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  1. #331
    Spectacular Member oneveryfineday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by transformers03 View Post
    Though they still have Jon be a grown-up, and I think that is universally not liked. Though again, again, they are releasing a new Super Sons mini, almost as if they are aware of the popularity of Jon and Damian, yet refuse to make it the main canon again.
    Itís only a hunch, but with PKJ saying that it was possible to have a Super Sons book with Jon and Damian as they currently are and Williamson saying there was stuff in the works for the two characters, I suspect that there will finally be a main canon Super Sons book again (probably after Jonís status quo is stabilized in his solo).

  2. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneveryfineday View Post
    It’s only a hunch, but with PKJ saying that it was possible to have a Super Sons book with Jon and Damian as they currently are and Williamson saying there was stuff in the works for the two characters, I suspect that there will finally be a main canon Super Sons book again (probably after Jon’s status quo is stabilized in his solo).
    As somebody who liked Jon and Super Sons I very much disagree with the assertion a Super Sons book would work with aged up Jon that we have. I certainly don't see myself being able to accept the aged up Jon that we got from Bendis. I am very much hoping that Jon's Superman series fails and it's failure results in the age up being undone.

  3. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    Yah, I can't wait to have outdated old boring LoSH makes a return. I'm sure it'll sells like hotcakes for such a long time. It won't at all alienate all possible new readers with its dated looks, almost all-white caste, outdated ideas and concepts and such a fucking long history that it'll be mandatory to go and read untold volumes of super old comics to even start to get what's happening.

    Jeesh.
    I don't mind if you have stuff you like, why do you not want me to have stuff I like? Is it hurting you to know that out there, someone else might be happy?

    I don't get the hate.

  4. #334

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Stone View Post
    I'm right there with you.

    I'm sure Bendis is doing the Legion because he loved them (or says he did, anyway), or is afraid of being typecast as the go-to guy for Tarantino/Sopranos styles of comics.
    But he has a strength- He's really, really good with street level heroes and building a criminal world around them.
    He needs to stop fighting that and embrace it.

    Whenever I thought of urban street-level heroes, I would usually think of DC first, before Marvel.
    Granted, Dennis O'Neil did raise the bar for Daredevil, Power Man/Iron Fist, Moon Knight and Spider-Woman in the '80s.
    But Marvel's characters always seem to have a power edge.
    DC's Black Lightning and Black Canary would fit the mold of typical Marvel street characters. Street fighting abilities with a 'gimmick' power to visualize them or set them apart.
    DC, however, also has Batman, Robin, Batgirl, Nightwing, Batwoman, Green Arrow, Question, Huntress, Manhunter, Onyx, Katana, Shiva, Red Arrow/Arsenal, Bronze Tiger, Richard Dragon, Wildcat and a few I'm probably forgetting.

    The Bendis Legion just doesn't connect narratively with the original. So there is no real reason for a Legion fan to read it.
    It's basically a long-running Elseworlds.
    I agree, Bendis appears to be a strong at writing Urban street heroes. I really enjoyed Event Leviathan because of his excellent portrayal of the Question (Vic)

    After the Legion overhaul, I have to say, I would be a little nervous of him taking over any of my beloved heroes or franchises (Arrow family ect) for fear of radical changes.

    They pretty much wiped the board of the old Legion, and as you say, it is therefore very much a long running Elseworlds, so I have no plans to read or support the Legion in its current incarnation.

  5. #335
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    I don't mind if you have stuff you like, why do you not want me to have stuff I like? Is it hurting you to know that out there, someone else might be happy?

    I don't get the hate.
    Why should I give up book(s) I like just so old timers could get more of something they like which has failed for decades now to connect with new readers. What books will be killed off so you can have the JSA or the original LoSH ? Or any other book of the same kind ?

    I really enjoyed Bendis Legion. Why should I lose it so you can have the same old, stale, stories ? You have already decades of published stuff about the old Legion, why can't it be enough ?

