Amazing Spider-Man 54.LR discussion

[Lukmendes]

3. He likely deduced Kindred brought Sin-Eater back to life, so he also knew it was only a matter of time until Sin-Eater would come after him on Kindred's orders.

That he did, in ASM#49/#850:

https://i.imgur.com/WWPC4JH.jpg

7. He deliberately pushed Peter's buttons into throwing him out of the sub, and thus right into Sin-Eater's path.

He was blatantly surprised, and annoyed, when Peter pushed him off the submarine:

https://i.imgur.com/MSs7d5S.jpg

(ASM#50)

Also even if we assume that Norman delayed the whole thing of being cleansed by Sin Eater to have fun as Green Goblin and **** around with Peter before being cleansed (Since that's the only way to explain why he'd try to delay it so much), this whole plan you mentioned completely relies on Norman thinking that Sin Eater's power wouldn't work on him, somehow, with absolutely no basis for it, and be right... And it's just garbage writing for that to be the case without a proper explanation, and would be on the same level of crap writing Go Down Swinging had with that "Goblin Serum makes the Carnage symbiote magically immune to fire and sonics!" nonsense.

Best way I can think of this working is that Norman at some point took the Goblin Serum off-screen and, he'd count on that making him go back to his "normal" (Which is already pushing it), but considering that Sin Eater makes people legit regret all the evil **** they do, he wouldn't take it again willingly.

[stillanerd]

That he did, in ASM#49/#850:

https://i.imgur.com/WWPC4JH.jpg



He was blatantly surprised, and annoyed, when Peter pushed him off the submarine:

https://i.imgur.com/MSs7d5S.jpg

(ASM#50)

Also even if we assume that Norman delayed the whole thing of being cleansed by Sin Eater to have fun as Green Goblin and **** around with Peter before being cleansed (Since that's the only way to explain why he'd try to delay it so much), this whole plan you mentioned completely relies on Norman thinking that Sin Eater's power wouldn't work on him, somehow, with absolutely no basis for it, and be right... And it's just garbage writing for that to be the case without a proper explanation, and would be on the same level of crap writing Go Down Swinging had with that "Goblin Serum makes the Carnage symbiote magically immune to fire and sonics!" nonsense.

Best way I can think of this working is that Norman at some point took the Goblin Serum off-screen and, he'd count on that making him go back to his "normal" (Which is already pushing it), but considering that Sin Eater makes people legit regret all the evil **** they do, he wouldn't take it again willingly.

Or Norman likely knew that, if he was cleansed, he'd anticipated that, with his sins gone, he'd do something to help his son, and that Mary Jane was the most likely person to get through to him. But either his sins returned to him after Harry removed them from Sin-Eater or when Kindred/Harry removed them from the Order of Spiders when Peter begged him to. In case, it may have been a gamble to pull his plan off. It also goes to show just how convoluted mastermind plots can be, much less writing them.

[Lukmendes]

Or Norman likely knew that, if he was cleansed, he'd anticipated that, with his sins gone, he'd do something to help his son, and that Mary Jane was the most likely person to get through to him. But either his sins returned to him after Harry removed them from Sin-Eater or when Kindred/Harry removed them from the Order of Spiders when Peter begged him to. In case, it may have been a gamble to pull his plan off.

The gamble would rely on cleansed Norman to act in this exact way, even though cleansed Norman would be aware of Norman's plan of trying to use cleansed Norman, and expect him to act in that exact way and do nothing else to protect people from, well, himself.

Not to mention there's him relying on the sins returning to make him go back to normal at some point to keep the plan going, and when that happens is huge too, specially since he needs to be himself to continue it since the way he talked with Fisk at the end of the issue shows that he let Fisk be part of whatever he's planning for a while, so probably before he brought MJ to the cemetery.

Plus, why the hell would Harry return Norman's sins on purpose when he can blatantly control them with no effort? Specially returning them soon after Sin Eater had them removed from him, while Norman was unconscious, meaning Norman lost them for a literal minute.

It also goes to show just how convoluted mastermind plots can be, much less writing them.

Super-villain plans like this are usually crap writing, some variation of "Everything that happened here, including things I blatantly didn't predict, were all according to plan!", and that just sucks, and I'll for sure mock Last Remains if Norman pulled some nonsensical bullshit like that lol.

