It just hit me that Mayfeld had better character development than Finn?

[Xero Kaiser]

Yeah, Mayfield really is a better version of Finn.

I had high hopes for Finn going into TFA and while he was still my favorite of the new protagonists, it was all downhill for him after the janitor joke. TLJ completely and utterly wasted him and by the time TROS tried to give him a little dignity back, it was way too late.

[inisideguy]

I think like a lot of the characters for whatever reason they just didn't know what to do with him after the first film. But I think thats just indicative of the sequels as a whole. The people behind the trilogy were not sure what to exactly do with anyone after the first film. And I am not really clear why.

[godisawesome]

I think like a lot of the characters for whatever reason they just didn't know what to do with him after the first film. But I think thats just indicative of the sequels as a whole. The people behind the trilogy were not sure what to exactly do with anyone after the first film. And I am not really clear why.

It’s not just that they didn’t plan things out; it’s that at some point, Abrams and Johnson wound up with totally different objectives and priorities.

Abrams was laser-focused on telling a story focusing on the new female lead and her male co-lead, and the male co-lead developed into Finn at some point, instead of the Adam Driver-played son of Han Solo that LFL apparently convinced themselves would be the key to the new story.

Johnson was laser focused on telling a story that acted as an epilogue to Luke’s story, had only a cursory and obligatory view of the new female lead at best, and either was himself obsessed with Kylo or was encouraged to “course correct” to Kylo for the male lead by LFL.

You can tell that Kylo is being (ironically) torn apart by competing viewpoints: one side views him as some complex and deep character the ST could found itself around even though he was never supposed to be the main character, and the other (correctly) notes that doing so is highly problematic and dangerous.

You can tell Rey is suffering severe apathy and disinterest primarily found in TLJ, that interrupts and kills what momentum she had going from TFA, and that she’s clearly prioritized behind Kylo by LFL to her and the story’s detriment, losing the valuable antagonism she had with Kylo from TFA in exchange for a bullshit abusive relationship with Kylo for shallow people.

But you can tell there was something more malignant and actively spiteful towards Finn as a character in comparison, because a lot of TLJ seems dedicated to trying to tear down and paper over what had worked well with him before; unlike Rey suffering from simple negligence and apathy, there seemed to be a genuine attempt to label Finn’s attachment to Rey and heroic journey in TFA as being bad somehow.

I don’t think Finn’s demotion was primarily based in racism - it’s more likely than not that LFL was simply insecure over him outshining Kylo - but I think *some* racism wound up playing a part in it at points.

[inisideguy]

It’s not just that they didn’t plan things out; it’s that at some point, Abrams and Johnson wound up with totally different objectives and priorities.

Abrams was laser-focused on telling a story focusing on the new female lead and her male co-lead, and the male co-lead developed into Finn at some point, instead of the Adam Driver-played son of Han Solo that LFL apparently convinced themselves would be the key to the new story.

Johnson was laser focused on telling a story that acted as an epilogue to Luke’s story, had only a cursory and obligatory view of the new female lead at best, and either was himself obsessed with Kylo or was encouraged to “course correct” to Kylo for the male lead by LFL.

You can tell that Kylo is being (ironically) torn apart by competing viewpoints: one side views him as some complex and deep character the ST could found itself around even though he was never supposed to be the main character, and the other (correctly) notes that doing so is highly problematic and dangerous.

You can tell Rey is suffering severe apathy and disinterest primarily found in TLJ, that interrupts and kills what momentum she had going from TFA, and that she’s clearly prioritized behind Kylo by LFL to her and the story’s detriment, losing the valuable antagonism she had with Kylo from TFA in exchange for a bullshit abusive relationship with Kylo for shallow people.

But you can tell there was something more malignant and actively spiteful towards Finn as a character in comparison, because a lot of TLJ seems dedicated to trying to tear down and paper over what had worked well with him before; unlike Rey suffering from simple negligence and apathy, there seemed to be a genuine attempt to label Finn’s attachment to Rey and heroic journey in TFA as being bad somehow.

I don’t think Finn’s demotion was primarily based in racism - it’s more likely than not that LFL was simply insecure over him outshining Kylo - but I think *some* racism wound up playing a part in it at points.

