The Future of Legion of Super Heroes Franchise & The Bendis Problem

[Lee Stone]

I agree that Bendis had the power to bring The Legion back to heights not seen since the ‘70s and ‘80s, and he fumbled it by doing a reboot.

Legion fans have been around the reboot block a few times.
Another one is really a waste of talent.

I know that I, personally, wouldn’t even bother with reading another reboot.
Better to just go back and re-read the classics.

[Killerbee911]

There is a certain level of fan ego to think that LosH should be doing better, It is a middle of the pack book. That is middle of the pack numbers and an actual perspective for a book without a "star" character it is pretty good numbers. I don't have the answers for what needs to happen to series overall but I can show what books is about the median in comics today It would be Flash and Wonder woman at about range 30,000 to 38,000 without canceling and steadily keeping those numbers.This thread is a couple of months early for many reason.

I like the concept of LoSH but I am not afraid to say the simple thing, This book has no Wolverine, even worse this book has no Cyclops,Jean Grey or Storm. Why should this concept being doing better without characters who could sell a project by themselves within the comic community? Let us keep it real if every DC team book on the market was reduced to one or two characters basically trimming down the waste in comics and leaving books to focus the most import and interesting characters and we have Titans, Teen Titans,Young Justice, The Terrifics, Justice League Dark, Suicide Squad,Justice League,Batman and the outsiders and LoSH. Which book is getting pick up last from most people? LoSH would be one of the last ones if not the last one. I am betting Black Lighting, John Constantine,Harley Quinn,and Mr Terrific to carry a concept better than anyone from LoSH.

Some fans have to deal with fact LosH is a small niche concept, LoSH is not new Mutants and even worse New Mutants has a clear star now in Magik to solidify it. I am not going to back forth on this I will just invite people to watch the Eternals over the next couple of months it is best way to bring this point home Eternals is going to have certified superstar creative team in Kierion Gillen and Esad Ribić , movie at some in the year and probably a decent advertising and in universe comic push by Marvel. And I am 100% certain by issue 8 or 9 that Eternals will have numbers in 30,000 and there will be a clear trend down.

The first thing in talking about this topic is understanding what a LoSH book should do in numbers to today AND DC can't even keep Titans,Teen Titan and Young Justice books afloat but the OP thinks LoSH should be doing Wonder Woman numbers. Bendis might not be the right guy and his approach flawed to concept but it is way to early for implying it is a failure. What is realistic success for this book on the market?

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I have been enjoying Bendis's Legion more than any other incarnation of the LSH so far, but even I'm confounded by why Bendis went with yet another reboot when his original plan explicitly wasn't a reboot, but rather set in the 32nd Century so as not to invalidate any of the prior versions of the Legion. Frankly, there's nothing I've seen in Bendis & Sook's LSH that requires it to be a reboot. The characters are different enough from their previous versions that you could simply say the current team is inspired by the LSH of a century earlier, in addition to the heroes of the 20th & 21st Centuries, and leave it at that.

It feels like there was a lot of editorial and creative shenanigans behind the scenes that may have torpedoed this book before it even launched. As with many of the stuff that went down at DC between 2016 and 2020, I think it'll be years before we find out what actually happened here...

[Korath]

Yes, yes, it's all Bendis' fault.

If only he had taken back the old designs, with the old continuity everything would be grandiose and incredible. Never mind that a lot of new readers would have learned that they needed to read comics from back in the fifties, would be presented with very dated designs and would have justifiably chaffed at the grotesque idea that if they wanted to "get it" they needed to suffer through dozens if not hundreds of comics far older than they to perhaps start to read the newly released volume.

Sure, Bendis' book wasn't as great as it could have been. But I find that what peoples call flaws in his writing are extremely exaggerated and that he did a great job at DC, when he hadn't to deal with continuity shenaningans and precisely the type of demands you are making (looking at you, Young Justice).

[kurenai24]

Man, the people who hate Bendis are always looking for an excuse to dunk on him.

A lot of books got stealth cancelled or are in limbo until the next wave of announcements.

