Amazing Spider-Man 54.LR discussion

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I would have liked to have had Norman kill Harry

...because a father killing his son is really the stuff that redemption quests are made of.

...( to make him pay for his actions down through the years)

Aside from some gaslighting and being a general jerk, Harry hasn't done a percentage of the horrible things that even, say Vulture has done leave alone Norman.

What actions down through the years is Norman supposed to make Harry pay for?

[t-spider]

...because a father killing his son is really the stuff that redemption quests are made of.



Aside from some gaslighting and being a general jerk, Harry hasn't done a percentage of the horrible things that even, say Vulture has done leave alone Norman.

What actions down through the years is Norman supposed to make Harry pay for?

I'd rather not see Norman kill Harry, either. I don't really want Harry dead again, but I do want to see a re-match between he and Peter, that Peter finally triumphs over him.

[NC_Yankee]

...because a father killing his son is really the stuff that redemption quests are made of.



Aside from some gaslighting and being a general jerk, Harry hasn't done a percentage of the horrible things that even, say Vulture has done leave alone Norman.

What actions down through the years is Norman supposed to make Harry pay for?

I should have explained myself better. I meant Norman having to pay for the stuff he has done. There was a movie called Gunman’s Walk where Van Heflin was a racist land owner who had two sons. One was dating a mixed race ( Native American) girl and the other was a sociopath. He had to kill the bad one in a gunfight. Heflin basically created the monster and enabled the monster so he was forced to destroy the monster. That was the ending I wanted for Norman.

[xpyred]

I’m over this. Next week needs to come so we can end this damn arc. I don’t expect answers next week either and frankly I don’t want them. Move on from kindred and focus on other crap.

[NC_Yankee]

I’m over this. Next week needs to come so we can end this damn arc. I don’t expect answers next week either and frankly I don’t want them. Move on from kindred and focus on other crap.

The length coupled with too many characters are the primary issues I have had with the story. I see one of two outcomes ( neither of which I like). 1: A rushed ending. Peter somehow wins but very unsatisfying ( like Sin Eaters Suicide). 2: The story does not end, and Harry wins. Based on the fact that evil Norman returns ( working with Fisk), makes me think this is the more likely scenario. I just hope Spencer does not remove MJ from the book ( either by Peter walking away ( by listening to Harry) or by having her Sleep With The Fish ( making him as bad as dad). If MJ goes, I am finished.

[Frontier]

The length coupled with too many characters are the primary issues I have had with the story. I see one of two outcomes ( neither of which I like). 1: A rushed ending. Peter somehow wins but very unsatisfying ( like Sin Eaters Suicide). 2: The story does not end, and Harry wins. Based on the fact that evil Norman returns ( working with Fisk), makes me think this is the more likely scenario. I just hope Spencer does not remove MJ from the book ( either by Peter walking away ( by listening to Harry) or by having her Sleep With The Fish ( making him as bad as dad). If MJ goes, I am finished.

It seems like one of the post-LR issues deal with Peter and MJ's relationship so there's that at least.

[Kevinroc]

The other Spider-Heroes are useless. What are they even doing in this arc?

[Pattern_Maker]

The other Spider-Heroes are useless. What are they even doing in this arc?

They were supposed to be helping to save Peter, but Harry used that against them to hurt Peter even more.

Usually, when Peter's enemies target his loved ones it's MJ, Aunt May, Jonah, etc..., but Harry decided to go after the other spiders since Peter inspired most of them to become heroes. I hate how Nick Spencer used them in this arc, but you have to admit that it was a unique thing to do this time around.

[Frontier]

They were supposed to be helping to save Peter, but Harry used that against them to hurt Peter even more.

Usually, when Peter's enemies target his loved ones it's MJ, Aunt May, Jonah, etc..., but Harry decided to go after the other spiders since Peter inspired most of them to become heroes. I hate how Nick Spencer used them in this arc, but you have to admit that it was a unique thing to do this time around.

Miles, yeah, Anya and Cindy to a certain extent...but I think that's about it.

[NC_Yankee]

They were supposed to be helping to save Peter, but Harry used that against them to hurt Peter even more.

Usually, when Peter's enemies target his loved ones it's MJ, Aunt May, Jonah, etc..., but Harry decided to go after the other spiders since Peter inspired most of them to become heroes. I hate how Nick Spencer used them in this arc, but you have to admit that it was a unique thing to do this time around.

The other Spider characters were there strictly for padding purposes ( as were Mysterio, Sin Eater, Morlun and the rest). The entire arc could have been done with Norman, Harry, Peter and MJ and it would have been a lot shorter and better.

[blackspidey2099]

I think this issue was the best of Last Remains so far, but I do think that making Osborn evil again so quickly was a bit of a missed opportunity. At this point though, I’m more excited for the new stories solicited for next year than I am about Last Remains.

[your_name_here]

Nice twist on Osborn. Spencer really gets the character of Osborn doesn’t he.

[Lukmendes]

Also, I will say that might be the biggest Madame Web moment for any version of the character since "Nothing can stop the Juggernaut".

Considering all she did there was sit in a chair constantly asking Spidey for help, it tells you how low Madame Web's standards are .

i dont like madam web she doesnt seem useful at all just vague to be vague

She mostly sucks, yeah, besides this issue here, I think the most useful she's been was when she just got the Madame Web powers and she prevented Peter from killing Kraven during Grim Hunt (As that could be really bad for Peter and his future), and during Spider-Island, where she told Anya what to do to slow down the Spider-Invasion while Peter saves the day, and getting Peter ready for it to begin with with that Spider-Fu training... And also in Spider-Island, it's because of her that Spider-Queen became so powerful in the end, by telling everyone to turn off the psychich jamming towers, which once turned off, made her be able to see the future again, which made her see that she gave Spider-Queen her powers back, and realize how badly she fucked up.

So yeah, there are reasons for her to be one of my favorite punching bags lol.

No wonder he was ticked at his family for bringing him back...

Well, Grim Hunt makes it obvious he actually thought that his suicide was the right thing to do after "proving" he was superior to Spidey, basically his life peaked and he killed himself 'cause of that, yeah... Dunno how much Soul of the Hunter was included in that lol.

Aside from some gaslighting and being a general jerk, Harry hasn't done a percentage of the horrible things that even, say Vulture has done leave alone Norman.

Yeah, the most evil shit he did were as Kindred, which is ironic since it seems that in some twisted way, he thinks he's a good guy, not unlike the bullshit Venom used to regurgitate "I'm the protect of the innocent, unless they get in the way of my revenge..."

What actions down through the years is Norman supposed to make Harry pay for?

It's also weird to even consider Norman is one to judge.

It seems like one of the post-LR issues deal with Peter and MJ's relationship so there's that at least.

Yeah, but solicits ain't trust-worthy lol.

The other Spider-Heroes are useless. What are they even doing in this arc?

Being plot devices lol.

They were supposed to be helping to save Peter, but Harry used that against them to hurt Peter even more.

Usually, when Peter's enemies target his loved ones it's MJ, Aunt May, Jonah, etc..., but Harry decided to go after the other spiders since Peter inspired most of them to become heroes. I hate how Nick Spencer used them in this arc, but you have to admit that it was a unique thing to do this time around.

It's a more "unique" idea yeah, but the execution was crap, to the point they could be replaced by some other group of heroes who are close to Peter, and it'd make little difference.

Also wouldn't say that Peter inspired most of 'em to become heroes lol.

Miles, yeah, Anya and Cindy to a certain extent...but I think that's about it.

Wouldn't even include Anya in this, 'cause while she's a fan, it always seemed to be more like "Oh he's a super-hero I like, that's cool!", she never really seemed to be inspired by him to become a hero, it wasn't the case back in the Araña comics, and so far they didn't retcon that, probably because she gets so little focus tjeu dpm't even bother lol.

Cindy definitely is included though, even if she became more annoyed at Peter at some point, she still became a hero because of him, and Last Remains at least seems to show she's on friendly terms with him.

Miles is a messier one to include, since technically he was inspired by another Peter to become a hero, even if he doesn't remember that, but he's still inspired by this one lol.

So yeah, two out of six, would be three if Mattie wasn't dead, five if Ben and Kaine were here, six if they remembered Miguel is in the past lol.

Anyways, the funny thing about constantly mocking Julia for being useless, is that whenever she does end up doing something useful I'm more impressed than usual lol.

The character moment with MJ was nice, although it's pretty questionable she decides to go along with what Norman is saying even though she doesn't trust him, probably that desperate to help out Peter.

