and its changes to the present caused a butterfly effect that reinstated the team reintroduced by Johns as the future of the DCU.
    Levitz' last run was mediocre, but that was still the most viable team going forward. They have some of the Legion's greatest stories in their history but there were still many directions a new writer could explore.
    I don't care for the Bendis Legion at all but I prefer Johns' Legion iteration over Levitz'.

  15. #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by Factor View Post
    Agreed. The Bendis version should be the Legion of the Future State universe.
    I'd explain that at the time they visited Jon for the first time, since events were leading up to Future State, the Bendis team really were the future of the regular DCU.
    But then Death Metal happened and its changes to the present caused a butterfly effect that reinstated the team reintroduced by Johns as the future of the DCU.
    Levitz' last run was mediocre, but that was still the most viable team going forward. They have some of the Legion's greatest stories in their history but there were still many directions a new writer could explore.
    I think they will establish Bendis' Legion as a different future as part of the multiverse, and it makes the most sense for it to be the Future State future. But with Bendis' teasing, it feels like he is going to continue on with his story. In fairness, he could just create a story to establish his Legion is part of an alternate universe now, which would actually kind of suck for him considering all the hard work he put into creating it. Though that speculating on my part, DC did give Bendis a big push with his Legion run. A shiny one-shot, an arc in his Superman comics, and literally the best artists in the business helping him construct the story. Yet in the end, the main discourse of his run is about how much we want classic Legion back.

    It's kind of interesting how DC kind of seemed to learn its lessons from the New 52 with Rebirth and now Infinite Frontier, in the sense that too much change can be detrimental to the comics. But then they just gave Bendis the keys to completely reinvigorate the Legion by scratch pretty much. On one hand, the Legion was probably a brand that needed to be revitalized the most, and new blood was probably was for the best. However, Bendis may have gone too far with some of his changes. Not only that, but the Legion also tied into the whole Jon storyline, which continues to puzzle me why DC still wants to make it work. Aging Jon up is probably the worse decision DC has done, and I don't understand why they feel the need to keep it. I don't care if his upcoming book is being made by top-tier talent, it's a premise I hate and I want it gone.

    That's my fear with anything new Legion-related showing up in the near future. Just like grown-up Jon, I'm afraid DC would just rather force Bendis' Legion in future comics. DC really did invest heavily with Bendis' Legion, and they may want to get their money's worth with how much they were pushing it. My hope that since DC and Bendis were able to recognize how stupid of name Drake was during his Young Justice, they may realize that it would probably be best for the Legion Brand if they just bring in more classic elements. I could see them making a compromise, like mixing Bendis Legion with other Legions. Heck, they could just rebrand the Legion as the future version of the Justice Incarnate and have members of the many different Legions throughout the multiverse be part of the team.

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