Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 66
  1. #31
    Astonishing Member Slade1's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    2,815

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    Yup, thanks for the timestamp.

    Basically, it's garbage as a feat like we count them here.

    In the feat, we see a bit of lightning around her behaving like lightning. She's clearly flying on her own power, through visibly moving clouds and such, there are flashes. She grabs the lasso. She hangs it out there gently, spinning the end a bit, but CLEARLY not bullet-timing even - gravity is having a notable effect on the cord, even though she's flying at SOME speed. She throws the lasso while the strike isn't there yet. There is a strike lightning strike that stays put, disappears, then it reappears in the same path, and the lasso grabs it. She swings (huh?) on it, then does it again. And again, she throws the visibly affected by gravity and wind and such lasso before the lightning strikes, the lightning strikes, and the lasso grabs it. She swings. Then she makes the Superman pose (because of course she does) and continues flying on her own.

    So:

    She could already fly on her own, she was already doing it very clearly.

    For some reason, she decides to swing off of two lightning strikes.

    Goes right back to flying after.

    And for both swings, she was swinging the cord before the lightning struck. Given her connection to lightning, I'd posit that she knew it was going to be there because Zeus Juice in her veins or something. Also, the first strike was there for a LONG time, and she was very clearly not bullet timing or anything in the scene. You can literally see the clouds moving around her in real time.

    The visual effect is cool, it would have maybe made sense if she did it before she proved she could fly under her own power, but then, the writing isn't exactly Citizen Cain or anything. For me, though, it doesn't do anything for her speed, which is already established as "bullet timer" when she doesn't completely forget to use it. That feat definitely isn't bullet timing.
    Agreed with this. The alternative is that she has lightening speed reflexes which we know isn't the case. The scene was just used for a cool visual; from a story point it makes no sense why she would do that as she could already fly. But then again, this movie wasn't anywhere close to being as good as the first one. It's not AS bad as some people have been saying but it's clearly worse than the first. I don't want to derail the thread so I'll stop there.

  2. #32
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Posts
    1,164

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    Yup, thanks for the timestamp.

    Basically, it's garbage as a feat like we count them here.

    In the feat, we see a bit of lightning around her behaving like lightning. She's clearly flying on her own power, through visibly moving clouds and such, there are flashes. She grabs the lasso. She hangs it out there gently, spinning the end a bit, but CLEARLY not bullet-timing even - gravity is having a notable effect on the cord, even though she's flying at SOME speed. She throws the lasso while the strike isn't there yet. There is a strike lightning strike that stays put, disappears, then it reappears in the same path, and the lasso grabs it. She swings (huh?) on it, then does it again. And again, she throws the visibly affected by gravity and wind and such lasso before the lightning strikes, the lightning strikes, and the lasso grabs it. She swings. Then she makes the Superman pose (because of course she does) and continues flying on her own.

    So:

    She could already fly on her own, she was already doing it very clearly.

    For some reason, she decides to swing off of two lightning strikes.

    Goes right back to flying after.

    And for both swings, she was swinging the cord before the lightning struck. Given her connection to lightning, I'd posit that she knew it was going to be there because Zeus Juice in her veins or something. Also, the first strike was there for a LONG time, and she was very clearly not bullet timing or anything in the scene. You can literally see the clouds moving around her in real time.

    The visual effect is cool, it would have maybe made sense if she did it before she proved she could fly under her own power, but then, the writing isn't exactly Citizen Cain or anything. For me, though, it doesn't do anything for her speed, which is already established as "bullet timer" when she doesn't completely forget to use it. That feat definitely isn't bullet timing.
    That is just wrong, she swings the lasso just as the lightning is coming and we just have a look at her for the first strike, no hint is given for any magical lightning sensing abilities, the argument that it is not as fast as it would be from our perspective is unreasonable for obvious reasons, her being able to fly on her own don't changes anything and she was clearly still learning, the clouds are moving because her and the camera are moving, except we assume the clouds would bmove multiple times faster than normal clouds or what we saw was not slowed down but speed up and Wonder Woman was awfully slow even for a normal human, and she is even weakened in the upper class of bullet timing already.

