The Car Thread

[achilles]

Are you kidding me? Station wagon? That thing? I doubt it could carry enough luggage for an overnight trip for one. I'm guessing it's selling price is in high five figures, or not close to six. And yeah, it IS ugly. Hard pass.

It's about $365,000, IIRC.

[achilles]

If you want a new ICE car, you'd best get it by 2027, because by fiat of the EPA, at Biden's order, you will not be able to afford one, assuming any are still made for the US market. By 2032, 2/3rds of all cars sold in the US will have to be EVs, no matter how ready they are.

So let's check that. Hertz, the big car rental outfit, is in serious, existential trouble because of the huge bet two successive CEOs made on EVs, buy tens of thousands of Teslas, and also of other EV makers. What happened was a combination of factors. First, no customers wanted to rent them, because usually they didn't want to drive twenty miles just to find a charger. And they didn't want the stress of fearing running out far from a charger. Second, they cost vastly more to service after accidents than ICE cars. Third, they are nearly twice as expensive on average as ICE cars, and since Tesla has been driving down new vehicle costs, so the used market has gone down in price as well, meaning Hertz can't sell their used cars as is standard practice.

For owners of such cars, a home charger is a must, which also usually means both a garage, and a costly rewire job to install a charger. EVs work best as second cars for urban owners who don't plan on driving them long distances. And EV trucks are in a word, garbage. They are electric certainly, but they fail at ever task a pick-up is asked to do typically. They can't tow much, they can't haul much in the bed, they have the other faults common to EVs, and they can't even reliably do off-road, (many Rivian trucks have been dealt minor damage that runs to the tens of thousands of dollars to repair when they get stuck in minor snow drifts that nearly all ICE trucks and similar vehicles can easily manage. An another common problem with EVs in general is ambient temperature. Once it gets out of SoCal in the Spring range, the ability of those batteries to accept and hold a charge goes down.

This is the time Biden chose to have the EPA make and implement the rules that will make owning an ICE vehicle defacto impossible for any but the rich. This needs a rethink, and it needs to be scrapped. The tech, infrastructure, and economics aren't there for EVs to be anything other than that second car for rich urbanites.

[Kirby101]

We can figure out how to do this and build the infrastructure. Or we can drown. I know my choice.

[achilles]

We can figure out how to do this and build the infrastructure. Or we can drown. I know my choice.

It's not that, it's that it is supposed to be done so quickly. You can't just mandate either infrastructure or scientific breakthroughs, both of which are needed, along with engineering breakthroughs. For example, there is NEVI where the act allocates $5 billion to build charging stations, (public). That was about a year and a half ago. One station was finally built, way out of the way from anyone, a month and change ago.

And to make EVs even partly work, you need a home charging station, which means you need a house, and probably many thousands to rewire said house and install a charger. How's that going to play with the many, many people who don't even have a house? Basically, you can't magic EVs into practical existence. Which is what Biden's trying to do.

What he's doing is going to destroy the economy by bringing transportation to a halt. This needs a total rethink, and the new EPA regs they're using to get this done need to be repealed.

[Kirby101]

I agree infrastructure is lagging behind. And I think that will delay implementation of these rules. I am just saying we have to do it.

[WestPhillyPunisher]

I agree infrastructure is lagging behind. And I think that will delay implementation of these rules. I am just saying we have to do it.

Of that there's no doubt. While I'm of the opinion the best choice are hybrids instead of the cold turkey approach of going from ICE straight to electric, the world has no choice but to ween itself off fossil fuels which are by no means infinite.

[Kirby101]

Of that there's no doubt. While I'm of the opinion the best choice are hybrids instead of the cold turkey approach of going from ICE straight to electric, the world has no choice but to ween itself off fossil fuels which are by no means infinite.

Every time we elect a Republican, we are set back 10 years. Carter had a plan to ween us from FF in 25 years, 50 years ago! Al Gore was going to address Climate Change in 2000. Instead, they want us to be distracted by Trans Kids and those bad immigrants.
We have the means to do this, just not the will.

[achilles]

Of that there's no doubt. While I'm of the opinion the best choice are hybrids instead of the cold turkey approach of going from ICE straight to electric, the world has no choice but to ween itself off fossil fuels which are by no means infinite.

I like the non-plug in hybrids. But even they are insufficient to some jobs, like those of pick-up trucks that are actually used to haul and tow and go off-road in any weather. That remains the domain of ICE trucks.

[Ghost Rider TheHellfireDemon]

It is quite a beautiful car.

It is, however, I changed my mind to a 1980 Red Corvette with modifications including a Corvette Z06 engine installed. It would look like a Ferrari, sound like a Ferrari, move like a Ferrari however cost a lot less cash than a New 2023 Corvette Z06 which is the American Ferrari.

