General Discussion about the Speed Force

[Alpha]

Yo guys, I really wanted to have a general discussion about Speed Force and see the different opinions people have about it. At this point it has become sort of a staple of the Flash stories, (although Young Justice for example has notably not made any reference to it), but it's one of those things where it has gained so many meanings that at this point I don't think I like the general use of it. It is now essentially a neo sentient version of the marvel concept of Darkforce. It's another plane of existence with special properties that can do all sort of things and has ome inate desires and rules that are enforced by beings like Dark Flash. I like the idea of it being a literal force, like gravity and electromagnetism, that augments momentum and dilates time, but the idea of it being a dimention never sat well with me because it kind of creates this fundamental underpining of the universe that is only useful for the extended Flash family. Even though it involves the entire universe it always centers entirely around Flash. It also takes his stories into this extradimensional space when I think they should probably center on the world around him, even with the bizarre aspects like telepathic gorillas.

My questions are: What do you guys think is the Speed Force should be in the universe? What powers do you think it should give? How should it interact with our world? And what rules should it have?

[Buried Alien]

I think the FLASH franchise has forgotten how to tell Flash stories without it.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Jabare]

I think the speed force is kind of wonky so it's best to keep it as vague as possible for future writers and stories.

[Tzigone]

I think the speed force is kind of wonky so it's best to keep it as vague as possible for future writers and stories.

That's the worst to me - I hate that it has no set rules, doesn't behave consistently, and is just used in any way they want for a plot-device. Makes it feel cheap and lazy.

I will say I don't really like the concept of the Speed Force. Perhaps because I first saw YJ cartoon (well, actually, I watched JL cartoons and even saw reruns of the 1990s Flash series before that), then I read all the silver age Flash (ironically, to get to know Wally from the beginning, but I wound up adoring Barry), so for me the franchise was firmly established as not needing a Speed Force. It over complicates a simple, easy, direct origin (I don't even need the meta gene). Plus I seem to remember a dig at Barry's scientific mind refusing to consider/accept there was more to the world, which really rubbed me the wrong way (because I liked him, because I'm sick and tired of the scientists-who-don't-accept-magic-are-real-blind-ones, and because he worked with Zatanna). But I could be making that up or getting it from a conversation I read where someone speculated or something. Anyway, it definitely moved origins from a more strictly science-fiction to a metaphysical sort of thing, and I'm not a fan of that, really.

[Alpha]

That's the worst to me - I hate that it has no set rules, doesn't behave consistently, and is just used in any way they want for a plot-device. Makes it feel cheap and lazy.

I will say I don't really like the concept of the Speed Force. Perhaps because I first saw YJ cartoon (well, actually, I watched JL cartoons and even saw reruns of the 1990s Flash series before that), then I read all the silver age Flash (ironically, to get to know Wally from the beginning, but I wound up adoring Barry), so for me the franchise was firmly established as not needing a Speed Force. It over complicates a simple, easy, direct origin (I don't even need the meta gene). Plus I seem to remember a dig at Barry's scientific mind refusing to consider/accept there was more to the world, which really rubbed me the wrong way (because I liked him, because I'm sick and tired of the scientists-who-don't-accept-magic-are-real-blind-ones, and because he worked with Zatanna). But I could be making that up or getting it from a conversation I read where someone speculated or something. Anyway, it definitely moved origins from a more strictly science-fiction to a metaphysical sort of thing, and I'm not a fan of that, really.

Yeah it's the metaphysical aspect of it that bothers me. Like I understand the idea that Flash maybe has a different way of interacting with matter, and the speed force being an energy that is attracted and maybe powers him. I can even maybe accept the idea that somehow he himself could be turned into that energy. But it being a dimension, it creating things like the Black Flash? It being able to choose to take his powers away? This seems to drag away from the character for me.

[Ascended]

My questions are: What do you guys think is the Speed Force should be in the universe? What powers do you think it should give? How should it interact with our world? And what rules should it have?

I've always thought of the speed force as the source of kinetic energy in the universe/multiverse. It's the ability to go from "here" to "there." Any movement is due to the speed force; your blood pumping, your tires rotating, your eyes swerving as you read this....all possible because of the speed force. In my head it's a unified force, like gravity and the electromagnetic spectrum but on a multiversal scale; one of those fundamental building blocks of reality. And according to Morrison's multiverse map, the speed force is also what divides matter from energy and keeps the physical multiverse separated from the god sphere.

I figure things like the Black Flash, the embodiment of death for speedsters, that's just (Endless') Death reaching from the god sphere, through the speed force, into the material world because otherwise Death can't actually catch a Flash. So the Black Flash (or is it the Dark Flash? Isn't the Dark Flash just Walter West?) isn't a singular entity, it's just a glove that Death wears to catch fast people.

I figure a speedster does "return to the speed force" when they die, and I like the idea of them becoming the bolt of lightning that gave them powers in the first place. But that's just the speed force rubbing up against the timestream/still force; its natural opposite. Seems to me if the speed force is the ability to go from "there" to "here" then the still force/time is the ability to distinguish "then" from "now." And in the same way the unifying forces rub up against each other and help define each other, the speed force and still force do the same. So sometimes a speedster dying ripples across the speed force, that interacts with the still force, and the friction causes a paradox loop where the speedster becomes his own origin story lightning bolt. And there's likely other forces in the "speed/still force unifying field" but I don't think they're the ones Williamson introduced in his Force Quest arc.

