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  1. #421

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    Quote Originally Posted by SJNeal View Post
    Unfortunately DC only applies that formula to books beginning with "Bat"....
    And even that’s a bit of a stretch with Tamkai on the second biggest Bat book, although Tynion’s Batman is superb.

    The sales are going to be in the toilet post March sadly. The creative teams just aren’t good enough.

    (Marvel are not much better)

    The artist line up is extremely strong though. I guess they’ve decided that’s where they are going to pay the decent rates.

    It’s doomed to tank. Having Riley Rossmo on a book is pointless if you are going to hire someone like Stephanie Phillips to write it.

    That said I’m feeling very positive about Yara Flor provided JoŽlle Jones continues to be involved and Ram V’s Swamp Thing should be great.

  2. #422
    Astonishing Member HsssH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SJNeal View Post
    Unfortunately DC only applies that formula to books beginning with "Bat"....
    We just got 28 issues (well 2 are still to come out) of Green Lantern that fits that formula.

  3. #423
    Incredible Member Goldrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WelcomeBackFrank View Post
    It was nothing to do with the extended Arthur & Mera separation. Abnett put together a terrific, epic run, the Kelly Sue came in, arrogantly and narcissistically ripped it apart and cobbled together a below average, unengaging run of issues.

    DC just gave the wrong writer the job and it stood out more because the prior run was so well written.

    It’s a fairly simple formula; good writers + good artists + good editors - interference = good comics

    KSD’s Aquaman was not good but it was not down to any single plot decision.
    This far from truth, A recent poll on the Aquaverse among Aquafans for the best run of the decade(bunn not included), places Abnett's run last, way behind Johns, Parker and KSD. None of his story arc even managed to make it among the best of the decade.

    Kellysue did not rip apart anything on contrary she found a book in a dead end and left one that was righted with great potential for future storytelling.

    Abnett had a strong start and it was really fun but it dragged and stretched beyond limits(just to have the Mera solo). From issue 22/23 it went off track. At the end of his run we were nowhere from the fulfillment promise of the start Rebirth began with. To be honest he had to deal with lots of editorial vetoes and had to change things endlessly due to that. His end of run was forced on him.

    KSD's first part of the run was on par if not slightly better compared with Abnett's sales.

    Although I loved her run and credit her with PAD and Johns to be the only one to make serious world building in Aquaman. She made mistakes namely she put too much on the plate, too many characters that made it confused at times.
    One of the many criticism about her run was that it was slow and she dragged on some issues too much. But the main complaint I used to read and see after every single issue, with people freaking out, was the Arthur/Mera separation and that Mera was being sidelined. As a matter of fact the later has some truth that KSD herself confirmed, she saw that Mera was overshadowing Arthur and that she took her out for that purpose.
    But ultimately even The Aquaverse guy(the most informed person on Aquaman outside Dc) tweeted that, the separation of the two main leads was drying up sales. Fans stood by her run until that dumb killing reveal of Arthur at Mera's hands. From that point the book began losing readers monthly and its seen from the sales. That issue sealed the book's fate.

    She managed to right a ship that as I said had lost direction, the only issue was that she wasted too much time on aspects she could have done quicker or avoided. Her last part of run was also hindered by 3 fillers.

    It might not have been a commercial success mainly for receiving no marketing, it had the potential to be a hit but ended a miss. No doubts in that. But it was a breath of fresh air, not the usual circular storytelling, he loses the throne etc
    Last edited by Goldrake; 01-23-2021 at 09:17 AM.

  4. #424
    Astonishing Member HsssH's Avatar
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    Could you link to that Aquaman poll? I loved what Parker did on his run and I'm interested to see how others voted on it.

  5. #425

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarFarr View Post
    This far from truth, A recent poll on the Aquaverse among Aquafans for the best run of the decade(bunn not included), places Abnett's run last, way behind Johns, Parker and KSD. None of his story arc even managed to make it among the best of the decade.

    Kellysue did not rip apart anything on contrary she found a book in a dead end and left one that was righted with great potential for future storytelling.

    Abnett had a strong start and it was really fun but it dragged and stretched beyond limits(just to have the Mera solo). From issue 22/23 it went off track. At the end of his run we were nowhere from the fulfillment promise of the start Rebirth began with. To be honest he had to deal with lots of editorial vetoes and had to change things endlessly due to that. His end of run was forced on him.

    KSD's first part of the run was on par if not slightly better compared with Abnett's sales.

    Although I loved her run and credit her with PAD and Johns to be the only one to make serious world building in Aquaman. She made mistakes namely she put too much on the plate, too many characters that made it confused at times.
    One of the many criticism about her run was that it was slow and she dragged on some issues too much. But the main complaint I used to read and see after every single issue, with people freaking out, was the Arthur/Mera separation and that Mera was being sidelined. As a matter of fact the later has some truth that KSD herself confirmed, she saw that Mera was overshadowing Arthur and that she took her out for that purpose.
    But ultimately even The Aquaverse guy(the most informed person on Aquaman outside Dc) tweeted that, the separation of the two main leads was drying up sales. Fans stood by her run until that dumb killing reveal of Arthur at Mera's hands. From that point the book began losing readers monthly and its seen from the sales. That issue sealed the book's fate.

    She managed to right a ship that as I said had lost direction, the only issue was that she wasted too much time on aspects she could have done quicker or avoided. Her last part of run was also hindered by 3 fillers.

    It might not have been a commercial success mainly for receiving no marketing, it had the potential to be a hit but ended a miss. No doubts in that. But it was a breath of fresh air, not the usual circular storytelling, he loses the throne etc
    Obviously I disagree.
    I dropped it after 4 issues because it was unegaging and a chore.

    Re your point on the sales, you are just making stuff up......which pre Internet, is a handy tactic to make a point. With the internet, thereís always the risk that someone might check.

    Drop off of 12,000 between Abnettís last issue and KSDís first. A loss of 1/3 of the readership.

    And it doesnít recover from there.

    It was a poor choice of replacement from DC.

    08/2018: Aquaman #39 -- 30,311 (+ 22.8%) [30,490]
    09/2018: Aquaman #40 -- 31,010 (+ 3.0%) [31,406]
    10/2018: Aquaman #41 -- 35,121 (+ 11.9%) [35,155]
    11/2018: Aquaman #42 -- 38,608 (+ 11.8%) [39,314]
    12/2018: Aquaman #43 -- 30,920 (- 18.1%) [32,180]
    01/2019: Aquaman #44 -- 26,416 (- 15.9%) [27,071]
    02/2019: Aquaman #45 -- 26,291 (- 1.2%) [26,754]
    03/2019: Aquaman #46 -- 24,566 (- 8.2%)
    04/2019: Aquaman #47 -- 25,442 (+ 3.6%)
    05/2019: Aquaman #48 -- 24,421 (- 4.0%)
    06/2019: Aquaman #49 -- 23,284 (- 4.7%)
    07/2019: Aquaman #50 -- 26,286 (+ 12.9%)

  6. #426
    Astonishing Member cranger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WelcomeBackFrank View Post
    Obviously I disagree.
    I dropped it after 4 issues because it was unegaging and a chore.

    Re your point on the sales, you are just making stuff up......which pre Internet, is a handy tactic to make a point. With the internet, there’s always the risk that someone might check.

    Drop off of 12,000 between Abnett’s last issue and KSD’s first. A loss of 1/3 of the readership.

    And it doesn’t recover from there.

    It was a poor choice of replacement from DC.