  6. #336
    Astonishing Member Factor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    Yah, I can't wait to have outdated old boring LoSH makes a return. I'm sure it'll sells like hotcakes for such a long time. It won't at all alienate all possible new readers with its dated looks, almost all-white caste, outdated ideas and concepts and such a fucking long history that it'll be mandatory to go and read untold volumes of super old comics to even start to get what's happening.

    Jeesh.
    Uhm, why would their long history make it mandatory for new readers to read all their past tales? That makes no sense. All popular DC franchises have long histories. Doesn't mean one would have to become an expert on their continuities to buy the new Batman, Wonder Woman or Flash comics. Why is a long history a problem for LOSH when other properties can have fresh new tales without being completely rebooted every time a new writer comes in?
    Just because *you* don't care for the Legions of the past, doesn't mean there's something inherently wrong with them that would call for a complete do over.
    I also find it strange how you seem to ignore that the previous LOSH actually sold pretty well for quite some time even in a period where Levitz's writing was at its worse. The series lasted for several issues and managed to keep a spin-off Adventure Comics run for longer than Bendis' series lasted. And the regular book was only canceled because DC thought that a JL spin-off in the same time period would sell better. Spoilers: It didn't.

    I do agree that more diversity is a good thing from the new incarnation, but that's probably the only thing. And even then it's kind of debatable, because many of the original POC characters got ignored in the relaunch or barely got any development.

    All the previous team really needed was a new writer with a unique vision that actually explored new takes on the team instead of being stuck in the past. Ironically, Bendis doing a Darkness Saga rehash is the opposite of what the Legion needs.

    About the outdated looks, I disagree Gary Frank's redesigns were so outdated, but cosmetical changes don't justify a reboot even if they were as bad as you say. Just get someone good to design new costumes and introduce more diverse members. It should be easier than start the whole thing from scratch only to retell the same stories under a new coat of paint.

  7. #337
    Traveler of omniverses Thor-Ul's Avatar
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    Sutekh, Factor, don't argue with Korath. He is a fan of Bendis. When (if) Bendis leave the Legion (instead this uncertain state than it is now) Korath will follow him. I doubt he will read the Bendis reboot if DC would be announcing a new creative team.
    Just wait.
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  8. #338
    Extraordinary Member Zero Hunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    Why should I give up book(s) I like just so old timers could get more of something they like which has failed for decades now to connect with new readers. What books will be killed off so you can have the JSA or the original LoSH ? Or any other book of the same kind ?

    I really enjoyed Bendis Legion. Why should I lose it so you can have the same old, stale, stories ? You have already decades of published stuff about the old Legion, why can't it be enough ?
    Because no one but Bendis fanboys are reading this new version of the book. It is not selling any better than any of the recent past versions. DC tried this exact same thing with Mark Waid letting him start over from scratch and it had the exact same result in no one but Waid fans liked the book. You like Bendis we get that, but your a very small minority. Bendis has always struggled on team books and especially on sci-fi heavy team books, but DC didn't care and just gave him the keys to the house and said do what you want.

  9. #339
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero Hunter View Post
    Because no one but Bendis fanboys are reading this new version of the book. It is not selling any better than any of the recent past versions. DC tried this exact same thing with Mark Waid letting him start over from scratch and it had the exact same result in no one but Waid fans liked the book. You like Bendis we get that, but your a very small minority. Bendis has always struggled on team books and especially on sci-fi heavy team books, but DC didn't care and just gave him the keys to the house and said do what you want.
    And they did so because the classical Legion of Super-heroes was a failed IP by that point. It won't sell like it did in the past, it won't ever return to that, and insetad it'll keep degrading into irrelevance if they clung to it.

    I mean, you calssical fans are even out there attacking Dawnstar's current appearance as racist when it isn't more than her Native Striper with wings look was... it makes your other arguments rather weak, if you ask me.

  10. #340
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    Just curious: do you think that Bendis would like you attacking fans of the previous versions of the Legion? He doesn't strike me as being that petty.
    Rogue wears rouge.
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  11. #341
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dataweaver View Post
    Just curious: do you think that Bendis would like you attacking fans of the previous versions of the Legion? He doesn't strike me as being that petty.
    If said fans weren't always attacking new takes/books, I'd have some misgiving doing so.