    That feat can get easily interpreted as below full on lightning speed, but below bullet speed is just silly, and we don't even have much to estimate it as an outlier or not, because the full power Wonder Woman later in 1984 is clearly something else than what we saw in Batman vs Superman or Justice League.

  3. #33
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    7,417

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rightoya View Post
    That is just wrong, she swings the lasso just as the lightning is coming and we just have a look at her for the first strike, no hint is given for any magical lightning sensing abilities, the argument that it is not as fast as it would be from our perspective is unreasonable for obvious reasons, her being able to fly on her own don't changes anything and she was clearly still learning, the clouds are moving because her and the camera are moving, except we assume the clouds would bmove multiple times faster than normal clouds or what we saw was not slowed down but speed up and Wonder Woman was awfully slow even for a normal human, and she is even weakened in the upper class of bullet timing already.

    That feat can get easily interpreted as below full on lightning speed, but below bullet speed is just silly, and we don't even have much to estimate it as an outlier or not, because the full power Wonder Woman later in 1984 is clearly something else than what we saw in Batman vs Superman or Justice League.
    The things you say there don't really make sense. Clouds don't move at bullet speeds - ever. There are tons of physical reasons for this. Wonder Woman from BvS or JL logically should be at the very least as good and as fast as Wonder Women from WW84, given that it happens 30 years prior.

    I'll offer you a question that you can answer if you like:

    What makes more sense: that, despite all of the problems in the scene as I list:

    1. Wonder Woman reacts at literally a couple of thousand times faster than she's ever reacted before just those two times, then never does it again in any other scene ever, and oh by the way this ignores all of the visible discrepancies in the scene. But screw all of that, let's count this one singular feat as a thing that makes WW a couple of thousand times faster than she's ever been up until now, even when such speed sure would be useful.

    or

    2. Some combo of "director doesn't understand lightning" mixed with "daughter of Zeus-who-manipulates-lightning literally does a thing with lightning that doesn't make physical sense" mixed with "all of the problems in the scene kind of invalidate it as a feat" topped with "it's a giant outlier next to her entire catalog of activity which now expands to more than 3 full movies."

    I would choose the second one. If her next film, "WW92: Coke and Cynicism," has her reacting as a decent-tier speedster, then sure, let's roll with it. But for now, nothing in her arsenal is that level. Even her running speed tops out at "Captain America level", even in this film. Granting her the reactions you would seem to want to by validating the lightning thing means she should have been more than a statue to Flash, and she sure as hell was not.

    I re-watched the scene ~15 times when I made the comments above, I'll stick by them.
    "But... But I want to be a big karate cyborg... ;_;" - Nik Hasta
    "Get off my lawn! ...on this forum, that just makes people think of Cyclops." - Sharpandpointies
    "...makes me think the Night King just says "Screw the rules, I have magic money" when it comes to physics." -Captain Morgan

  4. #34
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Posts
    1,164

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    The things you say there don't really make sense. Clouds don't move at bullet speeds - ever. There are tons of physical reasons for this. Wonder Woman from BvS or JL logically should be at the very least as good and as fast as Wonder Women from WW84, given that it happens 30 years prior.

    I'll offer you a question that you can answer if you like:

    What makes more sense: that, despite all of the problems in the scene as I list:

    1. Wonder Woman reacts at literally a couple of thousand times faster than she's ever reacted before just those two times, then never does it again in any other scene ever, and oh by the way this ignores all of the visible discrepancies in the scene. But screw all of that, let's count this one singular feat as a thing that makes WW a couple of thousand times faster than she's ever been up until now, even when such speed sure would be useful.

    or

    2. Some combo of "director doesn't understand lightning" mixed with "daughter of Zeus-who-manipulates-lightning literally does a thing with lightning that doesn't make physical sense" mixed with "all of the problems in the scene kind of invalidate it as a feat" topped with "it's a giant outlier next to her entire catalog of activity which now expands to more than 3 full movies."

    I would choose the second one. If her next film, "WW92: Coke and Cynicism," has her reacting as a decent-tier speedster, then sure, let's roll with it. But for now, nothing in her arsenal is that level. Even her running speed tops out at "Captain America level", even in this film. Granting her the reactions you would seem to want to by validating the lightning thing means she should have been more than a statue to Flash, and she sure as hell was not.

    I re-watched the scene ~15 times when I made the comments above, I'll stick by them.
    The clouds did not move at any unusual speed, just Wonder Woman and the camera did. In Batman vs Superman and Justice League was it clear at any time, that Wonder Woman could not fly, they blatantly ignored these movies which is one of the few good decisions in Wonder Woman 1984.

    I choose 3. Wonder Woman is at full power much faster than weakened, where she was in 1984 a high end bullet timer already, but she just predicted and somewhat reacted to the lightning, which puts her well above bullet timing but not at full on lightning timing. And calling it an outlier is not reasonable with that argument, 2 of the 3 movies you mentioned contradict her flight ability even more, and kind of even her invisibility powers.

    Your lowballing of Wonder Woman with a completely different type of speed feat much better than Cap's because of the context and the fact of her being weakened, and capping her stats with movies that got blatantly ignored in 1984, is not very convincing to me. Neither has running speed any relevance for the reaction and short movement speed feats of fictional characters, nor could Cap even replicate the whole feat of the still weakened Wonder Woman.

    I also rewatched the scene, and did not find any part where we could see that Wonder Woman threw her lasso before there was lightning, i also paused the youtube clip from 1:07 to 1:08 where we just Wonder Woman throwing her lasso from the front and then a cut to the lightning that was there already.

  5. #35
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    7,417

    Default

    You really seem to be intentionally misunderstanding my point.

    Wonder Woman has never, in any context, including this film, been someone who is thousands of times faster than "bullet timer."

    And...

    You literally see clouds moving a lot during the lighting strike.

    So...

    It seems like we have a combination of things, but notably:

    1. The lightning in the scene doesn't behave like lightning;
    2. It's a weird outlier anyway;
    3. She's got reasons to explain why lightning wouldn't be like lightning for her, given that she's the freaking daughter of Zeus;
    4. Again, the lightning doesn't act like lightning.
    5. Again, it's an insane crazy outlier that she doesn't live up to anywhere else, INCLUDING THIS FILM, given her fight shortly after with Cheetah and her situation with Max.

    So, to sum up again, this "feat" just isn't one by the standards of the board we are sharing.
    "But... But I want to be a big karate cyborg... ;_;" - Nik Hasta
    "Get off my lawn! ...on this forum, that just makes people think of Cyclops." - Sharpandpointies
    "...makes me think the Night King just says "Screw the rules, I have magic money" when it comes to physics." -Captain Morgan

  6. #36

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    You really seem to be intentionally misunderstanding my point.

    Wonder Woman has never, in any context, including this film, been someone who is thousands of times faster than "bullet timer."

    And...

    You literally see clouds moving a lot during the lighting strike.

    So...

    It seems like we have a combination of things, but notably:

    1. The lightning in the scene doesn't behave like lightning;
    2. It's a weird outlier anyway;
    3. She's got reasons to explain why lightning wouldn't be like lightning for her, given that she's the freaking daughter of Zeus;
    4. Again, the lightning doesn't act like lightning.
    5. Again, it's an insane crazy outlier that she doesn't live up to anywhere else, INCLUDING THIS FILM, given her fight shortly after with Cheetah and her situation with Max.

    So, to sum up again, this "feat" just isn't one by the standards of the board we are sharing.
    I'm not going to get too involved between you, but would just like to comment on one thing.

    On point 5, not living up to your best feat from your film anywhere else in your film should not invalidate the best feat from your film.

    Otherwise live action Apocalypse and Dark Pheonix dont have high end reaction speeds anymore.

    In your broader context of an outlier including her other films, it makes more sense as an argument. Just pointing out that if she only had 1 film and in that film, 1 speed feat was a thousand times better, I would be happy to include it personally.
    "At the end of the day, Arby is a pretty prolific poster proposing a plurality of proper posts for us."
    - big_adventure

  7. #37
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    7,417

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The Arbiter View Post
    I'm not going to get too involved between you, but would just like to comment on one thing.

    On point 5, not living up to your best feat from your film anywhere else in your film should not invalidate the best feat from your film.

    Otherwise live action Apocalypse and Dark Pheonix dont have high end reaction speeds anymore.

    In your broader context of an outlier including her other films, it makes more sense as an argument. Just pointing out that if she only had 1 film and in that film, 1 speed feat was a thousand times better, I would be happy to include it personally.
    That was the reason for the point, really: she doesn't just have one film or 3 total fights. She's in 3 and a half films and a couple of dozen battles now, plus non-fight scenes where that would ALSO be really useful to be a couple of thousands of times faster then normal. And when you combine that with all of the other points made over multiple posts now (lightning not behaving like lightning, gravity still having visible effects despite travel, speed of surrounding objects showing that she and the rope aren't moving at CLOSE to lightning speeds in nature, etc.) all combine to throw shade all over that feat.
    "But... But I want to be a big karate cyborg... ;_;" - Nik Hasta
    "Get off my lawn! ...on this forum, that just makes people think of Cyclops." - Sharpandpointies
    "...makes me think the Night King just says "Screw the rules, I have magic money" when it comes to physics." -Captain Morgan

  8. #38

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    That was the reason for the point, really: she doesn't just have one film or 3 total fights. She's in 3 and a half films and a couple of dozen battles now, plus non-fight scenes where that would ALSO be really useful to be a couple of thousands of times faster then normal. And when you combine that with all of the other points made over multiple posts now (lightning not behaving like lightning, gravity still having visible effects despite travel, speed of surrounding objects showing that she and the rope aren't moving at CLOSE to lightning speeds in nature, etc.) all combine to throw shade all over that feat.
    Eh. The rest of that stuff is pretty forgivable tbh. It's like how Surtur's size changes drastically from shot to shot. Or a million other examples.

    Super analyzing all that collateral stuff is the path to madness. Those things are often murky in a visual format when Hollywood's involved. Just a flaw of the medium. We wouldn't bat an eye at this feat if it was 2 or 3 panels in a comic because little animation whoopsies wouldn't even be a thing.

    Arguing it might be an outlier is the best argument so far.
    "At the end of the day, Arby is a pretty prolific poster proposing a plurality of proper posts for us."
    - big_adventure

  9. #39
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    7,417

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The Arbiter View Post
    Eh. The rest of that stuff is pretty forgivable tbh. It's like how Surtur's size changes drastically from shot to shot. Or a million other examples.

    Super analyzing all that collateral stuff is the path to madness. Those things are often murky in a visual format when Hollywood's involved. Just a flaw of the medium. We wouldn't bat an eye at this feat if it was 2 or 3 panels in a comic because little animation whoopsies wouldn't even be a thing.