And I don't think the speed force has any sentience of its own. What it has are echoes of previous speedsters floating around in it and that can sometimes give the appearance of agency and awareness.

Oh, and in my head Hunter "Zoom" Zolomon didn't tap into the speed force, he was tapping into the still force. Back in the day he didn't run fast, he ran at a normal pace but accelerated his personal clock to mimic speed. Not sure if newer writers have held to that distinction or not, but Hunter was never a speedster like Wally, he was more like a Turtle who used his powers in reverse; speeding himself up instead of slowing everyone else down (same basic result anyway).

What powers should it give? Realistically "kinetic control," and that covers a whole ton of possible things. But people are funny creatures and 90% of the time we manifest this limitless power in a way our brains can comprehend and understand, and "running fast" is easier to mentally process and translate than "control the foundational field of energy that allows for the movement of atomic particles and helps hold the multiverse together." This is why Barry's feats are all science based while Wally's were more fantastical. Barry viewed the speed force through the lens of physics, Wally (eventually) understood that the speed force isn't so much bound by the laws of physics as it is a major part in writing them, so if Wally can control the speed force and the speed force influences physics....physics then is whatever Wally can twist the speed force into doing.

Johnny Quick's speed formula is the keystone piece of math required to understand the science of the speed force. Not sure if others have used that formula to gain speed, if not then there may be some kind of latent metagene at work that allows the Quicks to tap into the power with the equation as a focal point.

Oh and Barry didn't create it. Bart didn't contain it in his body. They just think they did.

[king81992]

I think the FLASH franchise has forgotten how to tell Flash stories without it.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

You are 100% correct.At times it feels like Barry is a meat suit getting dragged around by the whims of the Speed Force and not an actual character.

[king81992]

Yo guys, I really wanted to have a general discussion about Speed Force and see the different opinions people have about it. At this point it has become sort of a staple of the Flash stories, (although Young Justice for example has notably not made any reference to it), but it's one of those things where it has gained so many meanings that at this point I don't think I like the general use of it. It is now essentially a neo sentient version of the marvel concept of Darkforce. It's another plane of existence with special properties that can do all sort of things and has ome inate desires and rules that are enforced by beings like Dark Flash. I like the idea of it being a literal force, like gravity and electromagnetism, that augments momentum and dilates time, but the idea of it being a dimention never sat well with me because it kind of creates this fundamental underpining of the universe that is only useful for the extended Flash family. Even though it involves the entire universe it always centers entirely around Flash. It also takes his stories into this extradimensional space when I think they should probably center on the world around him, even with the bizarre aspects like telepathic gorillas.

My questions are: What do you guys think is the Speed Force should be in the universe? What powers do you think it should give? How should it interact with our world? And what rules should it have?

I get the impression that the Speed Force is alive, sentient and manipulating all speedsters for its own sinister agenda.

[Alpha]

I've always thought of the speed force as the source of kinetic energy in the universe/multiverse. It's the ability to go from "here" to "there." Any movement is due to the speed force; your blood pumping, your tires rotating, your eyes swerving as you read this....all possible because of the speed force. In my head it's a unified force, like gravity and the electromagnetic spectrum but on a multiversal scale; one of those fundamental building blocks of reality. And according to Morrison's multiverse map, the speed force is also what divides matter from energy and keeps the physical multiverse separated from the god sphere.

I figure things like the Black Flash, the embodiment of death for speedsters, that's just (Endless') Death reaching from the god sphere, through the speed force, into the material world because otherwise Death can't actually catch a Flash. So the Black Flash (or is it the Dark Flash? Isn't the Dark Flash just Walter West?) isn't a singular entity, it's just a glove that Death wears to catch fast people.

I figure a speedster does "return to the speed force" when they die, and I like the idea of them becoming the bolt of lightning that gave them powers in the first place. But that's just the speed force rubbing up against the timestream/still force; its natural opposite. Seems to me if the speed force is the ability to go from "there" to "here" then the still force/time is the ability to distinguish "then" from "now." And in the same way the unifying forces rub up against each other and help define each other, the speed force and still force do the same. So sometimes a speedster dying ripples across the speed force, that interacts with the still force, and the friction causes a paradox loop where the speedster becomes his own origin story lightning bolt. And there's likely other forces in the "speed/still force unifying field" but I don't think they're the ones Williamson introduced in his Force Quest arc.

And I don't think the speed force has any sentience of its own. What it has are echoes of previous speedsters floating around in it and that can sometimes give the appearance of agency and awareness.

Oh, and in my head Hunter "Zoom" Zolomon didn't tap into the speed force, he was tapping into the still force. Back in the day he didn't run fast, he ran at a normal pace but accelerated his personal clock to mimic speed. Not sure if newer writers have held to that distinction or not, but Hunter was never a speedster like Wally, he was more like a Turtle who used his powers in reverse; speeding himself up instead of slowing everyone else down (same basic result anyway).

