Zack Snyder Explains Why DC Movies Can't Be Like Marvel Movies

[WebLurker]

Using your greatest hits again? Not to speak of you trying selling your opinion as fact again. "Endgame wished it had the same kind worthy critically acclaim of X1." Really?
And once again using the Holocaust in a movie does not make it adult or mature or whatever buzz words you are throwing around again.

Here in the real world, the X-Men movies were wishing that they had the acclaim of Endgame. On top of that, I don't think X1 was the best the series had to offer, anyways (personally, I think Logan and Days of Future Past were the best, with First Class and The Wolverine being above average "honorable mentions").

Also, using the Holocaust in and of itself doesn't make the movie "better" or more "mature" (see X-Men: Apocalypse, which I do actually like, but still). In the case of X1, it informs Magneto's backstory helps set up his worldview and the context of the story. Just like how the serious opening scene in the first Guardians of the Galaxy helped set up that the movie was about family and that for all the comedy goofiness in it, the character emotions were going to be taken dead serious.

It's all in the execution. As we've seen with the Snyderverse, it doesn't matter how good your ideas are if the final film sucks.

Not to forget you loose any credibility claiming that
-Iron Man did not undergo a development

Yeah, don't get that one either. Beyond the fact that he was a different man at the end then at the beginning, we see him going from rejecting all authority (IM1 and 2, Age of Ultron), to seeing how his out of control nature makes problems (IM3, Age of Ultron), becoming someone who advocates for responsibility and accountability (Civil War, Spider-man movies, Endgame).

Maybe some characters didn't change as much (Ant-Man remains the same friendly guy through and through), but there are plenty of characters who change extensively in some way or another (the whole Guardians crew, Nebula, Black Widow, Thor, even Cap's worldview changes subtly over time). Heck, the MCU has more character development and does it better than their main rivals with the DCEU and DC Snyderverse (granted, more movies does equal more screen time for change, but still even the sequels often have notable character growth).

-that MCU movies do not have "mature"themes.

Funny how a movie about a talking raccoon was more mature than serious movie about men worrying about the fate of a world now dealing with the existence of gods of uncertain intent. (Once again, execution always wins over filmmaker intentions.) Think the MCU deals less in "big important themes" and finds its depth in the character work.

But to see that you would need to see beyond your bias and stop selling your opinion as fact.

To be fair, it is an easy trap to fall into, but yeah.

[Castle]

You do realize there are remote areas of the world where plane or boat are the only way to get to them like some South American jungles and they have little contact with the outside world so many of the native people don't know western history right? So to you they have no depth?

what is depth as you define it, I personally agree with even some critics that mcu is fun and have no depth . I do know depth is not bommbading your films with mostly cgi stuff, take this from me a person who now mostly watches only classic hollywood films.

As for WWI and WW that's actually an issue I have with the film I know I'm in the minority, but I hate the No Man's Land scene because I hate the idea of Superheroes leading the way in real world battles. I'm grateful in First Avenger Steve is fighting Hydra and not actual Nazis because him Storming the Beaches at Normandy leading the soldiers or Liberating Concentration Camps would had been cringy IMO we don't need fictional heroes shown doing that when real ones gave their lives doing it.

steve fighing hydra and not actual nazis is part of the reason no creidible critic was puting first avenger and first class in the same ranks, first class actually showed mutants taking on nazis and ussr and usa cold war soldiers adding also some 60s civil rights themes. first avenger is just dumb down a bit because MCU stories dont want to go there, what is cirngey is a person trying to justify that and then claim to hate other movies that dare to go there, take on the world war 1 and 2 as it is. instead of something less grounded.

The destruction of Metropolis was a mess Snyder couldn't even get emotions out of the Death of Freaking Superman in BvS.

But we are to believe gamora's people does? if the many that claim ben was a good batman part of the reason is seeing his rage and anger from BvS when Zod and superman were fighting

They literally had Thanos turn young Gamora's head playing with her as he had her mother and people murdered next to her that's cold IMO.

which makes sense for marvel. playing with her, that is water down story telling versus to the cruelty young erik experienced.

As for 1st Class it's IMO the best X-Men movie they did right what X1 failed in.

if i remember first class was just the extension of X1, If anything failed is many MCU movies that wont have any film like X1 worth remembering in a way that does not make comic movie silly such as endgame.

