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  1. #61
    Ultimate Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Maybe Iron Man 1 was the closest but not the rest. Tobey Maguire fans and Tom Holland fans can barely get along. this is how different MCU and Sam Raimi movies are.
    Sorry to burst your bubble, but I am a fan of both. Also, they're that different? Embracing of the silly nature of the source material, faithful replication of the look and tone, strong character focus, humor throughout the narrative? That's exactly how the MCU rolls.


    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Marvel movies, marvel cartoons, star wars, Spiderman cartoons.
    Haven't followed the Marvel cartoons, so no clue about that (although I will concede that the art style didn't appeal to me). Sadly, people in the real world generally love the Marvel movies. Same with Star Wars, which has been overall a success (and yes, the fans hate it, but their pathological hated of Star Wars is normal and would be there no matter who was making it, so that's to be expected). I get it that you have a great deal of hatred for Disney and the MCU, but there's a difference between having your own opinion and not wanting to accept that it's not a popular one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    the x-fans not feige fans on that thread held it better since they actually had substance in their feige argument and could bring up so many xmen stories and some past fox stuff to directly show feige isn't all that...
    Except for the fact that until Feige supervised an MCU X-Men movie, there's nothing to go on how well the adaptation would or would not work, that you have to ignore the goofy stuff that the franchise also has in its DNA, and there is something to be said for the Fox series' chronic unevenness (and am saying this as someone who does like that series overall). Frankly, I think that saying Feige has the power to redeem or destroy the X-Men movies is premature, at best. Let him do what he will. If we don't like it, we don't have to watch it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    ...I remember how one feige fan blew up at me personally when I said, no Feige movie can and will ever have the smart style story telling or visual treat of Legion, while failing to discuss anything i said about Legion and MCU that was wrong.
    Didn't watch Legion, so I couldn't directly compare, however, seeing as Feige supervised the Guardians of the Galaxy movies, Doctor Strange, and Thor: Ragnarok, he's no slouch when it comes to getting people who know how to make impressive visuals sequences.

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    man of steel would have been a great x-film if i just edit some of the fight scenes.
    Yeah?

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Wonder woman was mostly its own thing, I will put this film in the same type of the sam raimi spiderman films .i can see the final act of wonder woman leaning more MCU.with the big cgi fights.
    Just like with Raimi, that doesn' really make any sense. Once again, character focus, use of humor, and, in this case, hopeful tone over the nihilism of the Snyderverse that then made up the rest of the DCEU. Sorry, but I don't see it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    looks like WB and Patty have gone overboard with dc trying to copy marvel with wonder woman 84 and its a dame shame because the 2017 film had something good going that was its own.
    Haven't had a chance to see it yet, so no spoilers please.
    Last edited by WebLurker; 12-27-2020 at 08:55 PM.
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  2. #62
    Fantastic Member Stick Figure's Avatar
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    I love MOS and it’s the definitive Superman to me. I don’t think having him fight Batman was a great follow up. I like the movie but I think we needed to see both characters again before they met. BvS feels like we’re missing a chapter.

    I don’t buy audience have a set idea of Superman because of the old movies. I don’t know anyone under 30 who enjoys those films. I don’t watch the Batman to show either. None of those versions are relevant with audiences under 50 I don’t think.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    I don't think anyone is arguing that the MCU Spider-Man movies haven't been well-received. It's just that there are some fans who inevitably compare them, sometimes unfavorably, to the Sam Raimi movies. Or at any rate, it's a point of discussion. This dissonance doesn't exist much when it comes to, say, Iron Man, where the MCU take is the first major adaptation of the character that has really captured the public's imagination.
    It's past time now we start categorising a well received movie. its mcu well received, which means nothing in the larger marvel movie history that I will say began with Blade.

    One of the main edge the sam raimi movies have with their reception is the film making experiences of those films, that was what put extra weight to the acclaim, same with the Bryan singer x-men movies. William Dafoe pointed that out when he explained the difference between tobey maguire's spiderman and holland's spiderman.

    does anyone even take a well received mcu movie to heart any more? honesty I think even some mcu fans may be growing tired of the well received mcu movies only because they are fun with humour.

    . This dissonance doesn't exist much when it comes to, say, Iron Man, where the MCU take is the first major adaptation of the character that has really captured the public's imagination.
    the first Iron Man movie was good and introduced a D list character very well. Additionally you could not compare it to any adaption of iron man because he had none in contrast to say, maybe the first x-men movie. a lot of fans were pissed off that movie rogue was playing a more kitty pryde or jubilee role because unlike iron man, people read xmen comics and those that did not, saw the 90s cartoon.

