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  1. #46
    My Face Is Up Here Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    That'd a valid argument for Man of Steel, not the psycho in Superman's cape shown in B vs S. Snyder's Superman was profoundly impacted by the "realistic" world around him, that's the gimmick - it was Donner's Superman where Superman is in the real world. But the movies rarely tackle anything in making Superman noble, he's just a meathead who hits things and doesn't react to the world exploring around him. MOS also had problems with that Superman, but they weren't as horrid as the second attempt.



    The movie may be from Bruce's POV, but Snyder does a horrible job articulating what he wants the audience to feel: for example, he wanted the audience to side with Superman. The narrative never implies that Batman's an unreliable narrator, Superman acts the same when he's not around Batman. Snyder really should have done more exploring Batman's PTSD, like Shane Black did with Iron Man instead he does nothing substantial with it and drops the thread immediately as though Batman's cured once he becomes friends with Superman.

    This is Superman as Snyder saw him:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rB-FvIrIML4

    This is how he's supposed to be:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dr815L5qKI
    Hmm. What do you think the Superman of Supergirl would say and do if he ran into the Batman of B v S?

    What do you think the Superman of B v S would do if he walked into a room and everyone wanted to meet and congratulate him as a hero without reacting like he was a god that they worshipped?
    Power with Girl is better.

  2. #47
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    Batman was the J. Jonah Jameson of BvS. Everytime Superman does anything, bats is shouting about him being a menace that must be stopped.

    However we're supposed to take Batman seriously.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    Hmm. What do you think the Superman of Supergirl would say and do if he ran into the Batman of B v S?
    They'd be horrified, maybe try to get through him and he's end up threatening them at some point.

    What do you think the Superman of B v S would do if he walked into a room and everyone wanted to meet and congratulate him as a hero without reacting like he was a god that they worshipped?
    I don't think he'd know how to do that properly so he'd fumble, pout and get out of there ASAP. Her needs social training for situations like that and he has none he doesn't even acknowledge that it's a problem for him.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    Love the first Donner movie but "real world"? It may have seemed so at the time but it wasn't. A guy with those kinds of powers at those levels and everyone including the President and the politicians just trust him? Even in the 1970s, that's unrealistic. In fact, any reasonable person would suspect he sabotaged Air Force One himself in order to rescue it and be a hero. The coincidence of that happening on his first appearance almost demands such a suspicion.

    I'm not saying they should have gone in a darker direction. I'm just saying that I accept and love it, not that I think it's realistic.

    Meanwhile, MoS was made in a time when one terrorist act brought the bigotry surging to the surface in a lot of people and the fear, the desire to throw all people of a certain ethnicity out of the country and persecute them as in "If one of them did it, they all did it and would do it".

    Now, into this time appears a being from another planet with powers so great he cannot be stopped. It's totally realistic that there would be a massive distrust, fear and desire to be rid of him. On the other hand, it's also very realistic that there would be cults formed to worship him as a god.

    I'm not saying that all of it was presented in the best way. Far from it. But, in essence, it is far more realistic.

    I like both takes, Reeve and Cavill. I love the Reeve take a lot more but that's because it's largely a feel good experience and more of my youth. But more realistic? Not even remotely.
    There's merit in that argument but that was what Donner was going for, the world being real with Superman being a presence in it. I know about 9/11, except the film did more than that Superman was raised by conservatives who were far too paranoid, didn't believe in helping people and we have no indication they helped Clark protect himself, like covering his tracks, when he did become a hero. We don't even know why Clark changed his mind about not hiding himself to protect people, that's a large gap missing from Man of Steel. Snyder's world has a strong aesthetic that makes it hyper-real, Donner's was more like Nolan's.

    Regarding B v S, I thought the presentation was horrible. But I thought it was clear Superman was not what Batman envisioned him to be and that Batman was completely over the edge. Even Alfred is trying to tell him that this is madness and not based on any evidence. Superman was clearly the good guy of the situation. Batman is literally trying to kill him based on what Superman has the potential to do but has shown no indication of doing.
    Superman could barely control himself form burning Lex into a red smear with his heat vision when he's angry. It's true Batman was over the edge but Superman was not presented well as being in the right he was verging on being violently unhinged around normal people. Superman used language about killing Batman if he didn't stop, someone he never met before. Both of them were dangerous maniacs. The Superman from Man of Steel who could speak to anyone with confidence was long gone, and we didn't get much of an argument from his perspective - he just went there because Lex blackmailed him. He never presents a good argument for why Batman should trust him when they're together.

    There is no doubt that Snyder should have gotten into more detail about how PTSD works and about how Superman became such a hero.
    Agreed.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    Now, into this time appears a being from another planet with powers so great he cannot be stopped. It's totally realistic that there would be a massive distrust, fear and desire to be rid of him. On the other hand, it's also very realistic that there would be cults formed to worship him as a god.