[NC_Yankee]

The gamble would rely on cleansed Norman to act in this exact way, even though cleansed Norman would be aware of Norman's plan of trying to use cleansed Norman, and expect him to act in that exact way and do nothing else to protect people from, well, himself.

Not to mention there's him relying on the sins returning to make him go back to normal at some point to keep the plan going, and when that happens is huge too, specially since he needs to be himself to continue it since the way he talked with Fisk at the end of the issue shows that he let Fisk be part of whatever he's planning for a while, so probably before he brought MJ to the cemetery.

Plus, why the hell would Harry return Norman's sins on purpose when he can blatantly control them with no effort? Specially returning them soon after Sin Eater had them removed from him, while Norman was unconscious, meaning Norman lost them for a literal minute.



Super-villain plans like this are usually crap writing, some variation of "Everything that happened here, including things I blatantly didn't predict, were all according to plan!", and that just sucks, and I'll for sure mock Last Remains if Norman pulled some nonsensical bullshit like that lol.

Norman pulling a stunt like this would almost be fitting. You have to go back to the Clone Saga to see a worse long form Spider-Man arc. I am sure that Spencer has a point behind what he has written, but I have yet to figure it out. He references some of the most despised Spider-Man stories ever ( including almost reprinting BND). I cannot comprehend the purpose of using them ( especially The Other), and last but certainly not least, using characters that should have no business in this story ( not just Morlun). It starts with bringing back then killing off Sin Eater. It seemed like his only purpose was a plot device to bring in other characters. The only one who I can imagine coming up with such an over complicated plan would be Wily E. Coyote with his hair brained schemes to catch Road Runner. I suspect like the Coyote, Spencer will in the end fail at what he is attempting.

[Lukmendes]

Norman pulling a stunt like this would almost be fitting. You have to go back to the Clone Saga to see a worse long form Spider-Man arc.

I don't care if we had a horrible story in the past that had this kind of nonsense, repeating the same mistakes is just dumb.

I am sure that Spencer has a point behind what he has written, but I have yet to figure it out. He references some of the most despised Spider-Man stories ever ( including almost reprinting BND). I cannot comprehend the purpose of using them ( especially The Other),

'Cause OMD is the biggest fuckup in Spidey's life, to address it, it kinda has to be talked about, though Spencer right now is just wasting time with references instead of, y'know, talking about it.

and last but certainly not least, using characters that should have no business in this story ( not just Morlun). It starts with bringing back then killing off Sin Eater. It seemed like his only purpose was a plot device to bring in other characters. The only one who I can imagine coming up with such an over complicated plan would be Wily E. Coyote with his hair brained schemes to catch Road Runner. I suspect like the Coyote, Spencer will in the end fail at what he is attempting.

Yeah there's too many characters and the .LR issues practically had Sin Eater as the protagonist, even if it just ends with him dying... Maybe Marvel told Spencer to bring back more characters and he had to use 'em, but who knows, maybe this was Spencer's plan all along too, with him picking characters and not planning that well how to use 'em.

[RD155]

I’m over this. Next week needs to come so we can end this damn arc. I don’t expect answers next week either and frankly I don’t want them. Move on from kindred and focus on other crap.

The story is a mess at the moment. I’m not really sure about the direction or angle they are aiming for. Seemed like at one point it was an attempt to address OMD but not it’s all over the place. Hard to put into words how disappointed I am with this story especially after coming into it so hyped.

Too many characters.....too much decompression...too much dragging on with no apparent purpose. I just want this over with already.

[NC_Yankee]

I don't care if we had a horrible story in the past that had this kind of nonsense, repeating the same mistakes is just dumb.



'Cause OMD is the biggest fuckup in Spidey's life, to address it, it kinda has to be talked about, though Spencer right now is just wasting time with references instead of, y'know, talking about it.



Yeah there's too many characters and the .LR issues practically had Sin Eater as the protagonist, even if it just ends with him dying... Maybe Marvel told Spencer to bring back more characters and he had to use 'em, but who knows, maybe this was Spencer's plan all along too, with him picking characters and not planning that well how to use 'em.

Most of us agree with OMD being a F -Up, and it needs to be addressed. But there is no need to bring up The Other or Silk to name two reviled stories. If Spencer’s goal was to deal with OMD thru Kindred, then so be it. I am certainly on the top of the list of those who want it erased, but if you do not then man up and explain why it must remain ? But a long drawn out process is not the way to handle things ( especially when you chose Harry instead of an out of the box selection like The Burglar or Crime Master as Kindred).

[Huntsman Spider]

In the tone of the Fallout series narrator about war . . . "Osborn. Osborn never changes."

[Revolutionary_Jack]

In the tone of the Fallout series narrator about war . . . "Osborn. Osborn never changes."

Mary Jane spells it out, "The Goblin is the real you", she never bought his sob act for a minute.

[TheCape]

In the tone of the Fallout series narrator about war . . . "Osborn. Osborn never changes."

Honestly, your comment just make me think in Metal Gear Solid 4, with Snake opening narration "Goblins. Goblins never change".

Also i read the issue, and it was decent thought i still we should have gotten here sooner lol.

[HypnoHustler]

In the tone of the Fallout series narrator about war . . . "Osborn. Osborn never changes."

Funny to think Osborn has been back (24(!!!) years since 1996) longer than he was dead now (23 years).

[NC_Yankee]

Funny to think Osborn has been back (24(!!!) years since 1996) longer than he was dead now (23 years).

I admit to favoring Otto and Kingsley to Norman and Harry, and would prefer they come back and the Osborns disappear for a decade or more.

[NC_Yankee]

Mary Jane spells it out, "The Goblin is the real you", she never bought his sob act for a minute.

MJ is smart.She knows that “Tigers don’t change their stripes and leopards don’t change their spots” and Norman is the same way: Incapable of doing good (which is why he is the most evil villain Peter faces, this side of Carnage).

[HypnoHustler]

I admit to favoring Otto and Kingsley to Norman and Harry, and would prefer they come back and the Osborns disappear for a decade or more.

No way. Didn’t we get enough of Otto during Slott’s run? I agree Norman is also over exposed, but it’s nice to see Harry as a villain again even if Spencer won’t pull it off as well as DeMatteis. As for Kingsley... what a bland character... he never did anything for me. Even Phil was better as Hobby.

What we really need are some great, semi-forgotten characters back again, like Vermin, Chance (who did re-appear recently), Swarm, Fusion, Hammerhead, Black Tarantula, Hydro-Man, Rhino, Shocker, Looter, Taskmaster, Cardiac, Smythe and his Spider-Slayers, Carrion, many great underused characters to pull from.

[Huntsman Spider]

Mary Jane spells it out, "The Goblin is the real you", she never bought his sob act for a minute.

As none of us should have.

Honestly, your comment just make me think in Metal Gear Solid 4, with Snake opening narration "Goblins. Goblins never change".

Also i read the issue, and it was decent thought i still we should have gotten here sooner lol.

Agreed, and thanks.

MJ is smart.She knows that “Tigers don’t change their stripes and leopards don’t change their spots” and Norman is the same way: Incapable of doing good (which is why he is the most evil villain Peter faces, this side of Carnage).

And to think, he was actually bonded with Carnage for a while there. The two evilest villains Spider-Man has ever had, effectively merged into one.

No way. Didn’t we get enough of Otto during Slott’s run? I agree Norman is also over exposed, but it’s nice to see Harry as a villain again even if Spencer won’t pull it off as well as DeMatteis. As for Kingsley... what a bland character... he never did anything for me. Even Phil was better as Hobby.

What we really need are some great, semi-forgotten characters back again, like Vermin, Chance (who did re-appear recently), Swarm, Fusion, Hammerhead, Black Tarantula, Hydro-Man, Rhino, Shocker, Looter, Taskmaster, Cardiac, Smythe and his Spider-Slayers, Carrion, many great underused characters to pull from.

For the record, Cardiac did just show up in Iron Man's second issue by Christopher Cantwell, where he was holding a hospital hostage because of its ties to some pharmaceutical company he had (perhaps understandable) issues with, and Iron Man had to fight him and rescue the people Cardiac was holding hostage. I prefer him as a somewhat ruthless, although otherwise well-intentioned anti-hero/anti-villain, but if he's going full-blown terrorist . . . that would be something. As for Taskmaster, he currently has his hands full trying to prove he didn't murder Maria Hill, though Shocker would be a great one to see again under Nick Spencer's pen, and since The Clone Conspiracy did effectively bring back (Alistair) Smythe, maybe he could show up as part of a team-up with other evil roboticists/cyberneticists or something like that. I'd love for Black Tarantula to come back to the Spider-Books as well.