Zack Snyder Explains Why DC Movies Can't Be Like Marvel Movies

[SiegePerilous02]

Thats not the point. Point is that just because someone shots lasers from his eyes it doesn't mean that movie can't be "realistic".

Then I don't really know what you're point is. Because if it not being able to succeed in being realistic in how the characters interact with each other, it's unrealistic on multiple fronts.

[Alan2099]

So if the powers and abilities of the characters aren't realistic and the way the characters behave isn't realistic, what part of the movie is realistic? The lighting?

[SiegePerilous02]

So if the powers and abilities of the characters aren't realistic and the way the characters behave isn't realistic, what part of the movie is realistic? The lighting?

Jimmy getting shot.

[HsssH]

Then I don't really know what you're point is. Because if it not being able to succeed in being realistic in how the characters interact with each other, it's unrealistic on multiple fronts.

I was talking in general. Few posters said that movie can't be realistic because someone shots lasers from eyes and I think you said that Batman lifts too much for the movie to be realistic.

[SiegePerilous02]

I was talking in general. Few posters said that movie can't be realistic because someone shots lasers from eyes and I think you said that Batman lifts too much for the movie to be realistic.

It's more the general sentiment that superheroes movies aiming for realism are inherently better, and the idea that the Snyder movies aim for that and succeed at that, that I disagree with.

A movie can have some realistic elements in it even with characters like Superman or Wonder Woman. This one, IMO, doesn't really. Or if it does, it's half baked and abandons it when it is convenient, which makes it more difficult to take seriously than superheroes who make no pretense at living in a serious, grounded world.

[WebLurker]

I think when people say they want a "realistic" superhero movie, they mean they want "verisimilitude."

[Malvolio]

I think when people say they want a "realistic" superhero movie, they mean they want "verisimilitude."

I think we also want internal consistency. For instance, if Superman lifts a 747 with ease in one scene, he shouldn't struggle to lift a single engine prop plane in a later scene. However, if he struggles in both scenes, then the film does have internal consistency in establishing that this particular version of Superman is not as strong as previous versions.

[Castle]

Uh huh.




And you don't get to gatekeep. You disagree with me that Snyder is a bad filmmaker, much less not being Nolan's successor? Fine, make your case, but saying someone else's opinion doesn't count isn't a valid argument (and, in fact, often points to the person having no actual proof for their assertions).

.

If you look at this from more of a artistic POV, Snyder is a better film maker than anyone from marvel. Ofcourse this does not mean the film makers from Marvel are bad, we dont know how good or bad they are because they have no heavy input on their films.

We are talking outside of the Snyder cult, right? Frankly, while I have seen commentary on how the genre should expand and experiment, Snyder is not seen as the man with the vision on doing that. Heck, outside of the cult, the most positive reception I've seen to the Snyder Cut has been along the lines of supporting directorial freedom, pretty much nothing on Snyder being a good superhero filmmaker (in fact, BvS seems to have an even worse reception).

I don't dwell too much on cult but as you keep bringing it up, if anything feels cultish to me, I feel it more from the divided fandom of marvel because . To keep calling snyder fans a cult but ignore that there are some cult likes vibes among MCU is ironic. so cult like that some like to think marvel films started in 2008 and not 1998 or earlier.

Studios dont need to listen to fans, talk of a cult. WB realised they were wrong to have treated Snyder they way they should, WB decided to correct course.

Ask them. I just saw them saying they liked the couple, no reasons given. To be honest, I don't think there's always much logic behind shipping and everyone has their odd quicks (case in point, I think X-23 and Mercury should be a couple instead of having Hellion or teen Angel be X-23's significant others and I always liked Cyclops/Rogue thanks to the old X-Men: Evolution cartoon). Never got Black Panther/Storm, but to each their own.

Again like I said, it's was hype. However it exposes a bigger problem that will happens with marvel feature films especially their xmen flicks, because MCU and some of their fans are banking on xmen interacting with other marvel heroes for ''good movies'', although that is not the main draw for great xmen stories or movies. it never has been and never will be.