    Iron Man 1 was the perfect movie for the character.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Sorry to burst your bubble, but I am a fan of both. Also, they're that different? Embracing of the silly nature of the source material, faithful replication of the look and tone, strong character focus, humor throughout the narrative? That's exactly how the MCU rolls.
    .
    Sam Raimi's Spiderman was Spiderman that represented why he was such an iconic character. It showed how the universe of spiderman works, the only adaption that has come close to this so far is that video game he has on PS4.

    that...
    Except for the fact that until Feige supervised an MCU X-Men movie, there's nothing to go on how well the adaptation would or would not work, that you have to ignore the goofy stuff that the franchise also has in its DNA, and there is something to be said for the Fox series' chronic unevenness (and am saying this as someone who does like that series overall). Frankly, I think that saying Feige has the power to redeem or destroy the X-Men movies is premature, at best. Let him do what he will. If we don't like it, we don't have to watch it.
    Feige has a resume of comic book movies. To be kind, they all should be kept far away from the X-Universe. Many Feige supporters could make up their mind about him. one minute they tell us it is great feige will do xmen, the next minute they tell us we should wait until the final product. The wait argument usually happens when the x-fans bring up something from the x-universe and ask the feige fans to show us something similar and they could not. I believe this is why one of them blew up at me, I asked him to show me an MCU movie that cut deep into mental illness as Legion did and he could not.

    Didn't watch Legion, so I couldn't directly compare, however, seeing as Feige supervised the Guardians of the Galaxy movies, Doctor Strange, and Thor: Ragnarok, he's no slouch when it comes to getting people who know how to make impressive visuals sequences.
    Legion is in a different class to those films, no one could put Thor Ragnarok and GOTG in the same class as Logan in 2017 but somehow they will want to put Legion there.I don't think Fiege has the mindset to understand Legion. Snyder has a better chance of doing that even if he may not get it 100% right.

    I don't know if this is a coincidence but Patty tweeted today that sam raimi spiderman were her favourite comic movies with Donner Superman. The first wonder woman movie for like 75% was its own thing and similar to those films.A film Snyder did produce.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Jenkins' is not copying Marvel, that's a vintage Wonder Woman type of story. She's copying Donner's Superman. Wonder Woman can be really cheesy and corny at times, it's part of the charm.
    DC has been trying to copy marvel since justice league. I know Snyder will never say this upfront but I know his dislike for justice league 2016 is part of this reason.
    Last edited by Castle; 12-27-2020 at 02:06 PM.

  5. #65
    Anyone. Anywhere.Anytime. Arsenal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stick Figure View Post
    I don’t buy audience have a set idea of Superman because of the old movies. I don’t know anyone under 30 who enjoys those films. I don’t watch the Batman to show either. None of those versions are relevant with audiences under 50 I don’t think.
    Agreed. I truly doubt most people today have even seen most of the older DC movies, let alone hold them in high esteem. Outside of Nolan’s trilogy and the Arkham games, everything else is simply to old.

  6. #66
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    You can be different and still be, y'know, good.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arsenal View Post
    Agreed. I truly doubt most people today have even seen most of the older DC movies, let alone hold them in high esteem. Outside of Nolan’s trilogy and the Arkham games, everything else is simply to old.
    Most people who were teens or kids that saw the older DC movies are still alive. Snyder is right, Imagine if GOTG was on superman's level of iconic, the first movie would have been very different.

    Additionally the older comic films, what you see as too old now, day by day are now falling into great classics of the comic book genre, while this new comic films both from MCU and DCU are very easy to dispose. it's unlikely any of them will stand the test of time.

  8. #68
    Ultimate Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Sam Raimi's Spiderman was Spiderman that represented why he was such an iconic character. It showed how the universe of spiderman works, the only adaption that has come close to this so far is that video game he has on PS4.
    There was, of course, the Spider-Verse movie, but who's keeping score? Besides, if the MCU Spidey movies were good on their own terms, does it matter how they stack up to anything else.

    Feige has a resume of comic book movies. To be kind, they all should be kept far away from the X-Universe. Many Feige supporters could make up their mind about him. one minute they tell us it is great feige will do xmen, the next minute they tell us we should wait until the final product. The wait argument usually happens when the x-fans bring up something from the x-universe and ask the feige fans to show us something similar and they could not. I believe this is why one of them blew up at me, I asked him to show me an MCU movie that cut deep into mental illness as Legion did and he could not.[/quote]

    Nice straw men. I was there, and the "wait and see" argument was brought up when people like you declared that any Feige-produced X-Men movie would be automatically bad, which is a false assertion, since you're making a judgement based on nothing; one may look at his filmography and have opinions on the kind of work he does, but the sad fact of life is that we know nothing about what he has in mind for the X-Men, much less how he'll execute it. At the end of the day, the final product is all that matters in terms of grading the art.