    But considering the amount of comments I'v eread which amounted to "I won't read new book X because JSA/LOSH isn't on the shelves this instant" ?

    I honestly don't care about what Bendis would like me to do or what fans of older takes of the Legion think about it.

    Don't come crying about me wanting to destroy the things you love when you can't even be bothered to give achance to the things I find interesting.

  12. #342

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    Comic Book history shows us that classic rarely lasts. Some versions, of course, last longer than others. In many cases, chnages to a property have increased their popularity and quality. All New, All Different X-Men and Moore's Swamp Thing are among the finest examples. But even with failed or dropped new versions, the original rarely returns untouched or unchanged. Ideally we see some aspects of a new version maintained as they were successful.

    My GUESS is that without Bendis, this version of Legion never would have seen print. It was very Jon Kent heavy to blend into Bendis' Superman franchise. Was Jon a big selling point for this? I think so. Fans of the Levitz/Giffen days (me included in that group) loved that extraordinary and wonderful period. But it came and went to be replaced with Giffen's Five Years Later. Reaction was mixed, but I loved it.

    Levitz/Giffen can be aped, but even if it's the same, the rest of comicdom has outgrown those days. Sure there was an awful lot from that time that should be kept, but freshness is needed. And it may not work. Thus is comic life where there are no certainties. But we can also say the same of Bendis' version. There was a lot I liked about it and a lot I didn't. Interlac and the look of the book were wonderful and made me feel I was reading a story of the future. But there was way too much 21st century stuff. There should be no umbilical cord between the Legion and now. If stories can't be told without relying on thousand year old story elements and characters, the book ain't worth producing.

    Right now, I have no idea what, if anything, DC is planning regarding the future of the Legion. As DC is STILL in the same CRISIS/Multiversal shifting mode they've been in since Rebirth in 2015, I'd rather see the dust settle and DC go a few months without a history changing event. Is that still Bendis? I don't know. There have been too many rumors and plan switching to have any real idea.
    Why yes, I do enjoy hearing myself talk. it is very kind of you to notice>

  13. #343
    Traveler of omniverses Thor-Ul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    Comic Book history shows us that classic rarely lasts. Some versions, of course, last longer than others. In many cases, chnages to a property have increased their popularity and quality. All New, All Different X-Men and Moore's Swamp Thing are among the finest examples. But even with failed or dropped new versions, the original rarely returns untouched or unchanged. Ideally we see some aspects of a new version maintained as they were successful.
    Good argument. Even Jack Kirby said than from time to time characters and concepts should be revisited and reinvented to adapt to their contemporary elements. But even in the most radical change you do, you have to keep certain familiarity or conection to the previous iteration. Change is inevitable and either you change it step by step (creating new uniforms, creating new members and enemies, new concepts and worlds) or you change it redically and invent something new, keeping only the brand or a reboot rehashing the better stories from the original concept .

    My GUESS is that without Bendis, this version of Legion never would have seen print. It was very Jon Kent heavy to blend into Bendis' Superman franchise. Was Jon a big selling point for this? I think so. Fans of the Levitz/Giffen days (me included in that group) loved that extraordinary and wonderful period. But it came and went to be replaced with Giffen's Five Years Later. Reaction was mixed, but I loved it.
    I think than the Jon who sells more was the one on Supersons, not the one than Bendis aged, that was something really rejected by fans. Maybe DC is waiting to see how Tom King' Son of Kal-El sells before relaunch Bendis' Legion, again with teen Jon as member. That would be my guess.