Just a weird, weird series of films. I mean George didn't even have much of a plan while making a New Hope and he managed to string the story together. And as goofy as the prequels were he had a beginning and end mapped out for the story. With the Sequels they had all the advantages to learn from other franchises, knew this was going to be big but it didn't seem like they had a plan for anything or anybody.

[Username taken]

I think like a lot of the characters for whatever reason they just didn't know what to do with him after the first film. But I think thats just indicative of the sequels as a whole. The people behind the trilogy were not sure what to exactly do with anyone after the first film. And I am not really clear why.

Exactly this.

When looking back at the sequel trilogy, you wonder what exactly Lucasfilm was thinking because quite clearly they only had plans for Rey.

And even at that, they didn’t have any clear path laid out for her...the protagonist of the new series.

[godisawesome]

Exactly this.

When looking back at the sequel trilogy, you wonder what exactly Lucasfilm was thinking because quite clearly they only had plans for Rey.

And even at that, they didn’t have any clear path laid out for her...the protagonist of the new series.

I’d actually argue they didn’t even really have plans for Rey; most reports say that it was Kylo they expected to take off, Adam Driver they tried to secure early on, Kylo merchandise they over-invested in, and it’s clear that Kylo/Ben was their main focus leading up to TROS, since they traded away his villain role for an excuse to give him an enemy to join with Rey against, and Ben’s redemption they regarded as so natural that they out Charles Soule on white-washing duty with an entire miniseries when TROS was released.

Now... that’s Disney-era LFL I’m referring to there as a conglomerate, and I’m excluding Lucas from this; if we bring him in, than we’ve got a weirder thing going on, because he, Arndt, and Abrams were primarily interested in the female protagonist, before Abrams introduced the mystery box about her heritage, which may very well mark the moment that larger company started fixating on Kylo instead, even after Abrams had made Kylo mostly just the Jedi Killer villain instead of the co-lead.

In general, I think that if there’s a character to “blame” for the ST’s failure, it’s Kylo/Ben becoming a clear Creator’s Pet, with no one paying attention to what actual strengths the cast of characters and actors had outside of Adam Driver (and just Driver; I don’t think they even really judged Kylo’s value correctly.)

[Anthony W]

Exactly this.

When looking back at the sequel trilogy, you wonder what exactly Lucasfilm was thinking because quite clearly they only had plans for Rey.

And even at that, they didn’t have any clear path laid out for her...the protagonist of the new series.

They had a plan for her.

DISNEY'S PLAN FOR REY: STAR WARS+DISNEY PRINCESS=PROFIT

Of course the execution was harder than it seemed

[godisawesome]

They had a plan for her.

DISNEY'S PLAN FOR REY: STAR WARS+DISNEY PRINCESS=PROFIT

Of course the execution was harder than it seemed

Johnson must have lost the memo for his film.

[tib2d2]

Both worked for the Empire, but Mayfeld received more character development in two episodes of a TV show than Finn over the course of three movies.

Man, I didn't even think about this but you're totally right. IN FACT, even in TFA, when Finn says "you haven't seen the things I've seen", I remember thinking "well tell us!". All we saw was Finn being upset that a fellow Stormtrooper near him died, that can't be what he was referring to when he was talking to Maz.

[Jackalope89]

Man, I didn't even think about this but you're totally right. IN FACT, even in TFA, when Finn says "you haven't seen the things I've seen", I remember thinking "well tell us!". All we saw was Finn being upset that a fellow Stormtrooper near him died, that can't be what he was referring to when he was talking to Maz.

He detailed being kidnapped at a young age and going through training. Basic combat, at the very least. And seemingly deemed unfit for combat (hence role as janitor). Kind of makes you wonder why he was suddenly stuck into a combat unit in TFA.

Honestly, I was looking forward to seeing how Finn and Rey would do in TST from the first promos. Rey magically knowing so much about everything aside, they did have a good dynamic in the first film. And actually seeing one of the faces behind the Stormtrooper armor, making it human, was interesting. And then it was all tossed out, and Luke...

Okay. Yeah.