    Also, whether the MCU movies had done a film about mental illness is irrelevant to whether Marvel Studios can make good X-Men movies. X-Men is about a lot more then mental illness (or grimdark drama, for that matter).

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Legion is in a different class to those films, no one could put Thor Ragnarok and GOTG in the same class as Logan in 2017 but somehow they will want to put Legion there.
    What are you talking about now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    I don't think Fiege has the mindset to understand Legion. Snyder has a better chance of doing that even if he may not get it 100% right.
    Seriously?

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    I don't know if this is a coincidence but Patty tweeted today that sam raimi spiderman were her favourite comic movies with Donner Superman. The first wonder woman movie for like 75% was its own thing and similar to those films.A film Snyder did produce.
    So, Jenkins like classic MCU-like movies (so does Feige, incidentally)? What does that prove?

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    DC has been trying to copy marvel since justice league.
    They were trying to since Man of Steel. It's just after Justice League that they got their crap together and found the right vision to make it work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    I know Snyder will never say this upfront but I know his dislike for justice league 2016 is part of this reason.
    Yeah, I don't think we need to go into conspiracy theories on that; having a very specific idea for what he wanted and getting pulled from the project, which was then morphed into something else would frustrating enough. As mind-boggling as it is that Warner Bros. keeps giving him chance after chance, the one thing that makes sense in the mess that is the Snyderverse is why Snyde doesn't like the final version of the Justice League movie.
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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stick Figure View Post
    I love MOS and it’s the definitive Superman to me. I don’t think having him fight Batman was a great follow up. I like the movie but I think we needed to see both characters again before they met. BvS feels like we’re missing a chapter.

    I don’t buy audience have a set idea of Superman because of the old movies. I don’t know anyone under 30 who enjoys those films. I don’t watch the Batman to show either. None of those versions are relevant with audiences under 50 I don’t think.
    It's not just old movies, it's that Superman existed enough in the public zeitgeist that people have a preconception about him and it offers less flexibility. You couldn't deviate with him with the same freedom that Marvel was allowed to lean into RDJ's strengths as an actor for Iron Man or the way Hemworths' Thor was a bit of a bro or the way or make Star Lord complete comic relief because it suits the actor more with Superman because people would just say "well they got Superman wrong".

  10. #70
    King of Wakanda Midvillian1322's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    It's not just old movies, it's that Superman existed enough in the public zeitgeist that people have a preconception about him and it offers less flexibility. You couldn't deviate with him with the same freedom that Marvel was allowed to lean into RDJ's strengths as an actor for Iron Man or the way Hemworths' Thor was a bit of a bro or the way or make Star Lord complete comic relief because it suits the actor more with Superman because people would just say "well they got Superman wrong".
    I agree but Batman goes against that. We have gotten vastly different versions of the character that we're all received very well. So maybe there is more to it. I think Superman represents something to alot of people. So if you gonna change him and mess with that it better be amazing. Superman definitely has the least flexibility. Spider-Man and Batman are right behind him. Both have had multiple iterations that were received well though and some that weren't. But even Batman got way less hate then Supes in BvS. Outside comic fans crying about him callously murdering people I honestly thought people liked Affleck as Bruce(This is all anecdotal).. Anyway outside those 3 I don't think people care that much as long as what they get is good. Marvels next real test will be recasting Wolverine after Jackman defined a character for 20years. But DC can do whatever they want with the vast majority of they're characters and people wouldn't care if it's good. Superman being the only exception. They made a Joker movie that had no resemblance to the Joker from the comics but it was good so people don't care. So I don't think DC has a disadvantage. They have one character who people have expectations of.. I think alot of it is people expect Superman to inspire hope. Do that and make a Good movie. People will eat it up. maybe don't let the 300 guy mess with Superman(I love 300 by the way). Everything else is wide open

    I also dont think having a fan favorite Captain America with a superman esque boyscout personality around helped either.
    Last edited by Midvillian1322; 12-28-2020 at 01:25 AM.

  11. #71
    Ceiling Belkar stabs you GozertheGozarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stick Figure View Post
    I love MOS and it’s the definitive Superman to me. I don’t think having him fight Batman was a great follow up. I like the movie but I think we needed to see both characters again before they met. BvS feels like we’re missing a chapter.

