Page 2 of 7 FirstFirst 123456 ... LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 105
  1. #16
    The Last Dragon masterwitcher88's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    421

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    I'm not. I keep getting bored with the fight scenes in third acts of most of these films. Doctor Strange had a great third act despite being really weak the rest of the film. Civil War and Infinity War were great too. I enjoyed the visuals of Aquaman but it was still much longer than it should have been.

    But the big issue is never how long the action is, it's that there has to exist some interesting plot progression and character development alongside it. It's boring if its just minutes and minutes of the characters creating obstacles for each other and then one of them dies or gets seriously hurt, and then they find more obstacles and they fail, but they get back up again, and then something weird changes the dynamics but they go back to fighting or shooting, or racing, or whatever. There is no sucession of reveals, or character turns, or changing of the status quo in any way. Infinity War for example had a great third act (and first act, and second act) because it kept the story moving and the character arcs moving and we were always learning something new or seeing the status quo change and the characters change. Wakanda was the weakest part precisely because after a certain point it was fighting with no other purpose.

    WW84 was much cleaner. She had a goal, she went after it, there was one clear objective and she tried to reason with Cheetah in stages, she realized there was no point and allowed the fight to end. Then she moved on from the physical embodiment of her vulnerabilities (Cheetah) to the emotional cause of pain for her which was Max Lord. She found the climactic threat and tried to reach him three times using different means, and then jumped to the solution. And the film paced the scene so that it wasn't a sudden change on the part of Diana after numerous attempts at trying the same thing.

    Compare this to Man of Steel, or Batman v Superman, or Justice League, or Suicide Squad, or Shazam, or Birds of Prey (where even after they fight the main bad guys, they still have a chase scene and one final confrontation). They just keep going and going for no reason. Spider-man Homecoming was the same thing. Endgame was probably the biggest offender. The whole third act was completely useless to the film other than finding a reason to kill off Tony Stark. I mean they all had already faced their biggest regrets and fixed the world, but then Thanos appears out of nowhere simply because he intercepted the head radio of Nebula in one scene and we proceed to every character fighting an army and literally trying to stop Thanos from changing the ending of the film. The story had already ended and Thanos was only there to change that ending. And the major accomplishment was stopping Thanos from changing the ending.
    Yes I know how action is suppose to work along side plot and character.

    Anyway if you think the fight scene with Cheetah and I mean the final one was good in anyway then, I think you may have seen a different movie. Because boy, was that boring and poorly executed. It doesn't matter what the meta commentary was if the battle itself was bad.
    Zaldrīzes Buzdari Iksos Daor

  2. #17
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Posts
    4,123

    Default

    I thought she did well in '84 but could have improved on. Wiig made an incredibly and sympathetic performance. I want her to team up with Circe (played by Charles Theron) in the sequel.spoilers:
    In my head canon she still has Diana's powers so she won't age, but it left so ambiguous. The Cheetah fight in the finale was a definitely let down, loved her fight with Diana in the White House.
    end of spoilers

  3. #18
    Astonishing Member Koriand'r's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Posts
    2,136

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    She's not subservient to him, but she gets her power from him and doesn't have a plot of her own.

    Which again, will be fine for this movie as long as she's a recurring foe going forward, which has a distinct possibility now.
    Cheetah didn't get her power from Max, she got it from the source the same way he did. And she totally did have a plot of her own it just wasn't the central one.

    She was far more powerful than she is in the comics. Wonder Woman was losing even with the golden armor until Cheetah got electrocuted.

  4. #19
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    1,371

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    Cheetah didn't get her power from Max, she got it from the source the same way he did. And she totally did have a plot of her own it just wasn't the central one.

    She was far more powerful than she is in the comics. Wonder Woman was losing even with the golden armor until Cheetah got electrocuted.
    True, on both accounts

  5. #20
    Extraordinary Member Robanker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    San Jose, CA
    Posts
    5,195

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    I'm not. I keep getting bored with the fight scenes in third acts of most of these films. Doctor Strange had a great third act despite being really weak the rest of the film. Civil War and Infinity War were great too. I enjoyed the visuals of Aquaman but it was still much longer than it should have been.

    But the big issue is never how long the action is, it's that there has to exist some interesting plot progression and character development alongside it. It's boring if its just minutes and minutes of the characters creating obstacles for each other and then one of them dies or gets seriously hurt, and then they find more obstacles and they fail, but they get back up again, and then something weird changes the dynamics but they go back to fighting or shooting, or racing, or whatever. There is no sucession of reveals, or character turns, or changing of the status quo in any way. Infinity War for example had a great third act (and first act, and second act) because it kept the story moving and the character arcs moving and we were always learning something new or seeing the status quo change and the characters change. Wakanda was the weakest part precisely because after a certain point it was fighting with no other purpose.