What powers should it give? Realistically "kinetic control," and that covers a whole ton of possible things. But people are funny creatures and 90% of the time we manifest this limitless power in a way our brains can comprehend and understand, and "running fast" is easier to mentally process and translate than "control the foundational field of energy that allows for the movement of atomic particles and helps hold the multiverse together." This is why Barry's feats are all science based while Wally's were more fantastical. Barry viewed the speed force through the lens of physics, Wally (eventually) understood that the speed force isn't so much bound by the laws of physics as it is a major part in writing them, so if Wally can control the speed force and the speed force influences physics....physics then is whatever Wally can twist the speed force into doing.

Johnny Quick's speed formula is the keystone piece of math required to understand the science of the speed force. Not sure if others have used that formula to gain speed, if not then there may be some kind of latent metagene at work that allows the Quicks to tap into the power with the equation as a focal point.

Oh and Barry didn't create it. Bart didn't contain it in his body. They just think they did.

I really like that nuance you described of how Black Flash might work.

I suppose my issue might not even be that the speed force has all the implications you mentioned (which are still different from various comics and tv shows). What I dislike is that Barry Allen, Wally West, Max Mercury, and etc, have felt the manifestation of the speed force to such a profound degree. Something that complex should only manifest to them as a form of energy with bizarre interactions with matter.

This is like us understanding dark matter. Even if we were able to manipulate it, we are hundreds, if not thousands of years away from seeing how it works or what it is. If an alien civilization used the speed force as it's main source of energy I could understand them over the millenia coming to understand how it works. But these few humans coming to understand anything else about it makes no sense when there is no prior scientific basis.

And it is also a really extravagant concept that throws Flash's mythology far beyond him just being a guy with powers that goes on crazy adventures. Now he is someone that is studying one of the physical underpinings of the universe.

[married guy]

I actually really liked the idea of the Speed Force when it was first introduced.
A semi-sentient nirvana for speedsters who die running.
I liked the fact it selected both good and bad (Savitar was definitely a bad choice) and that through it, speedsters were reincarnated using their energy to power another.
The problem arose AFTER Mark Waid left. Every man and his dog started using it ad nauseam and adding their own spin to it.
It's now something that grates on me every time it's mentioned and needs to be put away for the next decade.

[DrNewGod]

I actually really liked the idea of the Speed Force when it was first introduced.
A semi-sentient nirvana for speedsters who die running.
I liked the fact it selected both good and bad (Savitar was definitely a bad choice) and that through it, speedsters were reincarnated using their energy to power another.
The problem arose AFTER Mark Waid left. Every man and his dog started using it ad nauseam and adding their own spin to it.
It's now something that grates on me every time it's mentioned and needs to be put away for the next decade.

^Kind of this.^ It had utility in Waid's story, but was mismanaged after.

Among the things about The Speed Force I didn't like was that it made all the speedsters essentially generic. That being the case, as The Flash (whoever owns the name at the time) is basically DC's Speedster Supreme, why can't he fly like Johnny/Jessie Quick?

Yes, you can say different people channel it (or are allowed to channel it) differently. Still, it diminishes The Flash if he can't master all of its forms, and commodicizes superspeed as a whole (if you're not kryptonian or amazon).

It's undoubtedly selfish personal preference, but the idea that similar power effects (superspeed and reflexes, for example) might come from more than one source appeals to me. It also lets speedsters be disdinct, with the Quicks able to fly while the Flashes can phase thru solid objects for example.

[kalai]

I think they should really have some other power source for Super-Speed.
The reason Super hero comic is unique is that you get magic, alien, technology, parallel universe, mutation, gods and all these different thing.
Why make every speedster connected to Speed-Force is beyond me.

Same goes for Green Lantern,
Earth-2's Lantern of The Green is really good, why make everyone members of the Corps?
There can be magic lantern, god lantern, demon lantern and whatever, but no, all part of the Corps.

[Frontier]

I think the FLASH franchise has forgotten how to tell Flash stories without it.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Well, while it has come up a lot lately, I don't think every arc in the current volume has involved the Speed Force.

I get the impression that the Speed Force is alive, sentient and manipulating all speedsters for its own sinister agenda.

That would be an interesting contrast with the TV show where it was a benevolent figure that took the form of Barry's mother and was constantly trying to help him.

[king81992]

Well, while it has come up a lot lately, I don't think every arc in the current volume has involved the Speed Force.

That would be an interesting contrast with the TV show where it was a benevolent figure that took the form of Barry's mother and was constantly trying to help him.

Eh, I felt that the TV show flip-flopped on that, even though the Speed Force took the form of Barry's mom and tried to help him, it felt like emotional manipulation to me at times.

[Frontier]

Eh, I felt that the TV show flip-flopped on that, even though the Speed Force took the form of Barry's mom and tried to help him, it felt like emotional manipulation to me at times.

The only time it felt like the Speed Force in the TV show manipulated him was when it implied Zoom killing Henry was a test to see if Barry could move on from his grief...which he failed by causing Flashpoint.