    I'm not saying that all of it was presented in the best way. Far from it. But, in essence, it is far more realistic.
    Only because Snyder completely misses the point of Superman. The biggest mistake that movie makes is DIVIDING Superman from his humanity.

    Superman's power comes from his Kryptonian biology. But everything good about him, everything that makes him a hero comes from his upbringing by the Kents. From us. It's the part of him that's human that makes him special.

    The film has no interest in that. Instead, everything that makes Superman special comes from his alien heritage. His powers, his suit. Even his symbol. All the Kents give him is fear. He isn't saving people becauss of the Kents, he's saving them IN SPITE of his upbringing. Where Pa Kent literally commits suicide to make sure Clark understands he must hide his differences. There is no emphasis on reflecting his humanity, on showing people how alike us he is. It's all about hiding his other.

    Man of Steel's Superman isn't the best of what we could be, a reflection on the grace at the heart of humanity. He's an alien messiah who needs to save us from ourselves and our grimy, dirty fear.

    Which IS very Zack Snyder. But doesn't make for a great Superman.

  6. #51
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Superman could barely control himself form burning Lex into a red smear with his heat vision when he's angry. It's true Batman was over the edge but Superman was not presented well as being in the right he was verging on being violently unhinged around normal people. Superman used language about killing Batman if he didn't stop, someone he never met before. Both of them were dangerous maniacs. The Superman from Man of Steel who could speak to anyone with confidence was long gone, and we didn't get much of an argument from his perspective - he just went there because Lex blackmailed him. He never presents a good argument for why Batman should trust him when they're together.
    To be fair, seeing pictures of your kidnapped mother after she's been roughed up would naturally elicit that reaction. And he's flared his angry laser eyes in the comics before. It's an overused cliche at this point, but it's there.

    The movie and Clark escalate in stupidity from that scene, but Lex is not a normal person; he's a maniac who kidnapped his mother and was threatening to kill her. I'd cut Clark some slack in this instance.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    Only because Snyder completely misses the point of Superman. The biggest mistake that movie makes is DIVIDING Superman from his humanity.

    Superman's power comes from his Kryptonian biology. But everything good about him, everything that makes him a hero comes from his upbringing by the Kents. From us. It's the part of him that's human that makes him special.

    The film has no interest in that. Instead, everything that makes Superman special comes from his alien heritage. His powers, his suit. Even his symbol. All the Kents give him is fear. He isn't saving people becauss of the Kents, he's saving them IN SPITE of his upbringing. Where Pa Kent literally commits suicide to make sure Clark understands he must hide his differences. There is no emphasis on reflecting his humanity, on showing people how alike us he is. It's all about hiding his other.

    Man of Steel's Superman isn't the best of what we could be, a reflection on the grace at the heart of humanity. He's an alien messiah who needs to save us from ourselves and our grimy, dirty fear.

    Which IS very Zack Snyder. But doesn't make for a great Superman.
    I wouldn't say that Snyder's Superman is divorced from humanity just because he's not a Boy Scout or a paragon of virtue. Let's not forget that this is a version of Superman who discovers his Kryptonian origins in his early thirties! Okay, granted, he knew about the rocket since he was in his early teens but still...

    I see him as someone who just wants to help out, like any other version of Superman. It's the rest of the world which sees him as either a savior or a threat - which projects these perceptions and feelings onto him. The montage from BvS with the TV commentators discussing Superman from a political and religious perspective until finally someone says "Maybe he's just a guy who wants to do the right thing" is one of my favorite Superman-related scenes in all media.

    Dunno if this was part of Snyder's original script or something Whedon threw in (we'll find out soon enough I guess) but I loved the part where Bruce tells Alfred that Superman was more human than he was - "He had a job, fell in love...". Cavill's Clark wasn't interested in being a messiah.

    I realize that this more 'realistic' take on Superman's world isn't to everyone's tastes. Which actually proves Snyder's point...that we need a Multiverse and multiple takes on the character to co-exist. So fans of the more Donner-esq Superman can get their fix, and fans of more complex takes on the character can get their fix too.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by useridgoeshere View Post
    Don’t confuse fanboy complaining with actual reception. MCU Spider-man is well-received.

    This is sad. So many excuses from Snyder. People like good movies. Burton’s Batman was nothing like the most famous live-action Batman of the time - Adam West. Nolan’s was nothing like Burton’s. When Singer tried to remake Donner’s Superman, it failed. Joker can be anything.

    DC characters have been changed constantly and repeatedly. If the movies are good, the past movies/TV don’t matter.
    Exactly this.