I just love the post. It takes me to the land of tupsy turby. NO MAN world war 1 scene is bad, X1 nazi world war 2 scene is a failure only because Marvel story telling is limited to fantasy because Disney thinks kids don't really want to see some of the realism of world wars. And sometimes I dont wonder why marvel movies are never taken seriously compared to X1 or what wonder woman did as a world war 1 period piece with some grounded story telling. let's see where endgame will be in 20 years. this is not man of steel that is even ageing better, because more people are getting older and are now appreciating the more ''adult'' comic movies.

[Killerbee911]

Your opinion is your opinion, I have no problem with people expressing their opinion. When you express your opinion as it is fact or speaks like if that opinion is that of the larger majority view I will point it out that is not true. I don't care to go back forth with a biased brick wall. Seriously it is always this scene

DC Fanboy: The MCU is trash
Killerbee: What about Wonder Woman 1984
DC Fanboy: But the MCU is more trash
Killerbee: But Wonder Woman 1984 is still trash, So is the suicide squad, Harley Quinn,Aquaman,Joss Wedon Cut Justice League
DC Fanboy: But the MCU is more trash
KillerBee: But DC got trash movies too, Why are we giving them the benefit of the doubt for EVERY movie and the good ones, Movies are individual things. Winter Soldier was a good movie
DC Fanboy: But DC good movies are better than MCU
Killerbee: But Winter Solider is still a good movie, Black Panther is a good movie, etc and since every DC is not a good movie,Some of us are fine with good marvel movies
DC Fanboy: DC movie are better
Killerbee: Except when they are making trash movies like Wonder Woman 1984 and others, And Marvel is capable of making good movies
DC Fanboy: DC movies are better
Killerbee: Except when they are making trash movies like Wonder Woman 1984 and Marvel is making a better movie.

It is a perpetual stupid convo that pretends that Marvel does not make good movies and everything DC or anybody else makes is better. And ignores that DC makes bad movies. I mean what are the last 4 DC movies Aquaman, Shazam, Harley Quinn BoP, Wonder Woman 1984. What is the last 4 MCU movies Antman and Wasp, Spiderman Far from Home, Avengers Endgame, and Captain Marvel. Only an idiot would argue their something significantly better in those lists. If Marvel and DC can both make 4 average to bad superhero movies in a row what is the point?

I repeat the last 4 four DCEU movies are Aquaman, Shazam, Harley Quinn BoP, and Wonder Woman 1984 why in the world is a person pretending that everything DC touches is high art? The Next five DCEU movies are Suicide Squad(by the guy who made GotG) Aquaman 2, The Flash, Shazam 2, and Black Adam. I truly try to avoid these convos but I hate that some people think they are right because their opinion went unchallenged. Yes it is silly but I am not built to ignore every post.

[Castle]

Using your greatest hits again? Not to speak of you trying selling your opinion as fact again. "Endgame wished it had the same kind worthy critically acclaim of X1." Really?.

It took 11 years for Avatar to sink Titanic

It took 11 years for Endgame to sink Avatar.

I think we will not have to wait 15 years for a movie to sink Endgame.

So where does that leave Endgame in 20 years once they are no 2 or 3 or 7 in box office ranking. Many if not all comic films right now acclaim has never gone past fun and humor. They are not worth remembering as adding anything intellectual or different to the comic book genre. X1 at least has that legacy. this is the only reason it was worth talking about after 20 years even if the director now has a tarnished career.

And once again using the Holocaust in a movie does not make it adult or mature or whatever buzz words you are throwing around again.

Please I am getting personally offended, first someone say there is a chance noone has heard of the Holocaust . now its a buzzword. as a person who has ties to the holocaust, its cringey reading this. the holocaust is not a buzzword in any meduim, geez even Harry potter based some storylines from that alone, again. a kids book. I never said X1 was ''adult'' and mature in a way I did not find it so silly, I called to kill a mockingbird a children's book meaning Xmen is very accessible to kids.

Not to forget you loose any credibility claiming that
-Iron Man did not undergo a development
-that MCU movies do not have "mature"themes.
But to see that you would need to see beyond your bias and stop selling your opinion as fact.

In an alternate reality I watched the real Iron Man 2 and 3 movies and saw the Mikey Rouke Iron Man 2 cut.