    WW84 was much cleaner. She had a goal, she went after it, there was one clear objective and she tried to reason with Cheetah in stages, she realized there was no point and allowed the fight to end. Then she moved on from the physical embodiment of her vulnerabilities (Cheetah) to the emotional cause of pain for her which was Max Lord. She found the climactic threat and tried to reach him three times using different means, and then jumped to the solution. And the film paced the scene so that it wasn't a sudden change on the part of Diana after numerous attempts at trying the same thing.

    Compare this to Man of Steel, or Batman v Superman, or Justice League, or Suicide Squad, or Shazam, or Birds of Prey (where even after they fight the main bad guys, they still have a chase scene and one final confrontation). They just keep going and going for no reason. Spider-man Homecoming was the same thing. Endgame was probably the biggest offender. The whole third act was completely useless to the film other than finding a reason to kill off Tony Stark. I mean they all had already faced their biggest regrets and fixed the world, but then Thanos appears out of nowhere simply because he intercepted the head radio of Nebula in one scene and we proceed to every character fighting an army and literally trying to stop Thanos from changing the ending of the film. The story had already ended and Thanos was only there to change that ending. And the major accomplishment was stopping Thanos from changing the ending.
    Maxwell! I've come to bargain!

    I enjoyed that she actually resolved the final conflict with Maxwell Lord using her strength of character and bringing about some measure of redemption for the guy. It felt way more in line with Wonder Woman's character than some big CGI blender.

  6. #21
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    1,371

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Maxwell! I've come to bargain!

    I enjoyed that she actually resolved the final conflict with Maxwell Lord using her strength of character and bringing about some measure of redemption for the guy. It felt way more in line with Wonder Woman's character than some big CGI blender.
    This film felt even more like a Wonder Woman film than the first one in the best of ways, although I really liked the first one and I did think it was better written than this one.

  7. #22
    Extraordinary Member Robanker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    San Jose, CA
    Posts
    5,195

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    This film felt even more like a Wonder Woman film than the first one in the best of ways, although I really liked the first one and I did think it was better written than this one.
    The first movie is really great until the third act. I still love that movie, warts and all, but there's no doubt in my mind that it features a less complete Diana. It's still excellent when it sings, and both of them are pure gold whenever Diana and Steve share a frame. Each has their strengths and weaknesses, but if I was asked "which movie has the most accurate interpretation of Wonder Woman on film," WW84 gets my vote. It stays truer to her character over the course of her history and gets away from some of the obsessions of modern writers that plague her.

    Bruce has Batgod, Clark has Hope^TM and Diana has Warrior Woman. Each of them is getting flanderized, for lack of a better term, and distilled into a simplified, shallower version of themselves. And it sucks. WW84 felt like course correction in that respect.

  8. #23
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    1,371

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    The first movie is really great until the third act. I still love that movie, warts and all, but there's no doubt in my mind that it features a less complete Diana. It's still excellent when it sings, and both of them are pure gold whenever Diana and Steve share a frame. Each has their strengths and weaknesses, but if I was asked "which movie has the most accurate interpretation of Wonder Woman on film," WW84 gets my vote. It stays truer to her character over the course of her history and gets away from some of the obsessions of modern writers that plague her.

    Bruce has Batgod, Clark has Hope^TM and Diana has Warrior Woman. Each of them is getting flanderized, for lack of a better term, and distilled into a simplified, shallower version of themselves. And it sucks. WW84 felt like course correction in that respect.
    Haha. I agree with everything you've said in this thread

  9. #24
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    372

    Default

    I have better hopes of Cheetah being done right in animation than any live adaption right now if PJ keeps heading with this version of WW.
    Last edited by Titan Theo; 12-28-2020 at 11:46 PM.

  10. #25
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    1,371

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Titan Theo View Post
    WW 1 action scenes were good, but NOT exceptional. I honestly don't think you need a Patty Jenkins to deliver that choreography, although I do credit her for the pacing of the fight scenes, and again, to those who think WW used her lasso well in both movies, I really have to disagree. It was almost comical to me, even worse in the 2nd movie. The amazons doing some lasso tricks on the beginning of the 2nd movie showed a lot more that WW's use in the entire movie, and the over glowing noodle is way OTT. She does not even hold the base of the lasso properly, and not stylish at all.

    As for the Cheetah action scene, nothing unique either except for her running. Give this movie to DC animation choreographers and you'll see a REAL choreography fight.
    This is a magic lasso in a super hero film. It should have all the use it had in this film. The sole exception being what it did during the flight sequence.