[Scott Taylor]

Every time we elect a Republican, we are set back 10 years. Carter had a plan to ween us from FF in 25 years, 50 years ago! Al Gore was going to address Climate Change in 2000. Instead, they want us to be distracted by Trans Kids and those bad immigrants.
We have the means to do this, just not the will.

Carter had both houses and the country had just had the worst energy crisis ever, and he had THE giants of working the intricacies of bipartisan politics in Congress, yet his energy bill failed to pass.

So its true, we don't have the will. Because cars are still a necessity. And by we, I mean not only the United States but also the world. China, for instance, is the largest worldwide consumer of oil. And most countries in the world are similarly tied to oil, natural gas and coal supplies - all limited resources. Renewable gets a lot of press but its share of global energy sourcing has only risen by a couple of percent points in the past 50 years. The political mix operating in government, progressive majority or conservative, has not mattered a bit.

On topic, I feel that these mandates are a matter of environmental justice. They favor the rich, whether intended or not, because EVs have such a high entry price. As mentioned above, its not just the cost of the vehicle, but also charging stations at home, power banks at home, energy sourcing at home (solar, etc.) all are involved in making EVs viable across the board. Barring a decree by fiat, and substantial redirection of public funds, the infrastructure is simply not going to be there for everyone in the time allotted.

I also remain unconvinced that EVs are all that great of an environmental solution, other than on paper. The solution, to me, is to make vehicle use a luxury rather than a necessity. Ironically COVID helped a lot in that matter by convincing much of the corporate world that remote work is viable. Work on that. And in the meantime, erode the car culture thing.

[Kirby101]

The only way to do that is by building up public transit. Another thing we simply don't do.
And renewables globally is one statistic. Renewables in countries making an effort is another. It will be 30% to 40% in Europe by 2030.
Even a Red State like Texas has substantial renewable percentages.
The thing is, if we don't do something, we will die.

[achilles]

The only way to do that is by building up public transit. Another thing we simply don't do.
And renewables globally is one statistic. Renewables in countries making an effort is another. It will be 30% to 40% in Europe by 2030.
Even a Red State like Texas has substantial renewable percentages.
The thing is, if we don't do something, we will die.

I personally favor making federal money on a scale that would matter available to homeowners for rooftop solar panels, batteries for storage at night, and charging stations. That would take a lot of stress off the grid, (which we desperately need to do anyway), lower homeowner's energy costs, and get more people to buy these things. Though they still only make sense for a few people.

Interestingly, a local PD has started to use some model of Tesla, but the spokesman quickly added that in chases, gas cars would take part. Hard to do a pitt maneuver when just a light touch on the fender results in a $50,000 repair bill, (yes, that may be exaggerated a bit). And/or sets the police car on fire. Sounded like it was a mandate from the city council.

Meanwhile, strangely, I've seen two Uruses in two days! I may consult my doctor...oh wait, it's just a Lambo SUV. They are quite rare even here though. The only rarer exotics are any Aston and a Nissan GTR, of which I've only seen one on the road. And the only way I recognized it was seeing the badging. It just looks like a Sentra or something. And there is one exotic I've never seen, the Lexus LFA. Again, not sure if I'd even know it was an LFA if I saw it, but the cost....why would someone buy something like that which looks like well, a Lexus, and costs more than a house in some places?

[Scott Taylor]

I personally favor making federal money on a scale that would matter available to homeowners for rooftop solar panels, batteries for storage at night, and charging stations. That would take a lot of stress off the grid, (which we desperately need to do anyway), lower homeowner's energy costs, and get more people to buy these things. Though they still only make sense for a few people.

Interestingly, a local PD has started to use some model of Tesla, but the spokesman quickly added that in chases, gas cars would take part. Hard to do a pitt maneuver when just a light touch on the fender results in a $50,000 repair bill, (yes, that may be exaggerated a bit). And/or sets the police car on fire. Sounded like it was a mandate from the city council.

Meanwhile, strangely, I've seen two Uruses in two days! I may consult my doctor...oh wait, it's just a Lambo SUV. They are quite rare even here though. The only rarer exotics are any Aston and a Nissan GTR, of which I've only seen one on the road. And the only way I recognized it was seeing the badging. It just looks like a Sentra or something. And there is one exotic I've never seen, the Lexus LFA. Again, not sure if I'd even know it was an LFA if I saw it, but the cost....why would someone buy something like that which looks like well, a Lexus, and costs more than a house in some places?

Seeing how a Tesla powerwall/Solar panel combo has worked for a buddy of mine, to supply power both for his home and give back to the grid - I can't help but agree. Decentralizing the production of power into individual home and business owners could do quite a lot to reduce the need for new large scale infrastructure, too. There are subsidies and rebates for it in California but the initial investment price is still too high for most to participate. Nevertheless, I do think its a pretty good answer to a lot of the energy problems we face.