Here in the real world, the X-Men movies were wishing that they had the acclaim of Endgame. On top of that, I don't think X1 was the best the series had to offer, anyways (personally, I think Logan and Days of Future Past were the best, with First Class and The Wolverine being above average "honorable mentions").

Why would any film wish for the acclaim of Endgame? I will call it now in 20 years no one will talk about Endgame like this.


There is nothing in ''Endgame'' that we wish other films did not have. is it the story, cinematography, VFX, directing, editing, colourful costumes? I am confused with this one. Man of Steel film making experience is stronger than Endgame. Man of Steel also gave a far more realistic take of what an alien invasion would be like in reality. Endgame is a pure fantasy both in story and film style.

I think this came up on the x-forums, we asked Feige fans to explain what is the point of fat thor and why does every avenger movie have a bizarre cgi big fight , where don't their movie have any convincing grounded themes , and why is their plot always about some generic comic book story. not one could give us a plausible answer that was believable from an X-Universe pov

Also, using the Holocaust in and of itself doesn't make the movie "better" or more "mature" (see X-Men: Apocalypse, which I do actually like, but still). In the case of X1, it informs Magneto's backstory helps set up his worldview and the context of the story. Just like how the serious opening scene in the first Guardians of the Galaxy helped set up that the movie was about family and that for all the comedy goofiness in it, the character emotions were going to be taken dead serious.

It's all in the execution. As we've seen with the Snyderverse, it doesn't matter how good your ideas are if the final film sucks.

A serious opening scene from GOTG but the movie is classified as comedy. I just saw someone on the worst mcu thread calling the tone of GOTG grating. I think GOTG is the one franchise that is going to age the worst. it will not make it past 20 years.

X-Men apocalypse and wonder woman 84 are an 80s match made in heaven. I dont care for them. I will stick to world war 1 and world war 2 of X1 and wonder woman 1.

I have this theory that part of the reason some are been so negative to the snyder cut is because the movie will be far better Endgame , which is an easy feat.

[Killerbee911]

It took 11 years for Avatar to sink Titanic

It took 11 years for Endgame to sink Avatar.

I think we will not have to wait 15 years for a movie to sink Endgame.

So where does that leave Endgame in 20 years once they are no 2 or 3 or 7 in box office ranking.

One of the only movies that made 2 billion.The final movie in the movie franchise that defined that decade at the box office and made comic book movies mainstream.The bookend of MCU with Ironman. The Starwars or Jaws of its generation(in cultural impact not technical merit) the movie people rushed out the Box office to see.

You don't see to realize that MCU has become synonymous with comic book movies they don't even mention the other brands. Martin Scorsese couldn't name you a DC movie or Fox Movie but he could name MCU. Every pretentious director has attack the MCU not one of them has defended a DC or Fox movie. If there was one worth mention to them they would have said it. Outside of the world of fandom thing are vastly different

and just for fun Richard Donner

“Well, I'd like to be able to make one of those theme park rides!” Donner joked to *******ph about Scorsese's theme park comparison. “The problem is, a lot of times, we see in our industry that when the technical lens becomes readily available, it's totally misused. But at the same time, every once in a while you really see quite a wonderful story with one of these films.”

Donner also noted that, when superhero films aim to embrace the "grittier" side of comics, he doesn't connect with them as strongly, given the many tragedies of the real world.

“There are so many people that make superheroes so cynical, it's depressing," the filmmaker confessed. "When they're dark and bleak and angry with themselves and the world, I don't find it entertaining.

[Castle]

One of the only movies that made 2 billion.The final movie in the movie franchise that defined that decade at the box office and made comic book movies mainstream.The bookend of MCU with Ironman. The Starwars or Jaws of its generation the movie people rushed out the Box office to see.

Except it was Superman 1 and 2 that made comic films mainstream.

Batman took over in the late 80s and 90s.

X-Men 1 in the 2000s

Spiderman 1 was a big comic blockbuster like no other in the 2000s

Batman Begins and TDK came along big.

When it comes to box office, please you do know that Spiderman 1, 2, , X2 and X3 broke box office records in their days? and so did The Dark Knight?

Spiderman 1 was the first film to make 100m in one weekend in 2002

X2 had the widest theatre release making 85 million in that weekend in 2003

X3 broke the record for box office weekends gross for comic films, and single day record and was second only to star wars revenge of the sith for all time single day record. that was then broken by spiderman 3 in 2007 and then dark knight in 2008.

X3 broke the memorial day weekend record making 120 million in 2006

Spiderman 3 all time weekend record making 155 million in 2007

TDK beating that with 166 million in 2008.


A significant amount of this cash went to Marvel so they could set up MCU.

The Starwars or Jaws of its generation the movie people rushed out the Box office to see.

Too ironic you bring up Jaws, when Spielberg has said this comics films will die out like westerns. Jaws has stood the test of time.

disney stars wars and disney mcu are a match made in heaven.

If you want to talk classic star wars original trilogy, the comic films that will be more fitting would be comic movies like X1, X2, Spiderman 1, 2. at least we can give an objectivity opinion X2, Spiderman 2 did break some ground with VFX like star wars did in their genre and changed how we can see comic films as more than fun and toys as star wars did with fantasy stories, I dont know what film making ground MCU has broken apart from connecting strings of generic comic book films together.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

I agree with him in theory but not in practice.

[BeastieRunner]

I've long been of the opinion that DC should have (or still should) use teams to bring these characters to a wider audience.

We've seen a million origins of Batman and Superman ... give us World's Finest (not Batman vs. Superman) working together. Put the Trinity together in a film to setup the JL, not have them fight each other. Or Brave and the Bold: Batman and Green Lantern. Superman/Flash. Give us somebody weird like Superman and Blue Beetle in a team up. Try out Hawkman and Hawkgirl. Do a Teen Titans movie!

Give us a big JLA movie and then break out the side characters like Lantern, Aquaman, etc.

Wonder Woman was "new" enough to cinema that her origin bits worked well.

I just think DC should really lean into the ensemble pieces or team-ups if they want a connected universe to set them apart from the MCU.

They could've jumped into their 52 Earths stuff but Marvel seems to already be using the multiverse, so yet another thing DC slept on.

I agree they should play with tone.

Maybe it is time for really bizarre Elseworlds faire? Superman crashes in a jungle and is raised by the animals, Kryptonians move to Earth and enslave them instead of dying only to have Batman lead a rebellion that eventually gets Kal to join, Gotham by Gaslight, give us the western Justice Riders with Wonder Woman, Flash, Martian Manhunter, etc. as the leaders. Give us Flash messing things up and we get Tangent Universe.

Kingdom Come would a great movie they could do to play with their stuff.

DC at this point can and should do some experimenting while MCU plays it safe.

I dunno, I'm weird.

[green_garnish]

Lol about completely missing the point of Endgame. Now that's irony.

I generally dislike the phrase "the movie didn't age well" because I think you have to look at every movie within the context of when it was made. But X1 is so bad, the wire work so clumsy, that it makes Predator look like Academy Award stuff (and ultimately Predator is a more entertaining movie and in many ways better made).

The MCU changed the face of movies forever, and imo for the better, it elevated vfx to unheard of levels, it showed that it could attract the highest caliber actors and directors, it created new highest caliber actors and directors, and appealed consistently to a mass audience that showed they not only want to see the movies, but want to see them over and over (see MCU disc sales as opposed to virtually anything else).

Man of Steel has contributed to the advancement of filmmaking in the sense that Star Trek The Motion Picture contributed to the advancement of filmmaking, but in the end few are likely to remember it fondly for the most part. The DCU in general doesn't seem to have as consistent a track record as Star Trek, for that matter.

[Killerbee911]

Kingdom Come would a great movie they could do to play with their stuff.

DC at this point can and should do some experimenting while MCU plays it safe.

I dunno, I'm weird.

In theory, they can experiment, In practice, this is a business losing money is bad(aka Justice League,Green Lantern) AND not making money when could have made more is bad (aka Man of Steel and BvS). If DC is going to experiment they have to experiment like Joker with low-budget stuff. You can't experiment with 200 million-plus on the line.

I agree with Kingdom Come,It would have been perfect for Synder who with 300 and Watchmen show he is pretty adept if there is a solid story for him to stay on rails with when he gets too much freedom things go a little left for him. We were viewing his movies under the lens of them being elseworlds I think Zach Synder would be getting praise now and DC would be in much better shape. DC seems to all-in on the multiverse now let's see what happens.

[Castle]

Lol about completely missing the point of Endgame. Now that's irony.

I generally dislike the phrase "the movie didn't age well" because I think you have to look at every movie within the context of when it was made. But X1 is so bad, the wire work so clumsy, that it makes Predator look like Academy Award stuff (and ultimately Predator is a more entertaining movie and in many ways better made).