    Arguing it might be an outlier is the best argument so far.
    The base argument is that it's a wild outlier. The other stuff is just supporting evidence and giving the filmmaker far too much credit really for incompetence. It doesn't take a physics genius to know that what we saw doesn't mean lightning in the real world. Nor does it take a history major to know that nothing in DCEU WW's story explains such a feat as remotely realistic for her established power-level. She has lots of feats of being NOT that fast when it would have been really useful being that fast, so she'd need some serious confirmation to make this her new baseline. DCEU Flash, or DCEU Supes might be, might be that fast, and she is literally a statue fixed in place next to them, based on multiple movies of feats.
    "But... But I want to be a big karate cyborg... ;_;" - Nik Hasta
    "Get off my lawn! ...on this forum, that just makes people think of Cyclops." - Sharpandpointies
    "...makes me think the Night King just says "Screw the rules, I have magic money" when it comes to physics." -Captain Morgan

  10. #40

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    The base argument is that it's a wild outlier. The other stuff is just supporting evidence and giving the filmmaker far too much credit really for incompetence. It doesn't take a physics genius to know that what we saw doesn't mean lightning in the real world. Nor does it take a history major to know that nothing in DCEU WW's story explains such a feat as remotely realistic for her established power-level. She has lots of feats of being NOT that fast when it would have been really useful being that fast, so she'd need some serious confirmation to make this her new baseline. DCEU Flash, or DCEU Supes might be, might be that fast, and she is literally a statue fixed in place next to them, based on multiple movies of feats.
    I'm just saying, the strength of your core argument becomes somewhat diminished when you add all the other fluff, as that fluff opens more doors for people to counter you with in the first place lol.

    The easiest route to victory would have been "Its too fast from what weve seen".

    Which I'm inclined to agree with btw.

    But none of the visual flubs or physics discrepancies would have invalidated that feat for me if this was her one and only movie. Which it isn't.

    I dont disagree with your assessment or your main reason for getting there. I just disagree with the hyper critical "supporting evidence". =)
    "At the end of the day, Arby is a pretty prolific poster proposing a plurality of proper posts for us."
    - big_adventure

  11. #41
    Astonishing Member Captain Morgan's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    4,303

    Default

    Setting aside whatever was going on with the lightning, one thing that doesn't seem to have gotten much attention is just how fast the lasso moves.

    Consider the scene on the highway where she lassos the bullet.

    1. Bullet is fired, she knows it won't hit her so she ignores it. She turns and watchs the bullet mid flight. Good, but pretty in line with first movie showings.

    2. She realizes the bullet is going to hit her friend. Bullet is halfway to said friend now.

    3. She grabs the lasso off her hip.

    4 Diana flicks the lasso as the bullet.

    5. The lasso OVERTAKES A BULLET IN FLIGHT.

    6. Lasso doesn't merely hit flick bullet out of the way. It wraps around the bullet and plucks it out of the air.

    Her reaction time alone there is maybe marginally better than most of her feats, but within sight of it. The key thing is that her lasso attacks travel faster than bullets. This basically circumvents the "how fast can Diana cross 100 feet" and opens some true speed blitz options. That bumps up her rumbles standing significantly.

    She can also enemies that have gotten air born, given her grabbing a jumbo jet virtually from the ground.

  12. #42
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    7,417

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Morgan View Post
    Setting aside whatever was going on with the lightning, one thing that doesn't seem to have gotten much attention is just how fast the lasso moves.

    Consider the scene on the highway where she lassos the bullet.

    1. Bullet is fired, she knows it won't hit her so she ignores it. She turns and watchs the bullet mid flight. Good, but pretty in line with first movie showings.

    2. She realizes the bullet is going to hit her friend. Bullet is halfway to said friend now.

    3. She grabs the lasso off her hip.

    4 Diana flicks the lasso as the bullet.

    5. The lasso OVERTAKES A BULLET IN FLIGHT.

    6. Lasso doesn't merely hit flick bullet out of the way. It wraps around the bullet and plucks it out of the air.

    Her reaction time alone there is maybe marginally better than most of her feats, but within sight of it. The key thing is that her lasso attacks travel faster than bullets. This basically circumvents the "how fast can Diana cross 100 feet" and opens some true speed blitz options. That bumps up her rumbles standing significantly.

