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  1. #1
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Default Doctor Doom #10 Final issue - "Bedford Falls" SPOILERS

    Whoa... that ending is a shocker. After absorbing all his other self had to say about his perfect world and Doom's decidedly imperfect self, all Hell suddenly breaks loose. And is that what it all ties back to? Back in issue #3, which seems like ages ago since this series was interrupted by the pandemic Doom was down in Hell since Taskmaster killed him in issue #2. Mephisto was practically rubbing his clawed hands together in anticipation when Mistress Death intervened and sent Doom back to the land of the living.



    This issue seems to come full circle when the series concludes with the death of untold billions, trillions. It's probably irrelevant to Mistress Death. But does this pay off Doom's account with her? I considered that possibility since Doom did seem contrite about his failings being pointed out to him. But perhaps his other more perfect self began to grate on him. Sackcloth and ashes are not exactly part of Doom's wardrobe. So was this payment in full to Mistress Death or just Doom rejecting any attempt to reform? I'm thinking it's a bit of both.

  2. #2
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    I recognized the callback to Mistress Death's claims.

    The ending was really dark and severe as a note to end on. And I am not sure what to make of it. I think it's basically hard or impossible to concieve of any redemption for Victor after this.

    That is to say he'll still be what he was, a bad guy with some humanity and who occassionally does big things but still someone who is beyond the pale. It's just that barring some way to retcon or explain this away, I just don't think you can see any goodness in Doom anymore (as he himself acknowledges at the end).

    I will say that on the whole this feels like Unthinkable done right. In that the ending is really sad, tragic, and haunting and not simply petty and spiteful as Waid's Unthinkable was.

  3. #3
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Makes me wonder if Adam Brashear is going to have a long talk with Reed after this. Maybe Reed will not be so lenient with Valeria and her Uncle Doom.

  4. #4
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    I believe it was the very beginning of Slott's run where Reed talks to a version of Dr. Doom that's good, but exists in a world without Reed. I assumed it was setting the stage for Reed to try to coax good out of Doom or at least try to redefine their relationship in some way, but that thread has never been picked up. It certainly would be a more interesting thread to pick back up after this series, given Doom's own response to a redeemed version of himself and what seems to be a newfound belief that he is evil. He's certainly done evil things before, but I'd be surprised if he ever thought himself as evil. It could be up to Reed to drag him back towards some place more morally neutral.

  5. #5
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scribbleMind View Post
    I believe it was the very beginning of Slott's run where Reed talks to a version of Dr. Doom that's good, but exists in a world without Reed. I assumed it was setting the stage for Reed to try to coax good out of Doom or at least try to redefine their relationship in some way, but that thread has never been picked up. It certainly would be a more interesting thread to pick back up after this series, given Doom's own response to a redeemed version of himself and what seems to be a newfound belief that he is evil. He's certainly done evil things before, but I'd be surprised if he ever thought himself as evil. It could be up to Reed to drag him back towards some place more morally neutral.
    I know the story you are talking about. It was in Zdarsky's Marvel Two in One where they encountered a Doom that Reed had made friends with...I'm assuming it was part of this newly created universe that Reed was building after Secret Wars when Franklin was still uber-powerful . This was back in 2017, Marvel Two in One #11. So maybe Marvel figures 3 or 4 years of a Doom who was trying to change is enough.




  6. #6
    Mighty Member Biclopcicle's Avatar
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    The only Doom who destroyed an entire universe was Doom Reed (i think it was F4 605.1 or whatever-- Nazi Reed had grafted part of Doom's brain onto his own)

    As someone who had the opportunity to completely destroy the multiverse and build it from scratch to his liking, yet chose instead to preserve as much of the old reality as possible, i just don't see 616 Victor doing what he did

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    Makes me wonder if Adam Brashear is going to have a long talk with Reed after this. Maybe Reed will not be so lenient with Valeria and her Uncle Doom.
    Reed should never have been lenient with Victor in the first place.

  8. #8
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    The thing is that for all his arrogance (the sort that gets him mini-lobotomies), Reed has a bad habit of letting guilt/shame influence his thinking. And despite it being Ben’s fault and despite Doom’s hubris; Reed feels it’s his fault Doom started on his path, a path that still left him able to save Valeria when Reed couldn’t.

    Even on his best days Doom is a functional Hollywood!sociopath (emphasis on the Hollywood)

  9. #9
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    How come that brilliant good guy counterpart, left himself open to an impulsive assasination?

  10. #10
    Astonishing Member legion_quest's Avatar
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    I never feel any story that takes Doom so far in to irredeemable that you feel wrong for liking him, is good.

    Modern Doom should exist perennially in the grey. His morals may be different to the norm, but he can't just be outright evil or morally bankrupt/spiteful.

    He's just Doom. This story both seemed to get that and not get that.

    I think I need to read all the issues again as one big story.
    I will raise my throne above the Stars of God

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by legion_quest View Post
    I never feel any story that takes Doom so far in to irredeemable that you feel wrong for liking him, is good.

    Modern Doom should exist perennially in the grey. His morals may be different to the norm, but he can't just be outright evil or morally bankrupt/spiteful.

    He's just Doom. This story both seemed to get that and not get that.

    I think I need to read all the issues again as one big story.
    Originally replied to wrong comment.

  12. #12
    Cosmic Curmudgeon JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    Makes me wonder if Adam Brashear is going to have a long talk with Reed after this. Maybe Reed will not be so lenient with Valeria and her Uncle Doom.
    If we were talking about real heroes that are concerned with justice, Blue Marvel would have flown to Castle Doom and dragged him back to a Kadesh holding cell as punishment for murdering countless lives in that alternate universe. And let's be clear -- Doom didn't just destroy every human, but every alien world and all of its denizens. He destroyed microscopic worlds and cosmic abstracts, too. In all likelihood everything that exists in the main universe existed in that alternate universe, and Doom wiped them completely out of existence.

    There should be consequences and Victor should be held to account for his heinous actions. I'd even settle for the Living Tribunal summoning Doom to its presence to punish him for potentially triggering a cosmic imbalance. But nothing will happen. Outcomes like this are just grist and gruel for the American Psycho complex that some writers cultivate.

    On another note, I find it interesting that Doom was characterized in this series as both being easily triggered to irrational levels by Reed, and apparently lacking any impulse control when it came to violently lashing out at his counterpart. Both of these would indicate that Doom, in fact, has a very weak will. With such mental deficiencies, how is it possible that Doom is able to wield the Ultimate Nullifier without destroying himself? I know the writer needed Doom to kill a bazillion beings to satisfy a plot point, but I question the efficacy of the means. Doom and Blue Marvel should have been toast.

  13. #13
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    I was shocked and i absolutely loved it and this series has made me love Doom even more. It is very rare for there to be a character that does such horrible things but are just so them that you still see their point. Doom's goals and dreams may not be what most would consider good or noble but they are his and he is capable of realizing them so just try to stop him. He knows there are consequences and is ready to deal with them if your the bigger, smarter man/woman. I love it.
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.

  14. #14
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    If we were talking about real heroes that are concerned with justice, Blue Marvel would have flown to Castle Doom and dragged him back to a Kadesh holding cell as punishment for murdering countless lives in that alternate universe. And let's be clear -- Doom didn't just destroy every human, but every alien world and all of its denizens. He destroyed microscopic worlds and cosmic abstracts, too. In all likelihood everything that exists in the main universe existed in that alternate universe, and Doom wiped them completely out of existence.

    There should be consequences and Victor should be held to account for his heinous actions. I'd even settle for the Living Tribunal summoning Doom to its presence to punish him for potentially triggering a cosmic imbalance. But nothing will happen. Outcomes like this are just grist and gruel for the American Psycho complex that some writers cultivate.

    On another note, I find it interesting that Doom was characterized in this series as both being easily triggered to irrational levels by Reed, and apparently lacking any impulse control when it came to violently lashing out at his counterpart. Both of these would indicate that Doom, in fact, has a very weak will. With such mental deficiencies, how is it possible that Doom is able to wield the Ultimate Nullifier without destroying himself? I know the writer needed Doom to kill a bazillion beings to satisfy a plot point, but I question the efficacy of the means. Doom and Blue Marvel should have been toast.
    Actually I didn't know that you had to have a strong will to wield the Ultimate Nullifier. Besides Reed using it defeat Abraxas, who else has used it? And where did it go at the end of this story?? Also in that story with Reed, it just acted like a reboot. Sue was then pregnant again with the child she lost in John Byrne's Fantastic Four.

    I won't use this story to posit that Doom has a weak will . You'd have to consider all that had happened after Secret Wars. He emerged from SW with his face restored, courtesy of Reed. During Infamous Iron Man and Marvel 2 in One, he took this as an opportunity for making a change. But for the most part, he was frustrated at every turn. Few people aside from Doctor Strange would even try to accept it. He was shot by Amara, attacked by Ben and was frequently attacked by the Hood and his gang. He shepherded Ben and Johnny in Reed's absence and even saved their lives a couple of times. You have to admit for the most part he's had a comfortable life. The majority of the people of Latveria look upon his favorably, he had a loyal household staff (I always wondered why no one took the easy shot at trying to poison his food or drink ) and for the most part he was able to keep Latveria in the UN and safe from their enemies.

    I think being insulted by a better version of himself was too much. But I do agree that he took things too far by wiping out his universe. This seemed odd choice by Cantwell considering he just gave an interview where he stated that genocide would be beyond the pale for Doom

    Doom is not a psychopath. He is not a relentless killer. He has a heart and soul, albeit ones that are warped. Doom has the ability to love others. I think he has a really hard time allowing himself to be loved. That makes a character that can connect with a lot of people, but then also refuse connection or sever connections because of his plethora of hang-ups.

    This may be wrong but I think there are limits to Doom's evil. I don't believe Doom would go off and commit genocide.
    This kind of statement makes some of us question why have Doom wipe out an entire universe. That and the early ending for the series makes me wonder. He has said he had written most of it some time ago and then the pandemic stopped production. For some odd reason, this series was one of the last to come back (and some haven't come back at all) Were there changes mandated? I guess we'll just have to speculate.

  15. #15
    Amazing Member Celtic1967's Avatar
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    Seems like a big missed opportunity. Due to the delays, the final chapter of this 10-issue story came out just a couple days before Christmas. It was the perfect chance to have an uplifting, happy ending. It feels like since this was more or less It's a Wonderful Life with Dr. Doom (Pottersville, Bedford Falls), the writer should maybe have just committed to the bit and had a more positive ending.
    Wanna make somethin' of it?

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