The fight here had better choreography than the usual super-hero fight, which is something I guess lol.

Still, this just seems to confirm that the .LR issues are more filler than anything, 'cause the Spiders are possessed again, Sin Eater is dead so these issues with him being the protagonist didn't add much to the story, though it does add something to his character I guess, the most important detail this story adds is, uh, show what Norman and MJ are up to, and explain why the hell Strange doesn't show up ASAP to beat up Kindred's ass.

Still, this is more interesting than the main issues, which the sole appeal is "HEY, WE MAY TALK ABOUT OMD EVENTUALLY!", while not telling much of a story...

It's actually interesting to see some of the issues that Secret Empire had happen here, like characters being there just to be plot points and not much else, it's not on the garbage level that SE was, but it some mistakes are being repeated...

Also, I'm not really buying that Norman is suddenly evil again:



One of the good things about LR, and other moments about Spencer's run, is that body language can show what a character is thinking, and Norman doesn't really look happy here, despite him smiling in the previous page, I think he's playing Fisk to ensure MJ's, and/or Harry's safeness, specially considering he suddenly became evil again which makes no sense with what happened with everyone else...

Also, I'm still wondering what the hell is the connection Harry has with Fisk, and will this nonsense of Fisk being Harry's bitch end here?

Oh well, this one was decent enough, but it's one of those stories that make me think "Man, this could easily be so much better...".

[stillanerd]

Oh, I think it's very apparent that Norman Osborn has been playing some 3D speed chess/Xanathos Gambit all along. Consider the following:

1. He knew Harry was Kindred, even when when he thought he was Kletus Cassidy.
2. He also knew that the Sin-Eater was "cleansing" villains with his magic shotgun.
3. He likely deduced Kindred brought Sin-Eater back to life, so he also knew it was only a matter of time until Sin-Eater would come after him on Kindred's orders.
4. He saw how the other cleansed villains behaved and how compliant and repentant they were.
5. He knows that Harry has a soft spot for MJ, and also knows Peter would do everything he could to protect her if Harry did try to harm her.
6. And, being the new director of Ravencroft, he also has Mayor Wilson Fisk on speed dial.
7. He deliberately pushed Peter's buttons into throwing him out of the sub, and thus right into Sin-Eater's path.

In short, Norman wanted Sin-Eater to "cleanse" him (if he even was cleansed, but that's a whole other theory) and in so doing, arranged for MJ's involvement under the pretext of helping Peter and Harry. And unbeknownst to her, she's Norman's "secret weapon" into making Kindred vulnerable enough for Kingpin to defeat him

[TheMaker1610]

Oh, I think it's very apparent that Norman Osborn has been playing some 3D speed chess/Xanathos Gambit all along. Consider the following:

1. He knew Harry was Kindred, even when when he thought he was Kletus Cassidy.
2. He also knew that the Sin-Eater was "cleansing" villains with his magic shotgun.
3. He likely deduced Kindred brought Sin-Eater back to life, so he also knew it was only a matter of time until Sin-Eater would come after him on Kindred's orders.
4. He saw how the other cleansed villains behaved and how compliant and repentant they were.
5. He knows that Harry has a soft spot for MJ, and also knows Peter would do everything he could to protect her if Harry did try to harm her.
6. And, being the new director of Ravencroft, he also has Mayor Wilson Fisk on speed dial.
7. He deliberately pushed Peter's buttons into throwing him out of the sub, and thus right into Sin-Eater's path.

In short, Norman wanted Sin-Eater to "cleanse" him (if he even was cleansed, but that's a whole other theory) and in so doing, arranged for MJ's involvement under the pretext of helping Peter and Harry. And unbeknownst to her, she's Norman's "secret weapon" into making Kindred vulnerable enough for Kingpin to defeat him

I was under the impression that Norman was faking being evil again, so he could still rely on Kingpin's aid, and secure Harry and MJ survival.

Buuuuuut, the points you brought up, may be 101% accurate. Norman basically instigating most of this run events (from Absolute Carnage onwards) from the shadows is something I can totally see him doing, and I would go with it

Leaving aside how the Spider-team were basically filler characters in these LR. issues, I praise Spencer for how good his writing is ! Few writers can make us thing on 2 completely different scenarios, and still making us believe both could be 100% on the money with no objections !

Waiting for next week issue, the arc Finale !