Guess I assumed you kept coming back to Spider-Man because that was the only argument you could make. (Also, your logic is in error; adapting one source has no bearing on how adapting another will.)

Spiderman in movies is the most infamous prime example of downgrade, but you can use the recent mcu avengers game that flopped and was just not good, very mediocre to Spiderman PS4, you can use another example of the endgame directors saying they got some influence from Logan and that is not true, because unlike Logan that makes comic book movies feel credible, Endgame strips that away. you can use the recent marvel cartoons that does not live up to the greatness of their past. infact the old marvel cartoons are called less kid friendly and less mass manufactured to MCU movies.

So, I was imagining the backlash when it looked like James Gunn wouldn't be directing Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 3? Or that Disney's old Aladdin movie is still a classic decades later? Or that Looney Tunes has remained a staple all these years? Get real, man.

A lot of disney old stuff are classics. their new films are not.

Snyder was correct here,
https://www.business-standard.com/ar...1100111_1.html.

This new Disney stuff are flavour of the week movies., Marvel, Star Wars Sequel trilogy, Live action animated movies Aladdin 2019 and Lion King 2019.

Source please. (Avengers has consistently remained popular since it came out and I think you're mixing up the "hated final 3rd act CGI plot" with Man of Steel or BvS.)

Avengers remains popular among MCU fans, the most popular marvel MCU film is Winter Solider. Avengers is more of a guilty pleasure, Its not a film makers dream. Reading Avengers reviews in 2012, its sounds bad to compare it to reviews to the dark knight rises and that film had problems.

The 3rd cgi third act started with Avengers or maybe Transformers. There were many debate comparisons between Avengers and Man of Steel on the destructive 3d cgi third act.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...-man-of-steel/

https://screencrush.com/how-the-aven...-man-of-steel/

https://comicsalliance.com/man-of-st...dollars-humor/

https://www.slashfilm.com/zack-snyde...-man-of-steel/

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/ne...billion-322486


Both did damage sure, However what makes Avengers worse is the damage is mostly played for fun, laughs and Jokes. It lacks the gravitas of Man of Steel The fact that people were left questioning superman, makes man of steel a better film to the generic superficial innocence fun of avengers.

Think I liked Jackman as Wolverine better, but I'm not so sure that RJD's Iron Man is less iconic; unlike Jackman, RDJ forever reinvented how his character is portrayed across all media.

sadly what you said hurts Iron Man, RDJ reinventing him in all media shows the limitations of what marvel has become. it was easier for iron man to put a D-List character on the map, but the character should have grown from what RDJ did in all media.

why hugh jackman has an edge is because hugh jackman got more [B]challenging feats with movies ,even if some of the movies did not live up to expectations, he still got to push the character and the story. Iron Man by endgame was just too much of a caricature to be taken seriously.

You, for one. "Always with you, it cannot be done," as the Jedi Master once said.

Looked online, everything I found was either positive, or at least intrigued about where things would go. Frankly, you're the only person melting down that I've seen (outside of the few posters who seem to be unusually angry that the MCU movies adapted the Ultimate Spidey/Iron Man dynamic from the comics). Maybe, and I get that this's a crazy idea, that most people happen to like the MCU Spidey movies and you're just not one of them?

Nah, its not positive. And calling it ''few posters'' who dont like the iron man/spidey thing is off. This one is a global dislike, Spiderman is an iconic figure, millions and millions of his fans were always going to reject the iron man thing.

Force Awakens, Last Jedi, Rogue One, Rebels, and The Mandalorian were well received, to put it mildly. Solo and Rise of Skywalker not so much. Outstanding batting average, considering the fanbase they had to deal with.

As of 2021, the reception of these movies is that they are mostly all terrible today. disney is now trying to wipe out the new trilogy, the same is happening with MCU movies, when Scorsese said what he said in 2019, the reception of marvel that was already changing just hit rock bottom.There is a reason the first thing I asked was, why would anyone want a well received comic film because of fun and humor over another that pushes the genre higher than that in a way that is still commendable 20 years on.

To be honest I don't think anyone in Hollywood holds any new age dinsey films to some high artistic fountain, Pixar is not ...cant do no wrong anymore . Even if anyone does not like Snyder, at least he can call himself a working director that does is own thing, whose opinions matters.