    I have no idea what you meant by "The amazons doing some lasso tricks on the beginning of the 2nd movie showed a lot more that WW's use in the entire movie". It's not even debateable that Diana showed off it's variety and usefullness a lot more.
    Last edited by Alpha; 12-28-2020 at 11:49 PM.

  11. #26
    Original CBR member Jabare's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    7,002

    Default

    Cheetah wrecked Wonder Woman in their first fight.

    Then she lost in the third act as we all knew she would. That fight was pretty par for the course. I'm not sure what you expected. Movies don't need to adhere to battle board rules.




    Look how Cheetah's handled in animation. I'd say the fight is pretty par for the course of how DC usually treats modern Cheetah.


    I don't know if people were expecting some Wonder Woman Bloodlines Cheetah or Geoff Johns New 52 Justice League version of Cheetah, but we got a decent fight. Cheetah's the only one who presents a real physical threat to Diana the entire film. I don't care if the bullets from the guards hurt. Those cannon fodder guys weren't threat to Diana, even while depowered.

    And for me, I could tolerate that CGI better than the Ares fight in the first film, where he goes Magneto and is flinging CGI scrap left and right.
    The J-man

  12. #27
    Extraordinary Member Robanker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    San Jose, CA
    Posts
    5,195

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jabare View Post
    Cheetah wrecked Wonder Woman in their first fight.

    Then she lost in the third act as we all knew she would. That fight was pretty par for the course. I'm not sure what you expected. Movies don't need to adhere to battle board rules.




    Look how Cheetah's handled in animation. I'd say the fight is pretty par for the course of how DC usually treats modern Cheetah.


    I don't know if people were expecting some Wonder Woman Bloodlines Cheetah or Geoff Johns New 52 Justice League version of Cheetah, but we got a decent fight. Cheetah's the only one who presents a real physical threat to Diana the entire film. I don't care if the bullets from the guards hurt. Those cannon fodder guys weren't threat to Diana, even while depowered.

    And for me, I could tolerate that CGI better than the Ares fight in the first film, where he goes Magneto and is flinging CGI scrap left and right.
    I mean, you're right insofar as Cheetah was the only one who could ever believably threaten Diana, but her status as midboss effectively promised she wouldn't. I think that as a character in WW84, Barbara Minerva's motivation made sense and she basically played her part.

    But as an adaption of Cheetah? Not great. This is Diana's biggest threat alongside Circe and Ares, and most peg her as Diana's biggest bad. She just shouldn't have been the penultimate conflict (to be fair, she was the last actual fight) and it didn't really meet the scale one would expect from either-- but it was never going to unless she was the actual antagonist because they couldn't let her overshadow the actual antagonist. It was what it was. Her shredding the Golden Eagle armor's wings against a fully powered Diana did at least show she wasn't to be trifled with, which considering this Cheetah has no combat skill or training, isn't a bad showing within the world the movie sets up.

    If she didn't renounce her initial wish on the stone (as we only saw her and Diana do so, the latter having renounced her wish) she may still be immortal. Perhaps she'll be the proper villain of Wonder Woman 3 and it won't be Circe/Giganta as I hope. Who knows?

  13. #28
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    1,371

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jabare View Post
    Cheetah wrecked Wonder Woman in their first fight.

    Then she lost in the third act as we all knew she would. That fight was pretty par for the course. I'm not sure what you expected. Movies don't need to adhere to battle board rules.




    Look how Cheetah's handled in animation. I'd say the fight is pretty par for the course of how DC usually treats modern Cheetah.


    I don't know if people were expecting some Wonder Woman Bloodlines Cheetah or Geoff Johns New 52 Justice League version of Cheetah, but we got a decent fight. Cheetah's the only one who presents a real physical threat to Diana the entire film. I don't care if the bullets from the guards hurt. Those cannon fodder guys weren't threat to Diana, even while depowered.

    And for me, I could tolerate that CGI better than the Ares fight in the first film, where he goes Magneto and is flinging CGI scrap left and right.
    Good argument

  14. #29
    Fantastic Member mystical41's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Posts
    459

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    Cheetah didn't get her power from Max, she got it from the source the same way he did. And she totally did have a plot of her own it just wasn't the central one.

    She was far more powerful than she is in the comics. Wonder Woman was losing even with the golden armor until Cheetah got electrocuted.
    I'm sorry but that is not true. WW was on deffensive mode the whole time and still wasable to restrain her. And going down by getting electrocuted is anything but powerful.

  15. #30
    Fantastic Member mystical41's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Posts
    459

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    Good argument
    Being electrocuted is not the way a real powerhouse should go down. She showed nothing impresive in terms of speed and strength and her durability was shown as a joke.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •