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  1. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    Which is stupid; they should care whether the book is not just "fine" or selling well: they need to care if it's getting acclaim, being loved, whatever
    Marvel cares that the book is selling well enough to make money against what it's paying the creators, and then beyond that caring that books don't attract negative mainstream media attention (I don't mean a poorly written story here, I mean inadvertent racism or other things that would lead to undue public attention they don't want). While that's not focused on acclaim, that unfortunately is how business operates (you have to make money).
    Last edited by Jness; 01-02-2021 at 08:07 PM.
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  2. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jness View Post
    Marvel cares that the book is selling well enough to make money against what it's paying the creators, and then beyond that caring that books don't attract negative mainstream media attention (I don't mean a poorly written story here, I mean inadvertent racism or other things that would lead to undue public attention they don't want). While that's not focused on acclaim, that unfortunately is how business operates (you have to make money).
    I agree to a point. They certainly do not want racism etc, but Marvel let OMD and the BND aftermath remain for 13 years and counting, despite nearly universal hate. Not to mention not only letting Slott remain on the book for a decade (I jumped off before that), but they let him do the cartoon ( which is why I will not watch a second of it). As for the bottom line although easily identifiable mistakes of the past happened ( see the very concept of Sins Past as just one example), it seems less and less important today. For example: Almost anyone could tell Birds Of Prey ( Harley Quinn) or the Kristen Stewart Charlies Angels would fail. Warner Bros ( Quinn) and Sony ( Angels) had to have known they are not getting many guys into the theatres for those films, but they green lit them anyway, and they failed as expected.
    Last edited by NC_Yankee; 01-03-2021 at 01:47 AM.

  3. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    So if you're saying Spencer is the reason for the decompression, then why is Marvel not reigning him in and asking him to pack more content into these issues? Why are they just letting him get away with all this? They're enabling just as much as Spencer is doing it.

    We've literally just "ended" a story that started over 60 issues and two years ago, pandemic aside. This current arc has been going non-stop for over eleven issues (sixteen if you count .LR). That would be fine if the payoff was impressive, but it wasn't. So now, not only was there no payoff and no ending, but we're also being dragged for another six issues of this same story (the next arc is called "Last Remains: Post-Mortem"). Enough is enough.

    It's time to acknowledge that this book has serious problems that Marvel will have to consider.
    Maybe because the book sells very well, meaning that readers enjoy it as it is, and that a few dozens of vocal readers in forums here and there on the internet are not as significant as they think.

  4. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterParked View Post
    Maybe because the book sells very well, meaning that readers enjoy it as it is, and that a few dozens of vocal readers in forums here and there on the internet are not as significant as they think.
    I certainly do not believe my opinion is that important ( I have stated as such before). So here is the thing. I do not have the answer to this, so I will ask the question? What are the sales of ASM year 3 under Spencer compared to year 3 under Slott?

  5. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by NC_Yankee View Post
    I certainly do not believe my opinion is that important ( I have stated as such before). So here is the thing. I do not have the answer to this, so I will ask the question? What are the sales of ASM year 3 under Spencer compared to year 3 under Slott?
    This is a particularly hard question because normal sales data during COVID has been a bit of a mess. One also has to account for things like anniversary issues, big arcs, etc., when comparing sales*. Comichron has estimated data ranges only for post-March titles (post-pandemic start), so ASM 48 (Spencer) sold between 75-90K. The best comparison** for Slott's run, IMO, would be ASM 695 (his 48th issue of Big Time, more or less), which sold 58K copies. 48 was part of Sins Rising, right before the Norman special, 49/850 and 50. ASM 695 was part of the Hobgoblin arc right before Dying Wish, so it was not nearly as tied into the upcoming anniversary, but as I said, comparisons are hard. We could look more broadly across the years if that was super important, but I think the sales will be broadly consistent with the idea stated earlier that Slott's highs were higher but lows were lower

    *Standard comment that sales data is not indicative of quality, comparing sales across many years w/o a method to correct for sales trends is folly, etc., etc.

    **The first part of Dying Wish jumps to 81K if you think it's important to compare issues 2 years in that are part of the anniversary story arc. If it matters, ASM 700 (end of Dying Wish, big status change) was 200K and the estimate for 49/850 was 155-170K.
    Blue text denotes sarcasm

  6. #201
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    Well it's nice to know Goblin brought his 'A' game to this fight and MJ will most likely be alright after last remains

    https://www.cbr.com/spider-man-green...kin-bomb-stun/

  7. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by NC_Yankee View Post
    I certainly do not believe my opinion is that important ( I have stated as such before). So here is the thing. I do not have the answer to this, so I will ask the question? What are the sales of ASM year 3 under Spencer compared to year 3 under Slott?
    Comicchron is a decent resource with archives on sales estimates.

    https://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales.html

    It is messy for a lot of reasons. The estimates are for the direct market, while revenue also comes from other sources (TPBs, Marvel unlimited subscriptions, digital sales.)

    My impression is that Marvel should be happy with Slott and Spencer from a sales perspective.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  8. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    Comicchron is a decent resource with archives on sales estimates.

    https://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales.html

    It is messy for a lot of reasons. The estimates are for the direct market, while revenue also comes from other sources (TPBs, Marvel unlimited subscriptions, digital sales.)

    My impression is that Marvel should be happy with Slott and Spencer from a sales perspective.
    Thank you Mets for the information and the link.

  9. #204
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    I'm a bit late, but there's a few things I want to say regardless.

    1) AS is my nature, I'm going to attack anything that tries to make that Abomination from 2004 work, and Harry's saying "Gwen went to Europe" is exactly the problem. She didn't go to Europe around ASM 40. She went to Europe almost five years later in the 90s, after her Father died. And she didn't go to "europe", she went to Great Britain, becuase she had family that lived in London. There's a whole issue where Spider-Man goes to London with Robbie to meet her. This has always been the giant MACK Truck sized plot hole with JR's attempt to make Sins Past work, and it will remain that way forever. Because it doesn't work. Sins Past should only be referenced to decanonize it and offer an alternative explanation.

    2) So this whole thing felt like a waste of time. 6 issues plus a bunch of sidestories feels like we're coming to a climax...but we weren't. This is just another step. It's been years, Spencer. I want some answers. Especially since at this point you've revealed so much that we know this is about OMD. Dragging your heels for another two years is just going to annoy me. In the end this storyline only really did two things. One, it revealed that, despite what Quesada said in that dumpster fire that is OMIT, Mary Jane absolutely remembers the deal. This is the biggest thing. Kind of recontextualizes almost everything that she's done in the last decade. Two, we know Kindred is Harry, which people theorized but is now "confirmed".

    3) Also, this is a Spider-Man book, no? I can't say I'm that fond of Spider-Man stories where he can do nothing. Like he doesn't have to win on his own, but the way these "fights" have gone is problematic to say the least.

    Quote Originally Posted by NC_Yankee View Post
    You are 100% correct. Look at MCU movies where Peter was called a kid and was rebooted back to High School. Look at the Clone Saga and OMD/BND as other examples. Speaking of Clone Saga and OMD/BND, why did those stories happen? Marvel was afraid of an adult Peter an the possible loss of income. Believe it or not I was more sympathetic to that argument when they occurred then today. Why? Miles. If readers want a teenage Spider-Man they have Miles. Into The Spider Verse was an Oscar winner. People will buy Miles. 2: In sales the customer is always right. Why? You need them to buy your product.OMD is despised by the overwhelming majority of people who care about it, so instead of doing what the readership wants they choose to play games. Is it like the snarky comments by Slott? No but it is still a big middle finger to those who hate OMD. They even referenced Clone Saga in Gwen’s comic and hinted at Sins Past with Norman’s comments about Gwen. What are they trying to prove? I wish I knew besides being stubborn and refusing to admit those stories suck and need to be dead and buried, never to return.
    I disagree they need to be buried. They need to be obliterated. So they CAN'T return. Because they've been exposed as lies.

  10. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenon View Post
    I'm a bit late, but there's a few things I want to say regardless.

    1) AS is my nature, I'm going to attack anything that tries to make that Abomination from 2004 work, and Harry's saying "Gwen went to Europe" is exactly the problem. She didn't go to Europe around ASM 40. She went to Europe almost five years later in the 90s, after her Father died. And she didn't go to "europe", she went to Great Britain, becuase she had family that lived in London. There's a whole issue where Spider-Man goes to London with Robbie to meet her. This has always been the giant MACK Truck sized plot hole with JR's attempt to make Sins Past work, and it will remain that way forever. Because it doesn't work. Sins Past should only be referenced to decanonize it and offer an alternative explanation.

    2) So this whole thing felt like a waste of time. 6 issues plus a bunch of sidestories feels like we're coming to a climax...but we weren't. This is just another step. It's been years, Spencer. I want some answers. Especially since at this point you've revealed so much that we know this is about OMD. Dragging your heels for another two years is just going to annoy me. In the end this storyline only really did two things. One, it revealed that, despite what Quesada said in that dumpster fire that is OMIT, Mary Jane absolutely remembers the deal. This is the biggest thing. Kind of recontextualizes almost everything that she's done in the last decade. Two, we know Kindred is Harry, which people theorized but is now "confirmed".

    3) Also, this is a Spider-Man book, no? I can't say I'm that fond of Spider-Man stories where he can do nothing. Like he doesn't have to win on his own, but the way these "fights" have gone is problematic to say the least.



    I disagree they need to be buried. They need to be obliterated. So they CAN'T return. Because they've been exposed as lies.
    I certainly agree with you. There are plenty of great stories that have not been used in years. The Hooky story and Marandi for example. I would rather see her return then reference awful stories like Sins Past or The Other with the Totem. I also do not see the point in basically reprinting BND if you are not going to get rid of it.
    Last edited by NC_Yankee; 01-12-2021 at 03:56 PM.

  11. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by NC_Yankee View Post
    I also do not see the point in basically reprinting BND if you are not going to get rid of it.
    I don't understand this part. Why would they reprint it if they were just going to get rid of it?

    It's not meant to be a refresher for Last Remains story arc. They reprinted it because they wanted to make money off of JMS and Slott's runs.

  12. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    I don't understand this part. Why would they reprint it if they were just going to get rid of it?

    It's not meant to be a refresher for Last Remains story arc. They reprinted it because they wanted to make money off of JMS and Slott's runs.
    It is not even that. It is Marvel thinking they are masterminds and everyone else are morons. They are even “Flipping The Bird” to readers. In case you think I am wrong, please tell me why the F that Clone Saga is returning in Miles book ( the Mephisto deal part 2 is bad enough).

  13. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by NC_Yankee View Post
    It is not even that. It is Marvel thinking they are masterminds and everyone else are morons. They are even “Flipping The Bird” to readers. In case you think I am wrong, please tell me why the F that Clone Saga is returning in Miles book ( the Mephisto deal part 2 is bad enough).
    Because the IP/name sells. There are enough people willing to buy the book just to find out WTF is going on. Even with people that despised the Clone Saga.

  14. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    Because the IP/name sells. There are enough people willing to buy the book just to find out WTF is going on. Even with people that despised the Clone Saga.
    The context of the clone saga is also different.

    It was more than twenty years ago.

    For a new reader, it could be weird comics they read over a weekend on Marvel Unlimited. It's kinda like Grant Morrison's Batman referencing the silver age. It's a part of the character's history.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

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