I think you could be confusing that for Black Panther and Iron Man sequels.

The MCU changed the face of movies forever, and imo for the better, it elevated vfx to unheard of levels, it showed that it could attract the highest caliber actors and directors, it created new highest caliber actors and directors, and appealed consistently to a mass audience that showed they not only want to see the movies, but want to see them over and over (see MCU disc sales as opposed to virtually anything else).

A lot of MCU actors were not the highest calibre actors, some were just starting out or not well known. Spiderman and X-Men had established actors. William Dafoe, Kristen Dusnt, Patrick Stewart, Ian Mckellen, Anna Paquin, Halle Berry, Cliff Robertson, kesley grammer, Brian Cox.

MCU went for mostly cheap unknown actors back then because their studio was small , they even went for RDJ when mostly everyone in Hollywood had written him off.

DOFP VFX killed off MCU Quicksilver. Spiderman 2 is still the only marvel oscar winner for vfx. Spiderman 1 VFX had James Cameron

Man of Steel has contributed to the advancement of filmmaking in the sense that Star Trek The Motion Picture contributed to the advancement of filmmaking, but in the end few are likely to remember it fondly for the most part. The DCU in general doesn't seem to have as consistent a track record as Star Trek, for that matter.

So is this why Snyder this has many directors who back him .

[green_garnish]

. Actually this is not really true. a lot of MCU actors were not the highest calibre actors, some were just starting out or not well known. Spiderman and X-Men had established actors. William Dafoe, Kristen Dusnt, Patrick Stewart, Ian Mckellen, Anna Paquin, Halle Berry, Cliff Robertson, Brian Cox.

Just to zero in on one point out of several silly ones, how does this in any way show that what is referred to is not really true?

[Castle]

Kingdom Come would a great movie they could do to play with their stuff.

DC at this point can and should do some experimenting while MCU plays it safe.

.

DC is already experimenting.

They finally let the Snyder cut happen

They made Joker

They are making The Batman.

MCU can play it safe all they want but it is a different ball game when they start making spiderman and xmen movies. you don't play that safe when you know the kind of movies they already have in their past.

[green_garnish]

DC is already experimenting.

They finally let the Snyder cut happen

They made Joker

They are making The Batman.

MCU can play it safe all they want but it is a different ball game when they start making spiderman and xmen movies. you don't play that safe when you know the kind of movies they already have in their past.

Joker and Batman. Way to take risks DC.

[WebLurker]

Why would any film wish for the acclaim of Endgame?

Seriously?

I will call it now in 20 years no one will talk about Endgame like this.

Yeah, dollars to donuts it's be even more fondly remembered, but who can say, right?

There is nothing in ''Endgame'' that we wish other films did not have. is it the story, cinematography, VFX, directing, editing, colourful costumes? I am confused with this one.

I believe you.

Man of Steel film making experience is stronger than Endgame. Man of Steel also gave a far more realistic take of what an alien invasion would be like in reality. Endgame is a pure fantasy both in story and film style.

Once again, intent vs. execution.

I think this came up on the x-forums, we asked Feige fans to explain what is the point of fat thor and why does every avenger movie have a bizarre cgi big fight , where don't their movie have any convincing grounded themes , and why is their plot always about some generic comic book story. not one could give us a plausible answer that was believable from an X-Universe pov

Remember that. Not much point in bandying words with someone who's doesn't want to listen.

A serious opening scene from GOTG but the movie is classified as comedy.

Yeah, what about that?

I just saw someone on the worst mcu thread calling the tone of GOTG grating. I think GOTG is the one franchise that is going to age the worst. it will not make it past 20 years.

Personally, I think it's going to be at least a minor cult classic, but we'll see.

X-Men apocalypse and wonder woman 84 are an 80s match made in heaven. I dont care for them. I will stick to world war 1 and world war 2 of X1 and wonder woman 1.

I think I understand you a lot better, now.

I have this theory that part of the reason some are been so negative to the snyder cut is because the movie will be far better Endgame , which is an easy feat.

Or maybe it's about caving into toxic fandom? Also, why would we worry about it being better then Endgame? What's the point? (Also, if we were to engage in the question, the Snyder Cut has Zack Snyder going full throttle on the Snyder-ness of it all; it's doomed itself already.)