    08/2018: Aquaman #39 -- 30,311 (+ 22.8%) [30,490]
    09/2018: Aquaman #40 -- 31,010 (+ 3.0%) [31,406]
    10/2018: Aquaman #41 -- 35,121 (+ 11.9%) [35,155]
    11/2018: Aquaman #42 -- 38,608 (+ 11.8%) [39,314]
    12/2018: Aquaman #43 -- 30,920 (- 18.1%) [32,180]
    01/2019: Aquaman #44 -- 26,416 (- 15.9%) [27,071]
    02/2019: Aquaman #45 -- 26,291 (- 1.2%) [26,754]
    03/2019: Aquaman #46 -- 24,566 (- 8.2%)
    04/2019: Aquaman #47 -- 25,442 (+ 3.6%)
    05/2019: Aquaman #48 -- 24,421 (- 4.0%)
    06/2019: Aquaman #49 -- 23,284 (- 4.7%)
    07/2019: Aquaman #50 -- 26,286 (+ 12.9%)
    I thought KSD was a bore and starting her run off with a story about some homeless dude hanging out in a fishing village full of old people was not going to hook enough people. It would not seem that being a Bendis 'hire' helped gain any eyes to the book either. The art was amazing, and I suffered through the first big arc just for it.

    However, the Abnett issues you included in your comparison are all from the crossover event which I believe gave the book a bump from his previous numbers.

  7. #427
    Incredible Member Goldrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WelcomeBackFrank View Post
    Obviously I disagree.
    I dropped it after 4 issues because it was unegaging and a chore.

    Re your point on the sales, you are just making stuff up......which pre Internet, is a handy tactic to make a point. With the internet, there’s always the risk that someone might check.

    Drop off of 12,000 between Abnett’s last issue and KSD’s first. A loss of 1/3 of the readership.

    And it doesn’t recover from there.

    It was a poor choice of replacement from DC.

    08/2018: Aquaman #39 -- 30,311 (+ 22.8%) [30,490]
    09/2018: Aquaman #40 -- 31,010 (+ 3.0%) [31,406]
    10/2018: Aquaman #41 -- 35,121 (+ 11.9%) [35,155]
    11/2018: Aquaman #42 -- 38,608 (+ 11.8%) [39,314]
    12/2018: Aquaman #43 -- 30,920 (- 18.1%) [32,180]
    01/2019: Aquaman #44 -- 26,416 (- 15.9%) [27,071]
    02/2019: Aquaman #45 -- 26,291 (- 1.2%) [26,754]
    03/2019: Aquaman #46 -- 24,566 (- 8.2%)
    04/2019: Aquaman #47 -- 25,442 (+ 3.6%)
    05/2019: Aquaman #48 -- 24,421 (- 4.0%)
    06/2019: Aquaman #49 -- 23,284 (- 4.7%)
    07/2019: Aquaman #50 -- 26,286 (+ 12.9%)
    Nice try, Those refer to the last part of Abnett's run with JL crossover....so much for making up!!!!! but previously it was on par With Ksd's first part of her run.
    06/2017: Aquaman #25 -- 27,793 (+ 5.1%)
    07/2017: Aquaman #26 -- 27,702 (- 0.3%)
    08/2017: Aquaman #27 -- 28,677 (+ 3.5%)
    09/2017: Aquaman #28 -- 28,081 (- 2.1%)
    10/2017: Aquaman #29 -- 27,559 (- 1.9%)
    11/2017: Aquaman #30 -- 27,243 (- 1.1%)
    12/2017: Aquaman #31 -- 25,474 (- 6.5%)
    01/2018: Aquaman #32 -- 25,232 (- 0.9%)
    02/2018: Aquaman #33 -- 24,974 (- 1.0%)
    03/2018: Aquaman #34 -- 24,323 (- 2.6%)
    04/2018: Aquaman #35 -- 23,594 (- 3.0%)
    05/2018: Aquaman #36 -- 23,057 (- 2.3%)
    06/2018: Aquaman #37 -- 24,076 (+ 4.4%)
    07/2018: Aquaman #38 -- 24,836 (+ 3.2%)
    08/2018: Aquaman #39 -- 30,311 (+ 22.0%)

    BTW if you dropped after 4 issues how do you know what went on?

    Quote Originally Posted by cranger View Post
    I thought KSD was a bore and starting her run off with a story about some homeless dude hanging out in a fishing village full of old people was not going to hook enough people. It would not seem that being a Bendis 'hire' helped gain any eyes to the book either. The art was amazing, and I suffered through the first big arc just for it.