[godisawesome]

He detailed being kidnapped at a young age and going through training. Basic combat, at the very least. And seemingly deemed unfit for combat (hence role as janitor). Kind of makes you wonder why he was suddenly stuck into a combat unit in TFA.

Honestly, I was looking forward to seeing how Finn and Rey would do in TST from the first promos. Rey magically knowing so much about everything aside, they did have a good dynamic in the first film. And actually seeing one of the faces behind the Stormtrooper armor, making it human, was interesting. And then it was all tossed out, and Luke...

Okay. Yeah.

Finn clearly does detail that his life has been horrible, and according to Greg Rucka’s Before the Awakening, he’d participated in at least one military operation before TFA, but hadn’t actually shot at anyone yet - that trooper he stopped to help, Slip, actually covered for him by shooting a civilian when Finn hesitated.

And I’d argue the meat of that trauma and drama is still in TFA, though it’s got a different tone than Mayfeld in some ways - Mayfeld basically saw combat several times before the atrocity that triggered his desertion, while Finn’s first experiences immediately exposed him to those atrocities. The output is different in that Mayfeld clearly tries to justify his previous combat role in his head through moral relativity, while Finn doesn’t need to do that because his first blooding is on First Order personnel.

TFA is actually still a very good Finn film - it’s just that TLJ attacked the character and events there because Finn had too good chemistry with Rey and probably would have continued to overshadow Kylo as a character (though probably not a product).

[Sacred Knight]

Always felt this was the biggest reason good-natured Star Wars fans didn't like Rose. She was pretty much designed to halt Finn's characterization and importance to the lore. Her purpose is to get him out of the way. There's an understandable resentment there created in the usage, having nothing to do with other, much more ill-intentioned attacks.

[ChrisIII]

He detailed being kidnapped at a young age and going through training. Basic combat, at the very least. And seemingly deemed unfit for combat (hence role as janitor). Kind of makes you wonder why he was suddenly stuck into a combat unit in TFA.

Honestly, I was looking forward to seeing how Finn and Rey would do in TST from the first promos. Rey magically knowing so much about everything aside, they did have a good dynamic in the first film. And actually seeing one of the faces behind the Stormtrooper armor, making it human, was interesting. And then it was all tossed out, and Luke...

Okay. Yeah.

Finn did see the village mowed down by his fellow Stormtroopers except for him, and presumably what Starkiller was capable of, although it's unclear if it was test-fired elsewhere before Hosnian (Like the Death Star's first fully powered use was on Alderaan, but Rogue One did show it with a smaller but still devastating impact on Jedah and Scarif)

[godisawesome]

Always felt this was the biggest reason good-natured Star Wars fans didn't like Rose. She was pretty much designed to halt Finn's characterization and importance to the lore. Her purpose is to get him out of the way. There's an understandable resentment there created in the usage, having nothing to do with other, much more ill-intentioned attacks.

The way I see it, there’s a pretty clear number of red flags that expose when someone is attacking Rose for stupid reasons that are similar to the red flags when someone attacks Finn in bad faith as well... but Finn also has a contrast between his first appearance and the other films that pretty strikingly delineates where you can find fans of Finn from TFA disgusted with his treatment in TLJ/TROS.

Rose only has her appearances in TLJ and TROS, and sadly, I don’t think TLJ really showed true ambition with the character, and definitely seemed to try and use her to demote Finn and break them apart. Which is a shame, really, because KMT and Boyega had great chemistry in their introduction scene, and easily could have used the conflict idea Johnson had originally where Finn held Paige as she died, and thus would have baggage.

Boyega *and* KMT deserved better than TLJ.

Finn did see the village mowed down by his fellow Stormtroopers except for him, and presumably what Starkiller was capable of, although it's unclear if it was test-fired elsewhere before Hosnian (Like the Death Star's first fully powered use was on Alderaan, but Rogue One did show it with a smaller but still devastating impact on Jedah and Scarif)

That first scene in TFA delivered more drama for Finn than all of TLJ, and definitely deserves comparison to Mayfeld’s PTSD.

[ChrisIII]

I think the novel at least implies that Finn was so disturbed and shocked that he threw up in his helmet (thus explaining part of why he removed it).