    I don’t buy audience have a set idea of Superman because of the old movies. I don’t know anyone under 30 who enjoys those films. I don’t watch the Batman to show either. None of those versions are relevant with audiences under 50 I don’t think.
    I'm under 50, like the first two Reeves Superman movies and Batman '89, and hate Nolan and Snyder's versions of the characters.
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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    There was, of course, the Spider-Verse movie, but who's keeping score? Besides, if the MCU Spidey movies were good on their own terms, does it matter how they stack up to anything else.
    [/QUOTE]

    A good reminder that Snyder is correct about characters like Superman, Batman and Spiderman. when you say MCU Spiderman is good on its own terms. its the same point I made that this goodly received mcu movies should only be judge between eachother. Holland's Spidey is good on its own terms but it becomes irrelevant when you have it next to Sam Raimi movies.



    Nice straw men. I was there, and the "wait and see" argument was brought up when people like you declared that any Feige-produced X-Men movie would be automatically bad, which is a false assertion, since you're making a judgement based on nothing; one may look at his filmography and have opinions on the kind of work he does, but the sad fact of life is that we know nothing about what he has in mind for the X-Men, much less how he'll execute it. At the end of the day, the final product is all that matters in terms of grading the art.
    It was not a false assertion, Feige comic movies don't mesh well with the X-Universe and that is a bad thing. if you don't know how he will execute it then maybe you need to stop saying most are happy feige is now is charge. it's contradictory.

    I think its strange how you have selective ways of jugging things. You think every Snyder DC movie is always going to be bad, because you get Snyder but you can't say for sure if Feige's X-Men is going to bad or good.

    Also, whether the MCU movies had done a film about mental illness is irrelevant to whether Marvel Studios can make good X-Men movies. X-Men is about a lot more then mental illness (or grimdark drama, for that matter).
    the mental illness topic was just a throw away example, Yes, X-Men has a lot more than mental illness but the only thing fox ever did that worked was when they told their more grimdark and ''adult'' stories. no one is going to buy dumbed down fun and humor disney x-men as the greatest xmen work ever. this is what we expect from Feige. What we have so far were Feige fans trying to bend the X-Universe to MCU will and style when it is clear they are not compatible.

    So, Jenkins like classic MCU-like movies (so does Feige, incidentally)? What does that prove?
    Jenkins is not really a MCU fan.

    https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/patty-...dceu-different

    I mean She is not a hater or anything but left to her, she would not follow their style. A lot of modern DC directors knew this as far back as Nolan, Snyder was just an easy scapegoat for the wishy washy movie critics.
    Last edited by Castle; 12-28-2020 at 07:01 AM.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midvillian1322 View Post
    I agree but Batman goes against that. We have gotten vastly different versions of the character that we're all received very well. So maybe there is more to it. I think Superman represents something to alot of people. So if you gonna change him and mess with that it better be amazing. Superman definitely has the least flexibility. Spider-Man and Batman are right behind him. Both have had multiple iterations that were received well though and some that weren't. But even Batman got way less hate then Supes in BvS. Outside comic fans crying about him callously murdering people I honestly thought people liked Affleck as Bruce(This is all anecdotal).. Anyway outside those 3 I don't think people care that much as long as what they get is good. Marvels next real test will be recasting Wolverine after Jackman defined a character for 20years. But DC can do whatever they want with the vast majority of they're characters and people wouldn't care if it's good. Superman being the only exception. They made a Joker movie that had no resemblance to the Joker from the comics but it was good so people don't care. So I don't think DC has a disadvantage. They have one character who people have expectations of.. I think alot of it is people expect Superman to inspire hope. Do that and make a Good movie. People will eat it up. maybe don't let the 300 guy mess with Superman(I love 300 by the way). Everything else is wide open

    I also dont think having a fan favorite Captain America with a superman esque boyscout personality around helped either.
    I don't think Batman goes against that, necessarily.

    Michael Uslan, Tim Burton and others working on the '89 movie worked really hard to break away from the popular perception of Batman, which was the Adam West TV show. This despite the fact that the Batman comics had been taking a serious turn for close to 20 years by that point, and Frank Miller had just redefined the character in DKR and Year One.

    But between Batman '89 and Miller's work in the comics, the Batman franchise as a whole took on a darker more noir-ish aesthetic overall, and that's the vision of the character that has persisted for the last 30-odd years. The Burton films, BTAS, Nolan films, Arkham games, Batfleck etc. all have their differences, but broadly spaking they're tonally more similar than different, on a superficial level at least. Contrast this with the Reeve Superman films and MOS. Also, for a fairly long time, the Adam West Batman and other light-hearted takes on the character were shunned by 'serious' fans, though - its only in the last several years that they've started to be 'accepted' again.