[Castle]

It's more than that it's also the visual language with how films are made. The more real something looks the closer it is to reality, however, Snyder's not doing this he just thinks he does. Nolan does this in his films, Snyder engages in surrealist cynicism. Snyder's darker tones work in theory, in practice it comes offers being edgy and the scenes being made are just as ridiculous as movies which embrace their comic book silliness.

For example, let's compare Nolan's TDK with Snyder's B vs S.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FW9Sqxb-4o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7GWGLkPepU

Which one looks more realistic? Nolan's, in my opinion. He's excellent at convincing audiences that silly things his protagonists do feel real. It's why everyone didn't catch onto the wild things Joker did which he shouldn't have been able to do in the real world and barely anyone noticed watching TDK. Unlike Snyder who breaks the immersion when Batman throws crates like nothing when he's supposed to just a really fit bodybuilder in rodent suit, oh yeah, someone stabs him with a dagger which goes in deep and he never acknowledges the pain or the fact he's going to bleed to death until he patches that wound.

They both look realistic. One of the clear edge Snyder has over Nolan is the direction of Action scenes. Nolan didn't even try to use any godly batman villains and there is a reason why.


I dont know why Snyder sub realness of realism in his movies is so upsetting to many that like MCU movies.

Unlike Snyder who breaks the immersion when Batman throws crates like nothing when he's supposed to just a really fit bodybuilder in rodent suit, oh yeah, someone stabs him with a dagger which goes in deep and he never acknowledges the pain or the fact he's going to bleed to death until he patches that wound.

Snyder based batman-ben on the dark knight returns , if you read that comic and keep it honest your POV will change.

[Alan2099]

If you look at this from more of a artistic POV, Snyder is a better film maker than anyone from marvel.

Even from an artistic point of view, he's pretty horrible. Having more creative control doesn't mean what you're doing is good. Good but the same is still good, while original but bad is still bad.

[Castle]

Even from an artistic point of view, he's pretty horrible. Having more creative control doesn't mean what you're doing is good. Good but the same is still good, while original but bad is still bad.

I doubt he is pretty horrible because his movies make Marvel look worse. lol.


Look I get it, everyone here calling Snyder horrible all love and keep defending marvel films they ''think'' is the competitor. I get the marvel vs dc rivalry that used to be credible but this was when marvel had films like Logan and Spiderman 2 or X-Men 1, those days are over. DCEU trying to be like MCU is now blowing up in their faces and Snyder's vision is getting more vindication as days goes by, clear to me a lot of guys are not taking it well since they had all written Snyder off.

[green_garnish]

I doubt he is pretty horrible because his movies make Marvel look worse. lol.

This whole line of non- reasoning is pretty remarkable in its hubris. The audience is intentionally giving more money to movies they know are worse than Snyder movies, continuing to give that money in streaming and disc purchases, because Disney... will be mean to us? Not sure where this is going.

What exactly do you think is the motivation for the majority of ticket buyers, who know Snyder makes better movies than Marvel, to consistently support Snyder movies enormously less than MCU movies, or even other WB action/ adventure movies?

[Alan2099]

I doubt he is pretty horrible because his movies make Marvel look worse. lol.

According you and nobody else in this topic.

Look I get it, everyone here calling Snyder horrible all love and keep defending marvel films they ''think'' is the competitor. I get the marvel vs dc rivalry that used to be credible but this was when marvel had films like Logan and Spiderman 2 or X-Men 1, those days are over.

You don't get it. You are so far from getting it that you don't even know what "it" is. In the cases where somebody has managed to point you in the direction of "it" you can look right at it and still not know what it is. That's how far from getting it you are. You're not even in the same timezone as It.

Like Marvel movies vs liking Dc movies has nothing to do Marvel vs DC and the movies you're listing as the one "marvel fans" are arguing for aren't even the main marvel movies.

Further more, you're not even getting your own argument right. You're talking about movies Snyder made (such as Man of Steel and BvS) and then saying Marvel doesn';t have anything like them anymore, when Logan came out AFTER both of them.