    Levitz/Giffen can be aped, but even if it's the same, the rest of comicdom has outgrown those days. Sure there was an awful lot from that time that should be kept, but freshness is needed. And it may not work. Thus is comic life where there are no certainties. But we can also say the same of Bendis' version. There was a lot I liked about it and a lot I didn't. Interlac and the look of the book were wonderful and made me feel I was reading a story of the future. But there was way too much 21st century stuff. There should be no umbilical cord between the Legion and now. If stories can't be told without relying on thousand year old story elements and characters, the book ain't worth producing.
    I don't think than anybody who miss the Levitz/Giffen Legion is asking to return to that style of storytelling, to that topics or to that authors. I think most miss the history and background and context of the characters and their grow up and see them how they developt under a new pen. The failure of the post Three worlds Legion it was return to Levitz, something I opposed then.

    Right now, I have no idea what, if anything, DC is planning regarding the future of the Legion. As DC is STILL in the same CRISIS/Multiversal shifting mode they've been in since Rebirth in 2015, I'd rather see the dust settle and DC go a few months without a history changing event. Is that still Bendis? I don't know. There have been too many rumors and plan switching to have any real idea.
    Neither knows a heck about what is doing DC, there is no a clear boss even. Who is the boss right now. Lee? Who gives the green light, stablises directions, approves storylines?
    And yes, there has been to many directions changes lately, but what rumours do you talk about?
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  14. #344

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thor-Ul View Post
    I think than the Jon who sells more was the one on Supersons, not the one than Bendis aged, that was something really rejected by fans. Maybe DC is waiting to see how Tom King' Son of Kal-El sells before relaunch Bendis' Legion, again with teen Jon as member. That would be my guess.
    In Jon selling the book I was talking more about a Jon Legion vs. a non-Jon Legion. I've paid no attention to the Superman franchise and have no idea how the Super Sons book is doing. I will add that despite the newness of the book, the idea goes way back to decades old stories.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thor-Ul View Post
    Neither knows a heck about what is doing DC, there is no a clear boss even. Who is the boss right now. Lee? Who gives the green light, stablises directions, approves storylines? And yes, there has been to many directions changes lately, but what rumours do you talk about?
    Nothing even worth repeating as what I've heard is local and comic shop counter chatting. My point is I've seen very little credible news even regarding a continuation or not.
    Why yes, I do enjoy hearing myself talk. it is very kind of you to notice>

  15. #345

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero Hunter View Post
    Because no one but Bendis fanboys are reading this new version of the book. It is not selling any better than any of the recent past versions. DC tried this exact same thing with Mark Waid letting him start over from scratch and it had the exact same result in no one but Waid fans liked the book. You like Bendis we get that, but your a very small minority. Bendis has always struggled on team books and especially on sci-fi heavy team books, but DC didn't care and just gave him the keys to the house and said do what you want.
    I think that's about right. It's not just fans from the 80's or 90's that don't like the new Legion, from what I've seen it's people who started collecting the run 10 years or so ago, who tell me they can't stand the new reboot.

    In my opinion, the reboot was too dramatic, it cleaned the slate to the point it alienated all existing fans. I'm all for making changes through the decades (The JSA) is a good example, but this reboot went way too far.

    It reminds me of the first time I quite the Legion. (After zero hour I think, not sure) they wiped out the Levitz/Giffen timeline, and rebooted them all as little teenagers. I felt totally alienated, and quite the Legion right then and there.



    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    And they did so because the classical Legion of Super-heroes was a failed IP by that point. It won't sell like it did in the past, it won't ever return to that, and insetad it'll keep degrading into irrelevance if they clung to it.

    I mean, you calssical fans are even out there attacking Dawnstar's current appearance as racist when it isn't more than her Native Striper with wings look was... it makes your other arguments rather weak, if you ask me.
    I guess because I encountered Dawnstar's original costume when I was about 7 years old, I never thought of it that way. To me it just looked like a real cool costume, and as a result, she became one of my favourite superheroes....but they did make amendments to it through the decades by getting rid of the provocative cut, which is fine by me.

    People are stating the new Dawnstar costume looked racist because no modern Native Americans dress that way. Her costume would be akin to having a Female Chinese superhero dressed up in a Quin dynasty robe....not suitable.

    That being said, I'm glad you enjoyed the book, I gave Bendis's Legion about 7 issues, and than dropped it, not for me.

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