  14. #74
    Ultimate Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    A good reminder that Snyder is correct about characters like Superman, Batman and Spiderman. when you say MCU Spiderman is good on its own terms. its the same point I made that this goodly received mcu movies should only be judge between eachother.
    No, your only point is that the MCU movies are bad because they're not like Snyder's work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Holland's Spidey is good on its own terms but it becomes irrelevant when you have it next to Sam Raimi movies.
    Holland's Spidey not only deals with stories that the Raimi movies didn't touch on, but is also getting sequels, making it the future of the film franchise. It is the most relevant part of things as of right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    It was not a false assertion, Feige comic movies don't mesh well with the X-Universe and that is a bad thing.
    And yet wacky time travel, space opera, the Mojoverse, giant killer robots, living islands, and other craziness is a thing. So much for being incompatible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    if you don't know how he will execute it then maybe you need to stop saying most are happy feige is now is charge. it's contradictory.

    I think its strange how you have selective ways of jugging things. You think every Snyder DC movie is always going to be bad, because you get Snyder but you can't say for sure if Feige's X-Men is going to bad or good.
    Maybe I could make the case that Synder making more of the same is different then Feige supervising something new (besides, we don't know who will actually direct the first MCU X-Men movie). To be candid, if Snyder makes a new DCEU movie, I think it would be fair to give it a chance, same as we should for Feige and the X-Men. However, and consider this subjective if you will, but Feige has a track record for making good movies, Snyder does not. If that's what you believe, does it make any sense that someone would feel more positive about the former continuing to work than the latter. (Also, in the case of Snyder, his being given second chance after second chance and poor sportsmanship over his cut, fairly or not, does not endear me to him.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    the mental illness topic was just a throw away example, Yes, X-Men has a lot more than mental illness but the only thing fox ever did that worked was when they told their more grimdark and ''adult'' stories. no one is going to buy dumbed down fun and humor disney x-men as the greatest xmen work ever. this is what we expect from Feige. What we have so far were Feige fans trying to bend the X-Universe to MCU will and style when it is clear they are not compatible.
    See above for why the X-Men can work with the MCU.

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Jenkins is not really a MCU fan.

    https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/patty-...dceu-different

    I mean She is not a hater or anything but left to her, she would not follow their style. A lot of modern DC directors knew this as far back as Nolan, Snyder was just an easy scapegoat for the wishy washy movie critics.
    Changing the subject to something I never even said doesn't answer the question.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    No, your only point is that the MCU movies are bad because they're not like Snyder's work.
    .
    No, I never said anything like that, the like I have for Snyder is at least I know he is doing his own movies.


    Holland's Spidey not only deals with stories that the Raimi movies didn't touch on, but is also getting sequels, making it the future of the film franchise.
    Raimi movies don't need to touch Holland's stories since Raimi movies have grown beyond that. Tobey was already in college by the second act of the first movie dealing with man problems, filling the fatherly and even husband role that Uncle Ben left. Holland is still in kindergarten class worshiping Iron Man. And its going to get worse because Dr Strange is now going to fill in Iron Man shoes.
    It is the most relevant part of things as of right now.
    Ironic that Holland's spiderman movies are never going to stand the test of time. it's like the more we see of holland, the more Maguire movies earn more relevance.


    Maybe I could make the case that Synder making more of the same is different then Feige supervising something new (besides, we don't know who will actually direct the first MCU X-Men movie). To be candid, if Snyder makes a new DCEU movie, I think it would be fair to give it a chance, same as we should for Feige and the X-Men. However, and consider this subjective if you will, but Feige has a track record for making good movies, Snyder does not. If that's what you believe, does it make any sense that someone would feel more positive about the former continuing to work than the latter. (Also, in the case of Snyder, his being given second chance after second chance and poor sportsmanship over his cut, fairly or not, does not endear me to him.)
    Directors don't matter greatly with MCU. Whoever directs the first xmen movie will still end up with an MCU looking kind of movie. It is MCU fans that think Feige has a track record of making good movies, but like i said, this is only judged between feige own movies. and it is not as if I am saying Feige movies are flat out bad, I am saying they mean nothing compared to other things and are easily deposable compared to other movies.


    See above for why the X-Men can work with the MCU.
    X-Men cannot fit in the MCU because MCU contradicts a lot of things about the x-universe, for xmen to work in the mcu, you will have to recton the X-Universe to a damaging extent. far more damaging than Spiderman. I think a lot of people including a cbr moderator (Frointer) has already told you this when you tried to hype up Black Panther and Storm, a couple most don't gives a **** about apart from MCU fans.

    Changing the subject to something I never even said doesn't answer the question
    I think Patty made things pretty clear.

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