    She can also enemies that have gotten air born, given her grabbing a jumbo jet virtually from the ground.
    Yeah, the lasso is definitely the most powerful thing in the DCEU, outside of Clark. She also does the "swingy so fast in circles" thing that she makes a 3M diameter shield that stops bullets easily.

    Of course, it also turns literally all of her fight scenes in WW84 into complete jokes of CW-level-awful PIS. If she can bullet-speed-plus with the rope and bullet-time her reflexes, she should just use the rope to KO all the enemies before they can react with their puny human reflexes, even if they are multiple km away from her (given the rope-a-jet and rope-a-cloud scenes, range is trivially that). Movie would have been better with fewer action set pieces, given how godawful the choreography and design were. Plus, they just went on forever. I feel that terrible road fight scene lasted like an hour and a half. Ugh.
    "But... But I want to be a big karate cyborg... ;_;" - Nik Hasta
    "Get off my lawn! ...on this forum, that just makes people think of Cyclops." - Sharpandpointies
    "...makes me think the Night King just says "Screw the rules, I have magic money" when it comes to physics." -Captain Morgan

  13. #43
    She/Her Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Alaska
    Posts
    21,472

    Default

    I liked the suit she didn't actually need but made her look like a stork.
    Yeah, but if you... man, we're getting into weird analogy territory, like if you disintegrated Superman's arms he wouldn't be able to go "fool! Little did you know that my arms and I are one and can be remade from me!" and will his arms back into being from pure nothingness. - Pendaran

    Arx Inosaan

  14. #44
    Astonishing Member Captain Morgan's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    4,303

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    Yeah, the lasso is definitely the most powerful thing in the DCEU, outside of Clark. She also does the "swingy so fast in circles" thing that she makes a 3M diameter shield that stops bullets easily.

    Of course, it also turns literally all of her fight scenes in WW84 into complete jokes of CW-level-awful PIS. If she can bullet-speed-plus with the rope and bullet-time her reflexes, she should just use the rope to KO all the enemies before they can react with their puny human reflexes, even if they are multiple km away from her (given the rope-a-jet and rope-a-cloud scenes, range is trivially that). Movie would have been better with fewer action set pieces, given how godawful the choreography and design were. Plus, they just went on forever. I feel that terrible road fight scene lasted like an hour and a half. Ugh.
    I mean she pretty much does that in the opening, doesn't she? She took those guys robbers apart with contemptuous ease. Not a "one panel speed blitz" but it is presented that no one, including the civilians, was in any actual danger.


    But she spends most of the movie with faulty powers which creates a vague justification for her to under perform in any given scene. So less plot induced stupidity and more of the plot actively undermining her performance.

  15. #45
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    7,417

    Default

    I feel Faulty Powers should be a series on the BBC starring the unfunny DCEU equivalents of John Cleese and Connie Booth.

    But in the actual film, as far as her broken powers went, even for that Ms. Jenkins and the editors and such did a terrible job with consistency and feel. Her very best not-totally-silly feat, the aforementioned bullet snare with the rope, was while she was "broken." She did several bracelet bounces with bullets with no issues then one bullet would get through. When she got shot, she was... hurt... to some degree, but not to any particularly serious one. She turned the plane invisible while broken, after succeeding all of one time prior in her entire life, on a cup, while fully powered. The "swing rope so quickly that it stops all incoming bullets easily" was while broken. Her strength was just fine for plenty of time while depowered, then suddenly she struggles with things that a really strong human would be capable of. It was just all over the place.
    Last edited by big_adventure; 01-10-2021 at 11:50 PM.
    "But... But I want to be a big karate cyborg... ;_;" - Nik Hasta
    "Get off my lawn! ...on this forum, that just makes people think of Cyclops." - Sharpandpointies
    "...makes me think the Night King just says "Screw the rules, I have magic money" when it comes to physics." -Captain Morgan

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •