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  1. #1

    Default Phony Connections: What Relationships Ring False in DC?

    Ever consider there are relationships between characters--be it romantic or just friends--that DC insists are one thing but the depicted text doesn't support it one way or the other?

    I thought of this when thinking about how, when one considers how the two characters actually interact with each other, Batman clearly hates Wonder Woman even though we're supposed to accept them as close friends because they're the "trinity" and all that.

    Look at their actual interactions over the years.

    As a start...the infamous contingency plans from Tower of Babel. Most of Bruce's plans against the Leaguers incapacitates them in one way or another. Torturous yes, but non-lethal....except for Diana. His contingency plan against her is specifically intended to give her a heart attack and die. Mister "no kill" is fully prepared to murder Wonder Woman if she "goes rogue" where everyone else just incapacitated.
    Then you have The Hiketeia, where Bruce always resorts to violence first and never considers or respects Diana's point of view or perspective. Even when he understands what the Hiketeia is and the consequences of it, he shows no regard for her safety or well-being.
    And, of course, there's the Brother Eye-Max Lord-OMAC debacle...which was pretty much all Bruce's fault and completely ruined Diana's life at that time. And rather than own up to it or even apologize, he decided she was the problem all along and went about "fixing" her without being asked.

    And those are just three specific stories. There's plenty more evidence of Bruce condescending and patronizing Diana.
    My point is...despite DC's insistence Batman and Wonder Woman are close, true friends and two-thirds of the fabled trinity...despite Bruce's occasional hollow platitudes and lip serves...he clearly hates Diana.
    He might not think he does. He might believe he actually cares about her. But actions speak louder than words, and it seems quite evident in how he treats her that Batman despises Wonder Woman.


    So that got me thinking. Are there any other phony friendships or hollow romances that the writers TELL us are a real thing, but when it comes to actually SHOWING us, it doesn't ring true?
    Or even vice versa? Are there characters that we're supposed to believe are mortal enemies, but their actual actions make them appear to be good friends?

  2. #2
    The Fastest Post Alive! Buried Alien's Avatar
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    With the New 52, DC tried to push Cyborg (Vic Stone) and Flash (Barry Allen) as friends (perhaps to match the DCEU), but it doesn't pan out. If it were Vic and Wally, that would work because they were teammates on the Titans and the same age group, but traditionally, Flash/Barry is an elder to Vic (Wally's uncle, after all). Their relationship would be respectful, but distant. I don't see them as buddies.

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  3. #3
    Spectacular Member Reddead's Avatar
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    I think Beast Boy and Raven's relationship is criminally underdeveloped in the main comics universe and when they do try to develop it it's usually pretty bad. I do think a capable writer could make it work though.

  4. #4
    Ultimate Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guy_McNichts View Post
    Ever consider there are relationships between characters--be it romantic or just friends--that DC insists are one thing but the depicted text doesn't support it one way or the other?

    I thought of this when thinking about how, when one considers how the two characters actually interact with each other, Batman clearly hates Wonder Woman even though we're supposed to accept them as close friends because they're the "trinity" and all that.

    Look at their actual interactions over the years.

    As a start...the infamous contingency plans from Tower of Babel. Most of Bruce's plans against the Leaguers incapacitates them in one way or another. Torturous yes, but non-lethal....except for Diana. His contingency plan against her is specifically intended to give her a heart attack and die. Mister "no kill" is fully prepared to murder Wonder Woman if she "goes rogue" where everyone else just incapacitated.
    Then you have The Hiketeia, where Bruce always resorts to violence first and never considers or respects Diana's point of view or perspective. Even when he understands what the Hiketeia is and the consequences of it, he shows no regard for her safety or well-being.
    And, of course, there's the Brother Eye-Max Lord-OMAC debacle...which was pretty much all Bruce's fault and completely ruined Diana's life at that time. And rather than own up to it or even apologize, he decided she was the problem all along and went about "fixing" her without being asked.

    And those are just three specific stories. There's plenty more evidence of Bruce condescending and patronizing Diana.
    My point is...despite DC's insistence Batman and Wonder Woman are close, true friends and two-thirds of the fabled trinity...despite Bruce's occasional hollow platitudes and lip serves...he clearly hates Diana.
    He might not think he does. He might believe he actually cares about her. But actions speak louder than words, and it seems quite evident in how he treats her that Batman despises Wonder Woman.


    So that got me thinking. Are there any other phony friendships or hollow romances that the writers TELL us are a real thing, but when it comes to actually SHOWING us, it doesn't ring true?
    Or even vice versa? Are there characters that we're supposed to believe are mortal enemies, but their actual actions make them appear to be good friends?
    To be fair, their friendship before Bruce went all dark, edgy, etc. was pretty solid. And made sense. Because right now, its hard to see Bruce friends with just about anyone the way he is. Whereas say, the Adam West version, whom is even a badge carrying member of law enforcement, actually would get along well with Diana, Clark, and the others like how they're portrayed to be.

  5. #5
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    Batman with anyone. There was a time when he had legitimate friendships, but its hard to see him being friends with anyone now.

    Supergirl and the DC Universe as a whole. She has no consistent friends(DC tried with Cassie in the 2000s but that fizzled out eventually) and her closest connection, Clark barely interacts with her.

    Diana, Cassie and Donna. This isn't because their characters don't mesh, but because writer rarely use them in her books.

    Terra and Geo Force, though this is due to circumstances. Terra was implied to be very fond of him(excluding her time as a zombie during Blackest Night) and Geo Force always felt guilty about not being there for her/ keeping her on the straight and narrow. Both of them are alive now, but writers haven't had them interact for whatever reason.

  6. #6
    Ultimate Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Jason and the bat family.

    Nightwing and Jon Kent.

  7. #7
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    Bruce. With everyone, without exceptions. Because his treatment of Justice League, Bat-Family and everyone else is just terrible. The lack of any trust, manipulation, arrogance, disrespect, invasion of privacy, and the very fact that as soon as he meets someone, he immediately begins to create plans to neutralize him or her. Logically, he cannot have a normal relationship with anyone at all, but writers just make it as the fact, that everyone forgives him.
    Currently, I guess it's Damian with Ra's and Talia. Both of them tried to kill him in the past (and Talia was succesful), but currently they have a good relationship out of nowhere, even though Talia and Ra's don't deserve his love and respect.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    Nightwing and Jon Kent.
    I agree. Makes no sense, and makes Nightwing petty and self centered. The contrast between how Nightwing treats "Super" man ( aka somone who is physically invulnerable, in a supportive family, in a stable realionship, has available friends and has financial resources) and his own brothers (both of whom are have died-at least once-again-in the past year, have villians as "friends", have no family support, and no apparent resources) paints Nightwing in a very dark light. I just don't buy Nightwing as that self centered.

  9. #9
    Three Legged Member married guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buried Alien View Post
    With the New 52, DC tried to push Cyborg (Vic Stone) and Flash (Barry Allen) as friends (perhaps to match the DCEU), but it doesn't pan out. If it were Vic and Wally, that would work because they were teammates on the Titans and the same age group, but traditionally, Flash/Barry is an elder to Vic (Wally's uncle, after all). Their relationship would be respectful, but distant. I don't see them as buddies.

    Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
    Yeah, this one for me was a shocker too.
    Vic and Wally - definitely. Barry? Not so much.
    It came across to me as yet another thing DC were trying to remove from Wally and graft onto Barry.
    I wasn't a fan.
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  10. #10
    Extraordinary Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guy_McNichts View Post
    Ever consider there are relationships between characters--be it romantic or just friends--that DC insists are one thing but the depicted text doesn't support it one way or the other?

    I thought of this when thinking about how, when one considers how the two characters actually interact with each other, Batman clearly hates Wonder Woman even though we're supposed to accept them as close friends because they're the "trinity" and all that.

    Look at their actual interactions over the years.

    As a start...the infamous contingency plans from Tower of Babel. Most of Bruce's plans against the Leaguers incapacitates them in one way or another. Torturous yes, but non-lethal....except for Diana. His contingency plan against her is specifically intended to give her a heart attack and die. Mister "no kill" is fully prepared to murder Wonder Woman if she "goes rogue" where everyone else just incapacitated.
    Then you have The Hiketeia, where Bruce always resorts to violence first and never considers or respects Diana's point of view or perspective. Even when he understands what the Hiketeia is and the consequences of it, he shows no regard for her safety or well-being.
    And, of course, there's the Brother Eye-Max Lord-OMAC debacle...which was pretty much all Bruce's fault and completely ruined Diana's life at that time. And rather than own up to it or even apologize, he decided she was the problem all along and went about "fixing" her without being asked.

    And those are just three specific stories. There's plenty more evidence of Bruce condescending and patronizing Diana.
    My point is...despite DC's insistence Batman and Wonder Woman are close, true friends and two-thirds of the fabled trinity...despite Bruce's occasional hollow platitudes and lip serves...he clearly hates Diana.
    He might not think he does. He might believe he actually cares about her. But actions speak louder than words, and it seems quite evident in how he treats her that Batman despises Wonder Woman.


    So that got me thinking. Are there any other phony friendships or hollow romances that the writers TELL us are a real thing, but when it comes to actually SHOWING us, it doesn't ring true?
    Or even vice versa? Are there characters that we're supposed to believe are mortal enemies, but their actual actions make them appear to be good friends?
    The thing about the examples you've posted about Bruce and Diana is that they're mostly just unimaginative writing, and don't actually represent the history of the characters.
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  11. #11
    Incredible Member Leancarp900's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by married guy View Post
    Yeah, this one for me was a shocker too.
    Vic and Wally - definitely. Barry? Not so much.
    It came across to me as yet another thing DC were trying to remove from Wally and graft onto Barry.
    I wasn't a fan.
    I don't think that was the case. I would be shocked if the logic behind making Vic and Barry friends wasn't "Okay, Cyborg is usually paired with the comic relief of the Titans (Gar). Flash was the comic relief of the Justice League in that cartoon. So let's pair Cyborg and Flash together!". This is especially notorious in the Justice League movie.

  12. #12
    Uncanny Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buried Alien View Post
    With the New 52, DC tried to push Cyborg (Vic Stone) and Flash (Barry Allen) as friends (perhaps to match the DCEU), but it doesn't pan out. If it were Vic and Wally, that would work because they were teammates on the Titans and the same age group, but traditionally, Flash/Barry is an elder to Vic (Wally's uncle, after all). Their relationship would be respectful, but distant. I don't see them as buddies.

    Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
    Cyborg being on the League at all is an example. Since it was a rebooted origin, not a move from the Titans, it wasn't earned. They isolated him from his old mates and tried to establish entirely new relationships.
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  13. #13
    Extraordinary Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Cyborg being on the League at all is an example. Since it was a rebooted origin, not a move from the Titans, it wasn't earned. They isolated him from his old mates and tried to establish entirely new relationships.
    Reboots are by their very definition different things...if you don't allow them to be written differently then they aren't reboots.
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  14. #14
    The Fastest Post Alive! Buried Alien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Cyborg being on the League at all is an example. Since it was a rebooted origin, not a move from the Titans, it wasn't earned. They isolated him from his old mates and tried to establish entirely new relationships.
    Yeah. You can definitely have Cyborg as a member of the Justice League (an idea first introduced in the SUPER POWERS era of SUPERFRIENDS in the early 1980s), but he should be a latter day recruit who graduated/was promoted from the Titans. Retconning him as a League founder doesn't work.

    Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
    Last edited by Buried Alien; 09-03-2022 at 03:12 PM.
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  15. #15
    Extraordinary Member Primal Slayer's Avatar
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    Nowadays WW/Dianas relationship with Donna/Cassie.

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