DCEU trying to be like MCU is now blowing up in their faces and Snyder's vision is getting more vindication as days goes by, clear to me a lot of guys are not taking it well since they had all written Snyder off.

I have no idea HOW or WHY you think DC "trying to be like Marvel" is blowing up in it's face, when the more "marvel" styled movies like Shazam, Aquaman, Wonder Woman, and even Birds of Prey were all received far more positivly than the Snyder movies. Okay, sure there was a hiccup with Suicide Squad trying to be like Guardians and failing, but rather than going back to the Snyder pool, they doubled down and got the guy that DID Guardians of the Galaxy. That's hardly them trying to be "less like Marvel."

As for writing Snyder off, ... I will admit, this one baffles me. Nobody liked Man of Steel or BvS and the studio itself hated his original presentation of Justice League, and yet so many people are talking about how they want it. It's like adding two plus two and getting NASHVILLE for the answer. Somewhere something isn't communicating write and nobody has been able to explain it.

[SiegePerilous02]

I doubt he is pretty horrible because his movies make Marvel look worse. lol.

Lol. "Sure, Jan."

Look I get it, everyone here calling Snyder horrible all love and keep defending marvel films they ''think'' is the competitor. I get the marvel vs dc rivalry that used to be credible but this was when marvel had films like Logan and Spiderman 2 or X-Men 1, those days are over. DCEU trying to be like MCU is now blowing up in their faces and Snyder's vision is getting more vindication as days goes by, clear to me a lot of guys are not taking it well since they had all written Snyder off.

Snyder's films are bad and I say that as way more of a DC fan than a Marvel fan. The most I will do to defend MCU films (that don't need me as an internet rando to defend them, they are on top of the food chain) is that most of them are at worst just solid, inoffensive entertaining blockbusters. Yeah they can be safe and formulaic, but most of the general public goes to movies for simple entertainment to take their minds of the shitshow that is the real world for a couple hours.

I would like mainstream cinema to strive for more and be more experimental. But odds are even the best CBMS are still based off cartoon strip characters they also need to slap onto lunchboxes and back packs and devolve into loud CGI laden climaxes. It's kind of laughable to think of any comic book movie as high art cinema. They are not capable of being on that level and even if they were, Zack Snyder is definitely not the person capable of bringing them there.

[WebLurker]

I think we also want internal consistency. For instance, if Superman lifts a 747 with ease in one scene, he shouldn't struggle to lift a single engine prop plane in a later scene. However, if he struggles in both scenes, then the film does have internal consistency in establishing that this particular version of Superman is not as strong as previous versions.

Keeping internal logic consistent is a part of verisimilitude. Star Trek's warp drive and transporters aren't realistic, but if the show keeps the workings of them consistent, it's easier to accept their reality.

If you look at this from more of a artistic POV, Snyder is a better film maker than anyone from marvel.

That's the POV that leads me to see him as a bad filmmaker.

Ofcourse this does not mean the film makers from Marvel are bad, we dont know how good or bad they are because they have no heavy input on their films.

And that's why Iron Man 3 and Thor: Ragnarok had the fingerprints of their creators all over it or why the Russo brothers went into great detail on the Winter Solider audio commentary about how they approached the craftsmanship of making a conspiracy thriller? That's just insulting.

I don't dwell too much on cult but as you keep bringing it up, if anything feels cultish to me, I feel it more from the divided fandom of marvel because . To keep calling snyder fans a cult but ignore that there are some cult likes vibes among MCU is ironic. so cult like that some like to think marvel films started in 2008 and not 1998 or earlier.

That literally makes no coherent sense.

Studios dont need to listen to fans, talk of a cult. WB realised they were wrong to have treated Snyder they way they should, WB decided to correct course.

And that's why AT&T claimed that they authorized the Snyder Cut because the fans demanded it and Warner Bros. has stated that the project is a dead end? (Also, where does this WB treated Snyder badly thing come from? By all accounts, he wasn't delivering what they wanted and had personal reasons to leave the project. That's perfectly reasonable reasons to replace directors.