    A lot of "fanboy" arguments don't follow the actual reality. At all. The MCU Spider-man movies have been very well received and I believe the last one grossed more than the first one (?). People are loving those movies.

    DC movies aren't been criticized because the characters have been changed, it's because some of them have not been good.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    Only because Snyder completely misses the point of Superman. The biggest mistake that movie makes is DIVIDING Superman from his humanity.

    Superman's power comes from his Kryptonian biology. But everything good about him, everything that makes him a hero comes from his upbringing by the Kents. From us. It's the part of him that's human that makes him special.

    The film has no interest in that. Instead, everything that makes Superman special comes from his alien heritage. His powers, his suit. Even his symbol. All the Kents give him is fear. He isn't saving people becauss of the Kents, he's saving them IN SPITE of his upbringing. Where Pa Kent literally commits suicide to make sure Clark understands he must hide his differences. There is no emphasis on reflecting his humanity, on showing people how alike us he is. It's all about hiding his other.

    Man of Steel's Superman isn't the best of what we could be, a reflection on the grace at the heart of humanity. He's an alien messiah who needs to save us from ourselves and our grimy, dirty fear.

    Which IS very Zack Snyder. But doesn't make for a great Superman.
    The humans in Man of Steel are vital in stopping Zod. They aren't helpless pawns who only serve to highlight Superman's goodness and their are plenty of good and kind humans in the movie.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    Batman was the J. Jonah Jameson of BvS. Everytime Superman does anything, bats is shouting about him being a menace that must be stopped.

    However we're supposed to take Batman seriously.
    No we are not.

  11. #56
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    edited post. nvm. This idiocy isn't worth responding to.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 12-27-2020 at 03:13 AM.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Dunno, seeing as the Raimi Spider-Man movies are the most MCU-like superhero movies outside of the MCU itself, not sure that the F4 movies being MCU-like
    .
    Maybe Iron Man 1 was the closest but not the rest. Tobey Maguire fans and Tom Holland fans can barely get along. this is how different MCU and Sam Raimi movies are.
    Where?
    Marvel movies, marvel cartoons, star wars, Spiderman cartoons.

    I was there, too; wasn't so much of a failure to communicate as it was people wanting different things. Remember being the odd one out, seeing as I was in favor of the Fox series continuing, but was willing to give the MCU reboot a chance, since we were getting it anyways.
    the x-fans not feige fans on that thread held it better since they actually had substance in their feige argument and could bring up so many xmen stories and some past fox stuff to directly show feige isn't all that, I remember how one feige fan blew up at me personally when I said, no Feige movie can and will ever have the smart style story telling or visual treat of Legion, while failing to discuss anything i said about Legion and MCU that was wrong.

    Honestly, I've found Snyder to be lacking where that's concerned. But that's me.
    man of steel would have been a great x-film if i just edit some of the fight scenes.

    Maybe. Course, the original Wonder Woman had more in common with the MCU then the stuff like the Dark Knight trilogy or the Snyderverse..
    Wonder woman was mostly its own thing, I will put this film in the same type of the sam raimi spiderman films .i can see the final act of wonder woman leaning more MCU.with the big cgi fights.

    it looks like WB and Patty have gone overboard with dc trying to copy marvel with wonder woman 84 and its a dame shame because the 2017 film had something good going that was its own.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    Exactly this.

    A lot of "fanboy" arguments don't follow the actual reality. At all. The MCU Spider-man movies have been very well received and I believe the last one grossed more than the first one (?). People are loving those movies.

    DC movies aren't been criticized because the characters have been changed, it's because some of them have not been good.
    I don't think anyone is arguing that the MCU Spider-Man movies haven't been well-received. It's just that there are some fans who inevitably compare them, sometimes unfavorably, to the Sam Raimi movies. Or at any rate, it's a point of discussion. This dissonance doesn't exist much when it comes to, say, Iron Man, where the MCU take is the first major adaptation of the character that has really captured the public's imagination.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    it looks like WB and Patty have gone overboard with dc trying to copy marvel with wonder woman 84 and its a dame shame because the 2017 film had something good going that was its own.
    Jenkins' is not copying Marvel, that's a vintage Wonder Woman type of story. She's copying Donner's Superman. Wonder Woman can be really cheesy and corny at times, it's part of the charm.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Jenkins' is not copying Marvel, that's a vintage Wonder Woman type of story. She's copying Donner's Superman. Wonder Woman can be really cheesy and corny at times, it's part of the charm.
    This. The first WW film was broadly inspired by Donner's Superman in terms of how the origin story is structured, and WW '84 seems to be inspired heavily by Lester's 80's sequels to that movie.

    I agree that Aquaman is a lot more inspired by the MCU. Then again, a lot of the MCU origin films, including and especially the original - Iron Man - were inspired by Batman Begins, IMO.

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