Legion floats in Hawkman territory now; stalwart title to hardcore fans that doesn't really draw in the casual audience. They're essentially DC's X-Men (I know the Doom Patrol was the original comparison but it's evolved into something too different to consider in this comparison) in the future, thus having no chance of really crossing over with the other characters people like and being so far means that all the big event books have no impact on it. So you just have this side book that plugs along-- Like Batman Beyond. And that has a TV show and BATMAN behind it. Doesn't exactly blow up the charts.

Legion's never going to be a must-buy for long short of someone like Hickman taking over it and at that point you're asking "DC, why can't you make the hail mary?" Because Marvel offered him X-Men over Legion. That's what it comes down to. I love Hawkman. I think the Legion is cool, but tell me objectively why they need to get Legion of Super-Heroes working before stuff like Supergirl, Batgirl, Wonder Woman and many other bigger IP are struggling to keep books or rise above 35,000 (and that's Wonder Woman FFS). Spoiler: They don't. Like Hawkman, which just wrapped up a great run, there are bigger fish to fry at DC and that unfortunately means fan favorites like The Legion will not be getting the big talent unless those guys walk through the door saying "I want Legion" and have enough of a name to get it made. Bendis, for good or ill, is known for USM, Daredevil and having the ability to spin new characters into IP that transcend into more profitable media (Jessica Jones, Miles Morales, Naomi, etc). Bendis, despite how much people **** on the dude, gives the suits what they want. You need someone of that level, like Donny Cates or some such, to demand Legion to see them break the glass sales ceiling month after month.

I do think it's disingenuous to say Bendis (and Sook) didn't work hard on this book, though. Just issues 8-9 alone and Bendis coraling all those artists (he was the driving force for those) as well as the world building elements they introduce show they really shot high for this one. If it missed for you, that's perfectly fine and his poor attention to detail/weak editing have caught numerous mistakes in the book. It ain't perfect, but portraying this book as some cynical half-assed job is just bold-faced false.

You hit the nail on the head, this is starting to remind me of the marvel side of this forum.

We know books are coming out in April so OP could have waited but OP wanted an active thread and there is no quicker way to do that than inviting the Bendis hatedom to come together.

In any case if the LoS book is cancelled then that means they brought it back for Jon to be a part of and not b/c DC cared to bring it back, it's not like LoS is popular enough for DC to be like "we have to bring it back", there's gonna be a purpose to it and I guess now there's no purpose.

[Riv86672]

Yes, yes, it's all Bendis' fault.

If only he had taken back the old designs, with the old continuity everything would be grandiose and incredible. Never mind that a lot of new readers would have learned that they needed to read comics from back in the fifties, would be presented with very dated designs and would have justifiably chaffed at the grotesque idea that if they wanted to "get it" they needed to suffer through dozens if not hundreds of comics far older than they to perhaps start to read the newly released volume.

Sure, Bendis' book wasn't as great as it could have been. But I find that what peoples call flaws in his writing are extremely exaggerated and that he did a great job at DC, when he hadn't to deal with continuity shenaningans and precisely the type of demands you are making (looking at you, Young Justice).

You hit the nail on the head, this is starting to remind me of the marvel side of this forum.

We know books are coming out in April so OP could have waited but OP wanted an active thread and there is no quicker way to do that than inviting the Bendis hatedom to come together.

In any case if the LoS book is cancelled then that means they brought it back for Jon to be a part of and not b/c DC cared to bring it back, it's not like LoS is popular enough for DC to be like "we have to bring it back", there's gonna be a purpose to it and I guess now there's no purpose.

The Legion comes w. a lot of baggage, and not everyone was going to be happy no matter what was done or who did it.

I like that Bendis tried something different.

EDIT
I like that he cared enough to try something different.

[ohfellow]

There is a certain level of fan ego to think that LosH should be doing better, It is a middle of the pack book. That is middle of the pack numbers and an actual perspective for a book without a "star" character it is pretty good numbers. I don't have the answers for what needs to happen to series overall but I can show what books is about the median in comics today It would be Flash and Wonder woman at about range 30,000 to 38,000 without canceling and steadily keeping those numbers.This thread is a couple of months early for many reason.

I agree that it's got "middle of the pack numbers" and don't understand what information is the source of the idea that Legion has been in "cancel territory." Flash and Wonder Woman, and Catwoman, are exactly the right examples.

Looking back at February, for instance, pre-pandemic.

Legion #4 sold 30K, above several ongoing books, and in the top 50 for that month. It sold the same number in March. After that, sales numbers get hard to track. But you can still sort by relative sales, and Legion continued to rank at around the same spot relative to other DC titles. It has continued to rank around the same as Flash, Wonder Woman and Catwoman. Sometimes better.

I'm pretty sure that no book selling above these numbers was cancelled.

Flash 29K
Wonder Woman 26K
Catwoman 24K

Below this, almost all were cancelled, or, in the case of some mini-series, ended. Some were forced to conclude digital-only. Some will be back but retooled. Alone among these, until we learn about the fate of Aquaman, Nightwing will continue immediately, but DC may have confidence it will improve now that Dick has his memory back, and/or thinks adding Batgirl to it will boost the overall readership.

One of the biggest surprises to me is that Batman vs. Ra's Al Ghul was just put back on the schedule.

The cancellations start with Shazam at 22K, and run down to Gen Lock at 3K.

That said, as I wrote in the Legion Appreciation thread, I do fear it HAS been cancelled. But I don't know why it would have been.

Perhaps DC does a cost-accounting that includes the cost of the creative team, and has a higher expectation for a Bendis book because he is (probably) paid more. So maybe it's just that they want him spending his time on a higher selling book. Maybe it will return with a new creative team.

[sifighter]

I would wait and see what happens with Future State and Infinite Frontier, I mean they have a future state issue so I’m assuming that if they were just gone they wouldn’t even get an issue. Besides from the Williamson interview on infinite frontier it’s clear that more series or stories are coming, so let’s just wait and see what happens.

[HandofPrometheus]

There was no reason to reboot. DC should've nipped that idea before it went on the page.

[j9ac9k]

There was no reason to reboot. DC should've nipped that idea before it went on the page.

There were plenty of reasons from DC's standpoint. They already tried the retroboot under Johns, they launched two series that failed, it limits what you can do with the future, that lineup was very white, etc.... and I'm a huge fan of the LSH and the traditional team. I can see why they had reasons to reboot even if I want in my heart for that old team to continue and thrive.

[caj]

I'll be honest, I'm not sure what it will take to get the Legion back on track. I haven't read Bendis' new Legion because I was turned off by everything I had seen (and HAVE seen) about it.

I know that I want the REAL Legion back with it's REAL history. But maybe that's just me.

I personally don't care about the costumes as long as they look good. I want the couples I'm used to (I wouldn't want a Superman without him being in love with Lois Lane), especially Lightning Lad and Saturn Girl.

Really all I want is for the characters to behave and sound like the characters I've loved for decades. If there's a good writer that can do that, find him/her and put them to work on a Legion book.

[Konja7]

I agree that it's got "middle of the pack numbers" and don't understand what information is the source of the idea that Legion has been in "cancel territory." Flash and Wonder Woman, and Catwoman, are exactly the right examples.

Looking back at February, for instance, pre-pandemic.

Legion #4 sold 30K, above several ongoing books, and in the top 50 for that month. It sold the same number in March. After that, sales numbers get hard to track. But you can still sort by relative sales, and Legion continued to rank at around the same spot relative to other DC titles. It has continued to rank around the same as Flash, Wonder Woman and Catwoman. Sometimes better.

I'm pretty sure that no book selling above these numbers was cancelled.

Flash 29K
Wonder Woman 26K
Catwoman 24K

Below this, almost all were cancelled, or, in the case of some mini-series, ended. Some were forced to conclude digital-only. Some will be back but retooled. Alone among these, until we learn about the fate of Aquaman, Nightwing will continue immediately, but DC may have confidence it will improve now that Dick has his memory back, and/or thinks adding Batgirl to it will boost the overall readership.

