Amazing Spider-Man 54.LR discussion

[NC_Yankee]

Actually, this will never be true thanks to the communication / availability / proliferation of content on the internet. Tons of relatively new Spider-Man readers are immediately shown OMD, the marriage, etc through social media / youtube videos / etc.

OMD has went on for a dozen years, that is a long time . The casual fan and ( or) the newer fan does not on average care about the marriage as much as the older and ( or) hard core fan. Maybe the best analogy is sports. People talk sports at work, but how the Carolina Panthers play does not affect them ( win or lose). But if my teams (above all Yankees) lose it bothers me a lot. One World Series in 20 years I hate it with a passion ( even more then OMD). Why? The amount of time and money I have invested. It is no different with Spider-Man.

[Lukmendes]

Nope, he left after the Iron Man 2020 saga, and Christopher Cantwell started a new Iron Man series back in September.

Huh, thought he'd stay for longer than that, thanks for info.

I agree with this sentiment. I think Norman has been involved in a lot of really solid stories since his return, and I couldn’t be happier that he still knows Peter is Spidey. I understand the perspective that many here are mentioning - that he needs to take a break for a few years - but I see him as a mainstay. Even though The Gathering of Five and The Final Chapter are typically looked down upon as trashy stories, I loved that era because he was so involved in the overall story. And yes, Peter has a lot of really great villains that deserve a larger spotlight, but I think there’s just something so exciting to me about seeing Norman scheme and screw with Peter’s life. Nobody else is ever really written like he is. Of course, mileage varies amongst us. But when he’s written well, I honestly can’t get enough of Norman.

While I think the Gathering of Five was dumb, stories before that were interesting in some ways, mostly how Norman pretending to be a good man was hilarious with how much audacity he had to act like a saint lol.

Actually, this will never be true thanks to the communication / availability / proliferation of content on the internet. Tons of relatively new Spider-Man readers are immediately shown OMD, the marriage, etc through social media / youtube videos / etc.

I think Quesada said that in 5 years fans would forget about it, and here we are, 12 years later, so many fans still butthurt about it lol.

Thing is though, eventually people will stop caring about OMD even if it's never solved, but the story is that kind of bad that it won't happen so soon, and I don't think it's an exaggeration to say it's only gonna happen once old fans die off lol.

[Ursalink]

OMD has went on for a dozen years, that is a long time . The casual fan and ( or) the newer fan does not on average care about the marriage as much as the older and ( or) hard core fan. Maybe the best analogy is sports. People talk sports at work, but how the Carolina Panthers play does not affect them ( win or lose). But if my teams (above all Yankees) lose it bothers me a lot. One World Series in 20 years I hate it with a passion ( even more then OMD). Why? The amount of time and money I have invested. It is no different with Spider-Man.

People nowadays is too impatient. Ben Reilly spent double that time dead before they finally brought him back (20 years, from 1996 to 2015). I'm pretty sure we can, for a time, still hope for Spider-Man and MJ's marriage to be restored at some point, as it only passed 12 years. And like I said, since Marvel and DC copy each other continuously, Marvel can restore Spider-Marriage just like DC restored Superman's marriage.

[TheCape]

I agree with this sentiment. I think Norman has been involved in a lot of really solid stories since his return, and I couldn’t be happier that he still knows Peter is Spidey. I understand the perspective that many here are mentioning - that he needs to take a break for a few years - but I see him as a mainstay. Even though The Gathering of Five and The Final Chapter are typically looked down upon as trashy stories, I loved that era because he was so involved in the overall story. And yes, Peter has a lot of really great villains that deserve a larger spotlight, but I think there’s just something so exciting to me about seeing Norman scheme and screw with Peter’s life. Nobody else is ever really written like he is. Of course, mileage varies amongst us. But when he’s written well, I honestly can’t get enough of Norman.

Norman was fun in that time and i did like the build up, it was kind of like a modernized version of those times than he recovered his memories in the Silver Age but less stupid, shame that the final result was such a dub.

As for him being overused, eh, i think that people exagerate it, the only two times when i feel than that happened was in the build up to Final Chapter, wich was fine by me, considering that he has just been resurrected, plus is not like he was behind every bad day in Peter's life back then, he has nothing to do with Black Tarantula, or Carnage Suffer, or the whole thing with Alyosha and Callypso, among others. The other is around 2004/05 because sadly Millar's run and Sin of Past happened right around the same time, so you have Norman being the main bad guy twice in row.

Outside of that, he has been fine in his numbers of apperances, at least in Spider-Man books.

