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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    Yeah. Put it this way, Robert Downey Jr's Iron Man is nothing like the Iron Man of the comics. If Iron Man were as well known as Batman and Superman, there would have been a bit of a backlash to making him such a comedy character. You see that with Spider-Man and people who don't like the Iron Man Jr angle
    Yeah, Tony Stark as a playboy? Blasphemy!

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    Yeah, Tony Stark as a playboy? Blasphemy!
    Tont Stark who cracks a joke every 30 secondsand has a hyper neurotic amped up way of speaking like a teenager who had too much coffee?

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    Tont Stark who cracks a joke every 30 secondsand has a hyper neurotic amped up way of speaking like a teenager who had too much coffee?
    He's done that plenty, usually in tech speak. He's evolved under different writers. He was snarky in the 80s, and pretty self righteous too, so much so that he pulled rank on Captain freakin' America. I don't see RDJ's interpretation that far from the 80s Stark, simply updated for modern times.

  4. #34
    My Face Is Up Here Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    I agree that BvS in many ways fit the atmosphere and tone of a 'Batman' story more than what we would expect from a Superman story. A 'middle ground', tonally, might be the World's Finest animated team-up from the 90's which IMO is the gold standard of Superman/Batman team-up stories.

    But...Snyder was trying to do something different with Superman in BvS. He was trying to look at Superman from Batman's perspective and the perspective of Batman's world. Or, at any rate, a darker, more violent and more cynical world. And such a world would view Superman as a force of destruction and as a potential (if not actual) threat. The whole movie is about getting Batman (and the world) to buy in to the idea that Superman truly is a beacon of hope, and a genuienly good guy fighting the good fight. Which of course inspires the creation of the Justice League. The culmination of that story (and we'll see Snyder's take on it soon) is Superman returning from the grave as a great hero and in a moment of ultimate triumph saving the world from its greatest threat and being hailed as an undisputed hero.

    It is a very different take on Superman from what we're used to - not necessarily because Superman himself is different, but because the world is different. Most Superman adaptations, particularly in other media, have the world accept him as a savior, hero and all-round good guy pretty rapidly. Snyder's films present a more 'realistic' take and ask - what if that wasn't the case? A guy who dresses up like a bat to violently beat up criminals wouldn't immediately be hailed as a hero by the public...why would an alien with God-like powers who leaves destruction in his wake be viewed any more benignly?
    I actually agree with that. Superman is basically Superman. It's the world around him that is different. I found him inspiring in MoS not in spite of everything else but because of it. It's easy to be noble in a world that regularly rewards you for it. It's harder in a realistic world.

    Good point that BvS tries to get us to see Superman from Batman's view yet also see that Batman's view is really skewed. There's definitely a lot of overreach and failure to get the audience to see some of the salient points such as Batman suffering from PTSD and that, sometimes, something as simple as the slightest connection to what he's persecuting can make such a person realize how irrational he's become when the irrationality is from being in shock.
    Power with Girl is better.

  5. #35
    My Face Is Up Here Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    He's done that plenty, usually in tech speak. He's evolved under different writers. He was snarky in the 80s, and pretty self righteous too, so much so that he pulled rank on Captain freakin' America. I don't see RDJ's interpretation that far from the 80s Stark, simply updated for modern times.
    Stark may have devolved from the suave figure he originally was but it really the Ultimate Universe that took him all-out into being essentially a 13 year old romantically. I think main universe Stark started following that perhaps as a setup for RDJ's portrayal. But most of the movie audience had no idea what Stark's personality was until the movies.
    Power with Girl is better.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerz79 View Post
    Batman from West to Burton and Nolan had vastly different interpretation but I will say from Kirk Alyn and George Reeves to Christopher Reeve on film to Dean Cain and Tom Welling on tv along with the Superboy tv show Supes has always been shown as pretty much the same to going against that grain would and did IMO cause issues for him.
    Well, with Batman, starting Frank Miller's work in the mid-80's, there's broadly been a kind of cohesive vision of the character as a darker noir-ish figure of the night. The comics, Burton movies, BTAS, animated movies, Nolanverse, Arkhamverse, Batfleck and now Matt Reeves' Batman are all pretty different from each other on a deeper level, but they're all variations on the same broad theme. The real outliers when it comes to Batman are the Adam West show (which has seen a resurgence in popularity lately with the Batman '66 comics and animated movies) and the BatB cartoon. But the Batman fanbase, by and large, seems more accepting of these now 'divergent' takes on the mythos than Superman fans are of any divergences, real or perceived, from their vision of the character.

  7. #37
    Ultimate Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    The other pop culture juggernaut A-Listers from marvel after Spiderman and X-men were the Fantastic 4. There were 2 fox movies that was fairly successful though I never got the critical hate for those films, when I think they are somewhat like Antman, Avengers and Spiderman homecoming level type of comic films. fun, colourful, silly, cgi, comic bookie generic plot and all that jazz.
    Never saw any of the F4 movies (jokes that the Incredibles were unofficial F4 movies aside), so I couldn't say why they didn't find a following that stuff you think was on their level did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Snyder is right but what I wish he should have added was that DCU never needed to compete so quickly with marvel with the DCU. DCU does not need to be a thing.
    It was probably always going to be a thing sooner or later, and seeing as it's how the source material was set up, there is a lot of logic for doing it (heck, I think the DCEU is probably the most logical cinematic universe project outside of the MCU, save for stuff like Star Trek and Star Wars, which have enough scope and lore to support that kind of undertaking). We had the DCAU back in the day on the small screen, so getting something like that on the big screen would be worth it if it can be done well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    When I saw this scene from BvS. I was unhappy.

    It took MCU years and almost 15 hours of films to build to the Avengers crossover movie. Snyder tried to do that in 5 minutes and that was wrong.
    Yeah, whoever signed off on that (Snyder and/or others) did not learn the lessons from Marvel Studios on cinematic universe construction. Stopping the movie to show people adds for movies they were hoping to make next was really bad. Had that been repurposed as a post-credits scene (e.g. Batman showing Wonder Woman what he'd found on the drive and suggesting to her that they reach out to these people to make an alliance because of his sixth sense that there was going to be a sequel), that would've worked a lot better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    the MCU characters that got to be in the MCU was a perfect setting since no one knew most of them. Additionally this is why you are right that spiderman in the MCU is so wishy washy and so will X-Men. I think with xmen it will be worse with the friction between MCU and fans. I means what can you truly expect from ''Disney x-men''.
    People keep telling me here that fans don't like how the MCU adapted Spider-Man and don't want them to do the X-Men, but outside in the real world, all I see is that they like MCU Spider-Man and trust Marvel Studios to do the X-Men (presumably how they shown that they know how to adapt their own stuff and make it popular). Weird, isn't it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    I will take a Snyder's wolverine film over that. I say this because I know Snyder wanted to make a wolverine film in the 90s.
    Interesting. Wolverine might've been a better choice for Snyder then Superman, but I don't know. Snyder's movies (of what I've seen) really seem to rooted in nihilism. While Wolverine's past is not a happy one and he's not exactly looking to better days ahead, he's not a totally hopeless character. I mean Logan, a superhero movie that actually was made for adults, knew that and while reframing him as someone who'd lead a tragic life and wasn't able to completely escape that at the end, was still someone who could be called a hero and was given a send off reflecting that. (Long story short, I don't think Snyder would've been a good choice for the job.)


    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    DCU is gone tonally. Every DCU movie now is like a copy of MCU. Grace Randolph in her wonder woman 84 review said the movie was very cartoony. the only tone that will be different in a DC film are DC films not part of the DCU. The Batman, Joker.
    Time will tell, won't it?
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    I actually agree with that. Superman is basically Superman. It's the world around him that is different. I found him inspiring in MoS not in spite of everything else but because of it. It's easy to be noble in a world that regularly rewards you for it. It's harder in a realistic world.
    That'd a valid argument for Man of Steel, not the psycho in Superman's cape shown in B vs S. Snyder's Superman was profoundly impacted by the "realistic" world around him, that's the gimmick - it was Donner's Superman where Superman is in the real world. But the movies rarely tackle anything in making Superman noble, he's just a meathead who hits things and doesn't react to the world exploring around him. MOS also had problems with that Superman, but they weren't as horrid as the second attempt.

    Good point that BvS tries to get us to see Superman from Batman's view yet also see that Batman's view is really skewed. There's definitely a lot of overreach and failure to get the audience to see some of the salient points such as Batman suffering from PTSD and that, sometimes, something as simple as the slightest connection to what he's persecuting can make such a person realize how irrational he's become when the irrationality is from being in shock.
    The movie may be from Bruce's POV, but Snyder does a horrible job articulating what he wants the audience to feel: for example, he wanted the audience to side with Superman. The narrative never implies that Batman's an unreliable narrator, Superman acts the same when he's not around Batman. Snyder really should have done more exploring Batman's PTSD, like Shane Black did with Iron Man instead he does nothing substantial with it and drops the thread immediately as though Batman's cured once he becomes friends with Superman.

    This is Superman as Snyder saw him:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rB-FvIrIML4

    This is how he's supposed to be:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dr815L5qKI

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    Wonder Woman, Aquaman and Shazam! prove you wrong there.

    The one character who's conventionally 'light-hearted' that Snyder arguably put a darker spin on was Superman, and I'd argue that it was a necessary reinvention of the character to break away from the Donner/Reeve mold. Also, Superman himself was a fairly hopeful and optimistic character in his movies (albeit a bit more 'realistically' so). It was the world around him that was dark.
    Uhmmm you realize literally my next sentence was

    Thankful with a couple of movies they broke that cycle
    There was nothing to prove wrong. And again there should not be a consistent tone from either studio it should vary from story and character, Marvel gets a slight pass(at least from me) because of characters they have used so far none of them arguably should have a consistent darker tone if Marvel use the same tone action-comedy tone for Punisher, Wolverine, Blade, and Daredevil then Marvel should be criticized like how people at times hit up DC.

    Anyways Superman should not be dark, now a story should be darker or more serious, I mean Doomsday storyline/Death of superman that is a darker story but overall the tone of his movies shouldn't be dark. Anyway, it looks like DC has figured out they need multiple styles.

    This is just an observation and an opinion but being darker and more serious has a higher degree of difficulty in always pleasing the audience, there is very little margin for error the more serious you make a movie. Also if you do anything too much at some point the audience will get tired but too much darkness will chase people the best example of this Walking Dead when Negan hit some people who were just done. While doing something lighter it takes far longer for people to get tired of it. I think you only get a 3 movie window being dark before people go well I have had enough of that. Where being lighter has a longer leash just requires one movie out of series of movie to be darker or carry higher stakes ala Infinity wars or Empire strike back. I know what tone I am leaning to overall if I am trying to make money.

  10. #40
    Extraordinary Member Gaastra's Avatar
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    My trouble is synder is still stuck in the "extreme" "dark and gritty" 90s. Everything has to be "dark and extreme cool!"

    You want jimmy in superman? Ok. But he will be shot in the face 5 min in as that's "extreme and cool!"

    Lets have wonder woman fail to save people in the unmade cut of jl then be depressed all movie with no fun! Why? It's "extreme and dark and cool!"

    Animaniacs did do a funny spoof of it.



    And yes comments are picking on the movie!

    This one was funny.

    Warner bros animation: constantly makes fun of BvS and the DCCU.

    Warner bros studios: spends several million dollars to make justice league a mini series.
    Last edited by Gaastra; 12-26-2020 at 07:56 AM.

  11. #41
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    It is a very different take on Superman from what we're used to - not necessarily because Superman himself is different, but because the world is different. Most Superman adaptations, particularly in other media, have the world accept him as a savior, hero and all-round good guy pretty rapidly. Snyder's films present a more 'realistic' take and ask - what if that wasn't the case? A guy who dresses up like a bat to violently beat up criminals wouldn't immediately be hailed as a hero by the public...why would an alien with God-like powers who leaves destruction in his wake be viewed any more benignly?
    I really don't think Snyder made the right decision on that. People walked into a Superman movie, and got a character that wasn't treated like Superman. Imagine going to a Lethal Weapon movie and seeing the cops be immediately put on suspension or put on a deskjob as soon as they start roughing up a suspect. It may be more realistic, but it's not what people are here for.

  12. #42
    Astonishing Member useridgoeshere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    Yeah. Put it this way, Robert Downey Jr's Iron Man is nothing like the Iron Man of the comics. If Iron Man were as well known as Batman and Superman, there would have been a bit of a backlash to making him such a comedy character. You see that with Spider-Man and people who don't like the Iron Man Jr angle
    Don’t confuse fanboy complaining with actual reception. MCU Spider-man is well-received.

    This is sad. So many excuses from Snyder. People like good movies. Burton’s Batman was nothing like the most famous live-action Batman of the time - Adam West. Nolan’s was nothing like Burton’s. When Singer tried to remake Donner’s Superman, it failed. Joker can be anything.

    DC characters have been changed constantly and repeatedly. If the movies are good, the past movies/TV don’t matter.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Never saw any of the F4 movies (jokes that the Incredibles were unofficial F4 movies aside), so I couldn't say why they didn't find a following that stuff you think was on their level did.
    ?
    Those movies did, I think back then the genre wasdifferent. the comics films back then were X-Men 2, Spiderman 2 and Batman Begins , Superman Returns, V for Vendetta, so although the F4 movies were very MCU, there was no room for those type of films yet.

    People keep telling me here that fans don't like how the MCU adapted Spider-Man and don't want them to do the X-Men, but outside in the real world, all I see is that they like MCU Spider-Man and trust Marvel Studios to do the X-Men (presumably how they shown that they know how to adapt their own stuff and make it popular). Weird, isn't it.
    In the real world, there seem to be a resentment for anything disney has tried to reboot. , i remember this topic on the x books board and we were left with the Feige fans doing a shouting match on x-fans while failing to address what they were saying. this sums of the real world. At least I know Snyder would not shy away from any ''controversial'' xmen storyline like MCU are going to do.


    Time will tell, won't it?
    If what some are saying about wonder woman 1884 is true, the time is here.

  14. #44
    Ultimate Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Those movies did, I think back then the genre wasdifferent. the comics films back then were X-Men 2, Spiderman 2 and Batman Begins , Superman Returns, V for Vendetta, so although the F4 movies were very MCU, there was no room for those type of films yet.
    Dunno, seeing as the Raimi Spider-Man movies are the most MCU-like superhero movies outside of the MCU itself, not sure that the F4 movies being MCU-like

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    In the real world, there seem to be a resentment for anything disney has tried to reboot.
    Where?

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    i remember this topic on the x books board and we were left with the Feige fans doing a shouting match on x-fans while failing to address what they were saying. this sums of the real world.
    I was there, too; wasn't so much of a failure to communicate as it was people wanting different things. Remember being the odd one out, seeing as I was in favor of the Fox series continuing, but was willing to give the MCU reboot a chance, since we were getting it anyways.

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    At least I know Snyder would not shy away from any ''controversial'' xmen storyline like MCU are going to do.
    Honestly, I've found Snyder to be lacking where that's concerned. But that's me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    If what some are saying about wonder woman 1884 is true, the time is here.
    Maybe. Course, the original Wonder Woman had more in common with the MCU then the stuff like the Dark Knight trilogy or the Snyderverse...
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    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  15. #45
    My Face Is Up Here Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    That'd a valid argument for Man of Steel, not the psycho in Superman's cape shown in B vs S. Snyder's Superman was profoundly impacted by the "realistic" world around him, that's the gimmick - it was Donner's Superman where Superman is in the real world. But the movies rarely tackle anything in making Superman noble, he's just a meathead who hits things and doesn't react to the world exploring around him. MOS also had problems with that Superman, but they weren't as horrid as the second attempt.



    The movie may be from Bruce's POV, but Snyder does a horrible job articulating what he wants the audience to feel: for example, he wanted the audience to side with Superman. The narrative never implies that Batman's an unreliable narrator, Superman acts the same when he's not around Batman. Snyder really should have done more exploring Batman's PTSD, like Shane Black did with Iron Man instead he does nothing substantial with it and drops the thread immediately as though Batman's cured once he becomes friends with Superman.

    This is Superman as Snyder saw him:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rB-FvIrIML4

    This is how he's supposed to be:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dr815L5qKI
    Love the first Donner movie but "real world"? It may have seemed so at the time but it wasn't. A guy with those kinds of powers at those levels and everyone including the President and the politicians just trust him? Even in the 1970s, that's unrealistic. In fact, any reasonable person would suspect he sabotaged Air Force One himself in order to rescue it and be a hero. The coincidence of that happening on his first appearance almost demands such a suspicion.

    I'm not saying they should have gone in a darker direction. I'm just saying that I accept and love it, not that I think it's realistic.

    Meanwhile, MoS was made in a time when one terrorist act brought the bigotry surging to the surface in a lot of people and the fear, the desire to throw all people of a certain ethnicity out of the country and persecute them as in "If one of them did it, they all did it and would do it".

    Now, into this time appears a being from another planet with powers so great he cannot be stopped. It's totally realistic that there would be a massive distrust, fear and desire to be rid of him. On the other hand, it's also very realistic that there would be cults formed to worship him as a god.

    I'm not saying that all of it was presented in the best way. Far from it. But, in essence, it is far more realistic.

    I like both takes, Reeve and Cavill. I love the Reeve take a lot more but that's because it's largely a feel good experience and more of my youth. But more realistic? Not even remotely.

    Regarding B v S, I thought the presentation was horrible. But I thought it was clear Superman was not what Batman envisioned him to be and that Batman was completely over the edge. Even Alfred is trying to tell him that this is madness and not based on any evidence. Superman was clearly the good guy of the situation. Batman is literally trying to kill him based on what Superman has the potential to do but has shown no indication of doing.

    There is no doubt that Snyder should have gotten into more detail about how PTSD works and about how Superman became such a hero.
    Last edited by Powerboy; 12-26-2020 at 11:08 AM.
    Power with Girl is better.

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