One of the biggest surprises to me is that Batman vs. Ra's Al Ghul was just put back on the schedule.

The cancellations start with Shazam at 22K, and run down to Gen Lock at 3K.

That said, as I wrote in the Legion Appreciation thread, I do fear it HAS been cancelled. But I don't know why it would have been.

Perhaps DC does a cost-accounting that includes the cost of the creative team, and has a higher expectation for a Bendis book because he is (probably) paid more. So maybe it's just that they want him spending his time on a higher selling book. Maybe it will return with a new creative team.

The thing is above 30K at Issue 4 isn't good, because sales often continue to fall after that.

Young Justice #4 was also above 30K, but it falls under that in Issue 5. And the fall only continue.

[Stick Figure]

I guess I was fortunate to come to the Legion with no baggage. I’d seen one issue from the 70’s with some dreadful costumes but that was it. I love this series! This was some of the best work Bendis had done in years. Admittedly I’m a huge fan of his work but I’ll admit he’d gotten stale at Marvel. Legion is fun to me. It’s fresh. I LOVE the costume designs. I’ve seen some of the old costumes and can’t imagine anyone wants more of that. More than anything, this book felt like it took place in the future and actually featured young people. Those are two things writers don’t always get right. My favorite DC series so far.

[CaptCleghorn]

The Legion comes w. a lot of baggage, and not everyone was going to be happy no matter what was done or who did it.

I like that Bendis tried something different.

EDIT
I like that he cared enough to try something different.

This is an opinion I respect.

My opinion is that many Legion fans came in with the Levitz/Giffen era and favor that (it was pretty damn good). I also suspect DC would LOVE to see those numbers for LSH again and have been trying over the years to revamp, change, tweak, and adjust to relight the spark. I'm pretty sure it's a fact the attempts haven't been able to do that.

My major criticism of Bendis is he was very heavy on 21st century characters in a book set 1000 years in the future. And the book was a Jon Kent vehicle.

But he used Interlac a lot and the book had a different look than others DC was publishing. The book grew on me although it wasn't nearly as high on my list as the Levitz/Giffen or the 5YL run (also a brilliant work). It was new, it was different, but it brought back some classic concepts. Superboy and... foremost among them. The racial diversification was needed. You can mention the blue, green, and orange characters but when all other features of those characters say white person colored something not brown, that doesn't exist. Cosmic Boy was redone as a jock. And guess what? He was a jock. However, we never really saw that aspect of his character, only that he was the BEST at using his powers. CB was a lot like Earth 2's Jay Garrick. Both were characters redone as rookies learning how to use their abilities and dealing with their roles. These are Year One arcs for these heroes.

I have no idea what's up with no Legion 13 in March. Not having read the conclusion of issue 12 or any real idea what Future State has in store for them, the contents or even setting of the next issue may be spoiler filled. I've waited many months for Legion (and JSA, don't get me started) books, a few more weeks are nothing but water off a duck's back.

[kcekada]

I like the concept of LoSH but I am not afraid to say the simple thing, This book has no Wolverine, even worse this book has no Cyclops,Jean Grey or Storm. Why should this concept being doing better without characters who could sell a project by themselves within the comic community?

Even though teams do have favorite characters -- it's still the team concept that sells the books! Of all the X-Men, only Wolverine has been successful long-term as a solo character. Legion had plenty of fan favorite characters when it sold the best (the Bronze Age). When those characters get rebooted, the fan base is going to be diluted, because it's not the same characters. That's one of Legion's biggest problems.

I guess DC wanted to try another reboot when the 52 version that brought back the original cast failed to catch on. The problem, however, was the mediocre writing --placing the blame squarely on Paul Levitz.

For whatever reason, Bendis's Legion is yet another reboot. No idea if that was at DC's or his urging, but that decision was never going to sit well with old fans.

Honestly, I think both DC and Marvel are a mess right now. Marvel has too many events, and DC has too many reboots. They are losing long-term readers by going after short-term gains. Legion probably got crapped on more than any other DC franchise, but none of their books are really in a great place.