[Vortex85]

OMD has went on for a dozen years, that is a long time . The casual fan and ( or) the newer fan does not on average care about the marriage as much as the older and ( or) hard core fan. Maybe the best analogy is sports. People talk sports at work, but how the Carolina Panthers play does not affect them ( win or lose). But if my teams (above all Yankees) lose it bothers me a lot. One World Series in 20 years I hate it with a passion ( even more then OMD). Why? The amount of time and money I have invested. It is no different with Spider-Man.

You'd be surprised with how many relatively new fans I've seen on social media who passionately want Peter and MJ to get married who were too young and/or never comic book fans at the time of their marriage.

Many just want Peter to marry because they feel that is a natural progression for his character, and since MJ is his #1 love interest, most feel after only some exposure she is the most fitting choice. Also i know from my own experience, I feel strongly connected to stories I read in Spider-Man's past that I was never around for. Some of my favorite issues were written before I was born or before I started collecting and the events in those stories shape my feeling for the character. It doesn't take being around for a particular story to affect you just as strongly, or maybe even more strongly than other fans who were around at the time those stories were released.

I don't think it's fair to equate a sports game vs. a book, it's very different. Sports games are highly situational and subjective based on what team is local and if they are playing during your lifetime, while stories tend to be more timeless and affect people similarly over multi generations.

[Vortex85]

I think Quesada said that in 5 years fans would forget about it, and here we are, 12 years later, so many fans still butthurt about it lol.

Thing is though, eventually people will stop caring about OMD even if it's never solved, but the story is that kind of bad that it won't happen so soon, and I don't think it's an exaggeration to say it's only gonna happen once old fans die off lol.

If Marvel are banking on time to dissolve fan desire for Spider-Man to get married, then they are in for a big shock because it has nothing to do with time. For as long is Peter Parker is a single young adult who is of age to marry combined with romantic drama being present in the book, the desire for him to be married will remain. On top of that, as long as Mary Jane stays a prominent love interest who is the focus of much of the romantic drama, she will continue be a top fan favorite for fans to desire Peter to be married with. This will never go away and it has nothing to do with him having already been married in the past. But that does add to it and make it even more pressing on fans.

Imagine a world where Peter never married Mary Jane and he was still single and having romantic stories where she is his girlfriend, do you really think fans wouldn't all be complaining about when are these two going to finally get married? No, lol, long time fans would be itching for it as it's just a natural desire for humans to want to see, especially for such a human character as Peter Parker who is supposed to be relatable to people.

It would take the entire human race to collectively and culturally abandon the institution of marriage to change things... not time.

[Vortex85]

One more thing, as decades go by the big stories can be talked about as if they happened yesterday. I mean, we can talk about the events in Amazing Fantasy #15 just as easily and with just as much attention as we could with say, Spider-Island. The big stories, the controversial stories, will always get the most focus and attention though. I can't think of a bigger or more controversial story than OMD, so until it is addressed, people 100s of years will still speak of it and dwell on it just as clearly as we can speak and dwell on any story we choose today from Spidey's past. Time will not change that.

[Forty20]

I guess the Spec 200 pages served as a flashback but Im sure as hell glad they kept the word "husband"(the part Harry said to MJ "your stinking husband" in those pages instead of editing to boyfriend or something to reflect post OMD timeline. maybe its done on purpose

That’s an excellent point.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I guess the Spec 200 pages served as a flashback but Im sure as hell glad they kept the word "husband"(the part Harry said to MJ "your stinking husband" in those pages instead of editing to boyfriend or something to reflect post OMD timeline. maybe its done on purpose

Great catch.

[Lukmendes]

I guess the Spec 200 pages served as a flashback but Im sure as hell glad they kept the word "husband"(the part Harry said to MJ "your stinking husband" in those pages instead of editing to boyfriend or something to reflect post OMD timeline. maybe its done on purpose

Huh, didn't even notice that lol.

If Marvel are banking on time to dissolve fan desire for Spider-Man to get married, then they are in for a big shock because it has nothing to do with time. For as long is Peter Parker is a single young adult who is of age to marry combined with romantic drama being present in the book, the desire for him to be married will remain. On top of that, as long as Mary Jane stays a prominent love interest who is the focus of much of the romantic drama, she will continue be a top fan favorite for fans to desire Peter to be married with. This will never go away and it has nothing to do with him having already been married in the past. But that does add to it and make it even more pressing on fans.

The impact some stories have eventually is going to be gone, maybe they can still be popular or infamous, but time eventually makes them look smaller and smaller, someday that's probably gonna happen with OMD, after all, Clone Saga was also a shitstorm, yet it's way less bitched about nowadays, it may even get praises.

Imagine a world where Peter never married Mary Jane and he was still single and having romantic stories where she is his girlfriend, do you really think fans wouldn't all be complaining about when are these two going to finally get married? No, lol, long time fans would be itching for it as it's just a natural desire for humans to want to see, especially for such a human character as Peter Parker who is supposed to be relatable to people.

We had Superman never getting married with Lois for over 50 years despite her being his most prominent love interest of all, and marriage being a rather constant subject between 'em lol.

People can bitch and moan about things never changing, but comic books are also the kind of medium people bitch and moan if changes happen, hell, we had people against the marriage once it happened lol.

It would take the entire human race to collectively and culturally abandon the institution of marriage to change things... not time.

Well, marriage nowadays is seen as a less important thing, maybe even optional, definitely not the same as that "Everyone has to get married at some point" nonsense, so yeah, to a certain extent that can happen, although obviously not everyone will want to abandon this overrated tradition.

One more thing, as decades go by the big stories can be talked about as if they happened yesterday. I mean, we can talk about the events in Amazing Fantasy #15 just as easily and with just as much attention as we could with say, Spider-Island. The big stories, the controversial stories, will always get the most focus and attention though. I can't think of a bigger or more controversial story than OMD, so until it is addressed, people 100s of years will still speak of it and dwell on it just as clearly as we can speak and dwell on any story we choose today from Spidey's past. Time will not change that.

People can talk about old stories more easily nowadays, but reading an old story and understanding the impact it had back then compared to nowadays are two very different things, specially the emotional impact the story has back when it was being published.

AF#15, Spidey's origin story, back then it was a very tragic origing with a character who had his head shoved too far up his ass who had a loss because of dramatic irony, which was practically unheard of among super-heroes, nowadays heroes have tragic stories all the time, so AF#15 stands out a lot less.

OMD can easily be seen as just some dumb story that is not even hated after a while, 'cause fans may just read it, think "Man, this was dumb", then move on to something else.

So yeah, I doubt this hate will last forever even if Marvel never addresses OMD, 'cause people move on, it can be forever seen as a dumb story, but impact those stuff have are often forgotten by people overall.

[Vortex85]

The impact some stories have eventually is going to be gone, maybe they can still be popular or infamous, but time eventually makes them look smaller and smaller, someday that's probably gonna happen with OMD, after all, Clone Saga was also a shitstorm, yet it's way less bitched about nowadays, it may even get praises.

Sure OMD's impact I would say is already seen as a dumb story, but my point isn't really about OMD as a story being seen as good or bad.

My point is the status quo of the character being single vs. married is always going to be a thing with fans. Again, this is regardless of the character's history of being married, but the fact that he was and the way it was erased will always be fuel in the pro-marriage camp. And the pro-marriage camp's existence will be there forever, regardless of whether or not OMD even existed or not... no matter in what way the marriage was removed or whether it had happened before.

I think reason for this is Peter as a character is someone who is in fact very into the idea of getting married. We have seen that all through his history, from the first time he proposed in the 70s, then again in the 80s, the legacy of his marriage over 2 decades, and then even now in the current run again. Every decade of his existence marriage has been advertised and integrated into the stories. It's ingrained in his character. Even Into The Spider-Verse shows his future in not one, but TWO realities, he is married to MJ. It's in his Life Story. It's in multiple realties including MC2 and Renew Your Vows.

So until Marvel moves away from this with the character completely, it's going to remain a hot topic. And the fact that's it's been so pervasive means its really going to have to be a complete altering of Peter as a character to change that.

[Jness]

I really liked this issue. The art is excellent, and the dialogue is on-point.

This bit here is an all-time moment for the character who says it, and also the character it's about, in that it accurately defines Spider-Man and his world:

Attachment 103431


Also the Nick Lowe editor's note at the end is hilarious and self-aware if you know your Spider-Man history and the fuss about KLH.

Wow, everyone is entitled to their perspectives but I don't remotely consider this panel an all-time for either MJ or Norman. However I've read a lot of comics, TBF.

[federicodettofred]

Did Norman pull out a Death Note scheme getting cleaned but knowing he would be back to normal once Sin-Eater was dead? Because if that's so... It's one of the most idiotic ideas Spencer had. I hope he was only faking being a good guy or he's faking being a bad guy now.

[Huntsman Spider]

Did Norman pull out a Death Note scheme getting cleaned but knowing he would be back to normal once Sin-Eater was dead? Because if that's so... It's one of the most idiotic ideas Spencer had. I hope he was only faking being a good guy or he's faking being a bad guy now.

We'll find out by Wednesday, I suppose.