    However, the Abnett issues you included in your comparison are all from the crossover event which I believe gave the book a bump from his previous numbers.
    The sales he posted are about the crossover.
    KSD first part of run was on par with pre-cross over sales of Abnett. But despite Yes the prolonged Amnesiac arc, Fans kept on board until the reveal of who killed Arthur. although I liked the run, it was really dumb. From that point the book lost readers. When I read that reveal I said to myself she was gonna lose readers and so it was.

    However the second part of run was brilliant although the ending a little bit rushed. And the art in the second part was even better.
    At the end She righted a ship that was in a dead end when she took over.

    BTW - It wasn't Bendis that brought her to Aquaman, she was offered Supergirl whom she refused "another blonde" was her reply. It was Didio who offered her the book and she accepted after talking with Johns. She also accepted on condition that she could have freedom to disengage the book from the dead end it was in. Which honestly was the case.
    She also asked for a new numbering for the book but Didio refused that, but agreed for a soft reboot.
    Last edited by Goldrake; 01-23-2021 at 02:12 PM.

  8. #428

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarFarr View Post

    BTW if you dropped after 4 issues how do you know what went on?
    .
    I donít read comics Iím not enjoying. Hate reading issue after issue then complaining about it on the internet is not really my thing. 4 issues is more than enough of a chance to give a book, which I did so knowing that Kelly Sue is not a good writer. I gave her a chance and it was crap.

  9. #429
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    Quote Originally Posted by WelcomeBackFrank View Post

    DC just gave the wrong writer the job and it stood out more because the prior run was so well written.

    Itís a fairly simple formula; good writers + good artists + good editors - interference = good comics


    KSDís Aquaman was not good but it was not down to any single plot decision.
    There are artist and writers who would disagree with that. Including plenty of color and sexual orientation.

    Who have seen their books attacked-no matter the quality. Because someone (or someones) felt they were NOT good enough for that book and roster in question.

    There have been plenty of good books that got ignored and were BETTER than other books that had sales. I am sure Image, Boom, Valiant and other companies would have LOVED sales and business from those "upset" with DC and Marvel give their books a try.

    Instead of joining "groups" who did nothing but harassing, dox and threatened people.


    The sales are going to be in the toilet post March sadly. The creative teams just arenít good enough.
    Okay so when Scott Lodbell is writing half of DC's books-don't complain. Of give all the books to Bendis.

    If everyone is going to write off all these folks before a single issue is out-lets give the same folks books. The SAME folks who have HELPED in Super Hero book sales go down.

    How about let the books come out FIRST and then judge?

  10. #430
    Incredible Member Goldrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WelcomeBackFrank View Post
    I don’t read comics I’m not enjoying. Hate reading issue after issue then complaining about it on the internet is not really my thing. 4 issues is more than enough of a chance to give a book, which I did so knowing that Kelly Sue is not a good writer. I gave her a chance and it was crap.
    A run is judged at the end not after 4 issues. But that's up to each and one of us.

    Anyhow you claimed previously the book lost readers, not because of the AquaMera separation, well the book started to lose readers when it was revealed that Mera killed Arthur some 7/8 issues into her run, with a dumb tantrum.
    As sales proof it, at that point that the book started to drop readers not previously. As the separation dragged on, the book continued to lose readers even more. With fans freaking after every issue, she wanted to split them apart, when she made it obvious she was playing a penelope.

    But before that, it was on the level of abnett as I proofed and not using the JL crossover to try and cover up Abnett's sales, as you did.

    Yes KSD made a big mistake with that that separation dragging on, it ultimately hurt what she was doing by righting the ship in the second part of her run brilliantly, but by then fans had dropped and did not comeback.

    Until then it was on par with Abnett's run no ifs no buts. She managed to break the circular storytelling in Aquaman, explored the 7 kingdoms something that not even Johns managed to achieve, brought in Andy, Jackson after 10 years absence, the Aqua wedding, Made better use of Tula, Vulko and Dolphin etc

  11. #431
    Extraordinary Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Damn, and here I've been thinking it's been one long, great wave for Aquaman since 2011 with the one hitch being the six Bunn issues a bit before Rebirth.