Again like I said, it's was hype. However it exposes a bigger problem that will happens with marvel feature films especially their xmen flicks, because MCU and some of their fans are banking on xmen interacting with other marvel heroes for ''good movies'', although that is not the main draw for great xmen stories or movies. it never has been and never will be.

You know, I think half your problem is that you project and create straw men.

Spiderman in movies is the most infamous prime example of downgrade, but you can use the recent mcu avengers game that flopped and was just not good, very mediocre to Spiderman PS4, you can use another example of the endgame directors saying they got some influence from Logan and that is not true, because unlike Logan that makes comic book movies feel credible, Endgame strips that away. you can use the recent marvel cartoons that does not live up to the greatness of their past. infact the old marvel cartoons are called less kid friendly and less mass manufactured to MCU movies.

What the literal heck do the video games and cartoons have to do with how Marvel Studios will or will not make their own movies? Absolutely nothing, since they come from different creative teams doing different stuff. Stay on topic, please.

A lot of disney old stuff are classics. their new films are not.

You need to stop moving the goal posts with red herrings. Whether or not Disney has produced anything that will become classic in the near future (and bear in mind that we're living in world where Frozen, Zootopia, and Moana are things), is irrelevant to the question of whether comedy movies become well remembered, and, as we can see, the answer is yes.

Snyder was correct here,
https://www.business-standard.com/ar...1100111_1.html.

This new Disney stuff are flavour of the week movies., Marvel, Star Wars Sequel trilogy, Live action animated movies Aladdin 2019 and Lion King 2019.

Maybe some of it is, but that's a case-by-case discussion that, as noted before is irrelevant to the question of wether movies that make use of humor are good or not.

Avengers remains popular among MCU fans, the most popular marvel MCU film is Winter Solider. Avengers is more of a guilty pleasure, Its not a film makers dream. Reading Avengers reviews in 2012, its sounds bad to compare it to reviews to the dark knight rises and that film had problems.

Between you and me, I do think Winter Solider is the best one to date. However, once again, intent vs. execution. Also, so what if it's not a serious as Dark Knight Rises? Is it good as the kind of movie its trying to be? That is the only question that matters. (Also, what's with all the Dark Knight Rises dissing, anyways?)

The 3rd cgi third act started with Avengers or maybe Transformers. There were many debate comparisons between Avengers and Man of Steel on the destructive 3d cgi third act.

Interesting.

Both did damage sure, However what makes Avengers worse is the damage is mostly played for fun, laughs and Jokes. It lacks the gravitas of Man of Steel The fact that people were left questioning superman, makes man of steel a better film to the generic superficial innocence fun of avengers.

That's an interesting perspective.

sadly what you said hurts Iron Man, RDJ reinventing him in all media shows the limitations of what marvel has become. it was easier for iron man to put a D-List character on the map, but the character should have grown from what RDJ did in all media.

why hugh jackman has an edge is because hugh jackman got more [B]challenging feats with movies ,even if some of the movies did not live up to expectations, he still got to push the character and the story. Iron Man by endgame was just too much of a caricature to be taken seriously.

Sadly, what you say is goalpost moving and red herrings, and nothing to do with which was more "iconic," at least as you originally used it.

Nah, its not positive. And calling it ''few posters'' who dont like the iron man/spidey thing is off. This one is a global dislike, Spiderman is an iconic figure, millions and millions of his fans were always going to reject the iron man thing.

As of 2021, the reception of these movies is that they are mostly all terrible today. disney is now trying to wipe out the new trilogy, the same is happening with MCU movies, when Scorsese said what he said in 2019, the reception of marvel that was already changing just hit rock bottom.There is a reason the first thing I asked was, why would anyone want a well received comic film because of fun and humor over another that pushes the genre higher than that in a way that is still commendable 20 years on.

To be honest I don't think anyone in Hollywood holds any new age dinsey films to some high artistic fountain, Pixar is not ...cant do no wrong anymore . Even if anyone does not like Snyder, at least he can call himself a working director that does is own thing, whose opinions matters.

Now I understand how Captain Kirk felt. "What?" indeed.