    Each run had its ups and downs. Are we pretending Abnett's Rath arc didn't take six months too long to conclude?

  12. #432

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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    There are artist and writers who would disagree with that. Including plenty of color and sexual orientation.

    Who have seen their books attacked-no matter the quality. Because someone (or someones) felt they were NOT good enough for that book and roster in question.

    There have been plenty of good books that got ignored and were BETTER than other books that had sales. I am sure Image, Boom, Valiant and other companies would have LOVED sales and business from those "upset" with DC and Marvel give their books a try.

    Instead of joining "groups" who did nothing but harassing, dox and threatened people.




    Okay so when Scott Lodbell is writing half of DC's books-don't complain. Of give all the books to Bendis.

    If everyone is going to write off all these folks before a single issue is out-lets give the same folks books. The SAME folks who have HELPED in Super Hero book sales go down.

    How about let the books come out FIRST and then judge?
    Oh dear. You are one of those guys. Dragging politics into entertainment.

    I judge books on the quality and entertainment, not the colour, gender or sexuality of the creators attached to them.
    Anyone doing otherwise is incapable of an objective opinion.

    I donít read Scott Lobdell books because I donít enjoy his work.
    I stopped reading Bendis books, because again I donít enjoy his work.

    Judge a personís work on merit only. So I go back to my equation again;
    Good writers + good artists + good editors - interference = good comics

    As for the books, I buy books by creators I like and then take a few chances on creators whose work I am not as familiar with. DCís line up for March is very little to get excited about in terms of the solicited storylines and attached writers.

    Iíll be picking up Swamp Thing and Batman and thatís about it. Iíll pick Justice League Dark up in trade because I ainít buying a Bendis Justice League comic to read a Ram V JLD backup. So hopefully JLD gets collected.
    I donít owe anyone at DC a wage by paying $3.99-4.99 for books I have no interest in by writers I have no interest in. Iíll check the stuff on the DC subscription app when the appear there and if anything is great then Iíll pick up a collection.

    No point in pretending the March line up is great, no matter how much you want to drag gender and race politics into comics. I donít do politics in comics. Itís escapism from this left and right lunatic crap that has invaded every other aspect of life.

    Iíll vote with my wallet.

  13. #433

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarFarr View Post
    A run is judged at the end not after 4 issues. But that's up to each and one of us.
    Why would I keep buying and reading something I think is a piece of shit?
    So I can argue about it on the Internet?

  14. #434
    Incredible Member Goldrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Damn, and here I've been thinking it's been one long, great wave for Aquaman since 2011 with the one hitch being the six Bunn issues a bit before Rebirth.

    Each run had its ups and downs. Are we pretending Abnett's Rath arc didn't take six months too long to conclude?
    Even more than six months too long.

    KSD achieved a lot in 20 issues she had for a run, it wasn't perfect with a slow start, but she delivered very much and she did not have 42issues to do that and no double shipping monthly. Maybe she put too much on the plate!

    Yes, She made mistakes that ultimately hurt the book, but she made it so obvious that she was playing a Penelope with that subtle message of Mera reading the Odyssey. With Every issue if you remember, fans freaked unnecessary, still recall "she called Vulko darling" etc. and that freaking out was the reason for the dropping of sales, no less no more.

    When after all KellySue broke that circular pattern in Aquaman storytelling, leaving a book with lots of potential for future storylines and not a book in a dead end.

    But I agree Aquaman had a great ride since 2011, some run's had their highs and lows.

  15. #435
    Incredible Member Goldrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WelcomeBackFrank View Post
    Why would I keep buying and reading something I think is a piece of shit?
    So I can argue about it on the Internet?
    Than don't make claims you can't know about, because you claimed that the book DID NOT drop readers because of the Arthur/Mera separation. When it was that particular reason for the sales to drop. And the numbers proof it.

    You even tried to portrait Abnett sales as being higher using the JL crossover and said I was the one making it up. Until the murder reveal the book was at Abnett's REAL level of sales. Also, When you stopped reading the book KSD had the same sales of Abnett and continued for some months at that level.

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