Amazing Spider-Man 55 (Spoilers)

[RyanParkerMan]

Yeah, I feel you on a lot of what you say here, old friend. The excess padding of this story, and the 2 1/2 years of teasing, deserves a much bigger payoff----but, to be fair, I think that is coming in the next 2 issues. This really wasn't the finale----the solicits were misleading: next week's ASM #56 is extra pages and, just judging by the preview that just came out, there is a lot more to be told. Hang in there for another issue or two if you can.....it may get a bit better for you.

I miss you too Rob! Good to connect again. I miss Kevin too.

I'm sure I'll pick up the next 2 issues but man, I feel I've given this run 55 issues, and this story 6 or 7. I'm not sure I agree that we're going to get something significant in the next 2 issues. Last Remains really shocked me. It's trite to come on here and talk about decompression, but Jesus, nothing happened for 7 issues. I think my biggest issue is, Spencer and company took on holy ground by incorporating Stan's run, JMDs run, JMS' run, and unholy ground in OMD. To not pay that off, in any significant way, is really messed up. Especially after 55 issues.

[oldschool]

I miss you too Rob! Good to connect again. I miss Kevin too.

I'm sure I'll pick up the next 2 issues but man, I feel I've given this run 55 issues, and this story 6 or 7. I'm not sure I agree that we're going to get something significant in the next 2 issues. Last Remains really shocked me. It's trite to come on here and talk about decompression, but Jesus, nothing happened for 7 issues. I think my biggest issue is, Spencer and company took on holy ground by incorporating Stan's run, JMDs run, JMS' run, and unholy ground in OMD. To not pay that off, in any significant way, is really messed up. Especially after 55 issues.

Yup....you make solid points. I really dug Spencer's start on the title and then it drifted to "kinda eh" for me until "Hunted" which I really enjoyed. Then some more "eh" along with a downright bad arc (the 2099 one) and the buidup to Kindred really picked up steam and I was psyched but this has been torturously slow.....I think we will get some more satisfaction with payoff in next 2 issues but it's a bit late in the game to get the story we wanted I think.

[Huntsman Spider]

Considering Revolutionary_Jack himself made the point some years ago about how Peter concealing Norman Osborn's secret identity as the Green Goblin (to protect his own secret identity as Spider-Man) in the first place enabled Osborn to ultimately kill Gwen Stacy and cause so much more suffering afterwards, it's interesting to see this finally addressed on-page, in-canon. That said, Life Story posited that even if Peter had done the right thing and turned Osborn in, albeit anonymously, Osborn would know who was responsible and spend the rest of his life --- even from prison --- plotting and exacting revenge, which would have still led to Gwen's death. In a nutshell, Harry wants to pin all the blame for how screwed up everything and everyone in his life became on Peter, but that's ignoring that as much as Peter can be (arguably) rightfully condemned for prioritizing his secrets above the safety of his friends and family and other loved ones, Norman Osborn was a grown man who made his own choices long ago when it came to how he treated the people in his life and reacted to the world around him, and frankly, so was Harry.

[Frontier]

The real problem with comics, with the fans, and with the debates on 'Spider-Man is about youth' is that Spider-Man is a property Marvel wants to make money with, and draw value from. It's not about treating Peter Parker as a character in a story but as a corporate brand.

If Spider-Man was public domain, then that all goes away. He can become like Robin Hood, like Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn, like Captain Ahab, or any other fairy tale. Spider-Man becomes a bedtime story you tell your kids, and the Spider-Man story you make up for your kid or nephew gets to be as canon as anything else. I can tell my nephew a variation of a fairy tale like Aladdin where I change up the ending and introduce new adventures and stuff, and it would be canon.

Some would argue about copyright and creators but how? Spider-Man was created by Stan Lee and Steve Ditko, both are dead. Both creators had a vision and perspective about the character and Marvel editorial have repeatedly proven that they are not gonna be beholden to their vision and wishes for the character...so if Marvel isn't being faithful to Lee and Ditko who made it clear in their comics and their public observations many times over the decades that they saw the character as one who will grow old...then they don't have real justification to act as custodians for the character because they are in fact changing and altering and making Spider-Man vastly different from how he first started out. Marvel is not being faithful to the intentions of the creators the way that for instance, the Tolkien Estate under Christopher Tolkien has acted many times in trying to be faithful to the original vision of his father's work. In the latter case, you can make a case for copyright law to protect an IP but not in the case of Marvel. The whole "Spider-Man is about youth" thing that was cooked up by Bill Jemas and Joe Quesada and passed downwards via Brevoort and that has infected and contaminated the Spider-Man stories for the last 2 decades and in adaptations.

Now you can argue that Spider-Man writers and creators who work on the title deserve remuneration and value but again they aren't getting paid enough right now, and they are not willing to unionize. Alan Moore when he worked on public domain characters like League of Extraordinary Gentlemen earned more than he would with licensed titles. If Spider-Man was PD, then any writer on any title who writes a good take on Spider-Man and so on gets to keep more of his fair share and their art than if it were otherwise.

To be honest I'm not seeing enough of a difference to where there's an upside compared to what we have now. Public domain or otherwise people are always going to have their take on Spider-Man.

[WebSlingWonder]

To be honest I'm not seeing enough of a difference to where there's an upside compared to what we have now. Public domain or otherwise people are always going to have their take on Spider-Man.

But that's the problem: "their own take" has disrespected Lee, Ditko and Romita's for years...decades even. And Marvel has not only enabled it; they've mandated it. It's time to face facts and realize that the so-called "powers that be" have shirked their responsibility.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Marvel Comics needs to pay their editors, writers, artists, staff, more to get better talent

I don't think talent is an issue. There are excellent writers, artists, letterers, colorists, inkers at Marvel (granted the editors are weak and they could use some changes there) and heck, even DC for that matter.

...and Disney should make that investment,

As bad and storied the treatment of talent by Marvel and DC is, it is Nothing and I mean NOTHING compared to how Disney treats and abuses comics creators who work on licensed titles like Donald Duck and others. They denied credit to Carl Barks in the '50s and they treat Don Rosa like sh-t, the guy who doesn't have insurance and has to work two jobs all the while his comics about duck billionaire get harvested for a hit kid's show or get used as inspiration for Nolan's Inception.

So don't go kowtowing to Disney about this. They are worse, substantially so. In fact they were the ones who muscled and changed the public domain laws into what it has become, retarding progress in the process. . Marvel never screwed over anyone, not Ditko, not Lee, not Starlin, not Wolfman, the way Disney has done to its licensed staff. And don't get me started on Walt Disney and how he saw animators who did the hard work on his cartoons (Disney never animated a damn frame of any of his major works, nor wrote the scripts, nor did the music, nor nothing) get unionized and promptly fired and muscled them out. Or that his company does actual propaganda videos glorifying their founder (Saving Mr. Banks).

So why not invest in the comics division of the company?

Why invest when people do it for free? There are only a few big licensed characters at Marvel and many aspiring writers and others doing comics and many artists looking for a gig. The Amazing Spider-Man as a title has been published since 1962 and since that time there have been less than 50 writers on ASM alone (leave alone the other satellite titles). Less than 50 is a small tiny number of talent working on a single character, so everyone is expendable and disposable. And fans are so easily brought up with Disney and so on, that they get conned into thinking that writing for their favorite character is something they should do "out of love" when in fact they are exploting you.

If this was public domain you'd see far more writers on Spider-Man.

Get better talent and along with better stories for your real money makers, you will pick up more fans and profit for better comics.

Most of the money for Spider-Man comes from merchandise -- toys, labels, stickers, clothes, and so on. Not comics, not movies, not games.

[RyanParkerMan]

Whatever happened to Doctor Strange? Wasn't he supposed to figure out OMD and tell Peter he's an *******? What happened to that plot? All these issues... 60,000 people spending all this money... for nothing. Spencer and company, somebody at Marvel reads this, you should be ashamed of yourselves. Great, loyal, multi-decade fans spending stimulus money and you put out this story. Wow.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Great, loyal, multi-decade fans spending stimulus money and you put out this story. Wow.

1) These issues were written and prepared before the Lockdown.

2) Three months of 2020 didn't have comics because of the Pandemic.

3) Creators at the comics business are incredibly vulnerable themselves.

The issue was flawed, not everything got addressed, that's all true...but I think "fans spending stimulus money" is a lowblow because that was never part of the plan or something they were prepared for.

[Frontier]

But that's the problem: "their own take" has disrespected Lee, Ditko and Romita's for years...decades even. And Marvel has not only enabled it; they've mandated it. It's time to face facts and realize that the so-called "powers that be" have shirked their responsibility.

I mean, I've still enjoyed Spider-Man stories that have come out of the "powers that be," so I don't see Spidey going Public Domain as a cure all.

[WebSlingWonder]

I mean, I've still enjoyed Spider-Man stories that have come out of the "powers that be," so I don't see Spidey going Public Domain as a cure all.

People you're only thinking of the immediate creative impact. But commercially, creatively, in the long term, you'll find a lot of different approaches that work.

But then again, you've never been one to like change too much, so that doesn't surprise me in your response.

[Frontier]

People you're only thinking of the immediate creative impact. But commercially, creatively, in the long term, you'll find a lot of different approaches that work.

But then again, you've never been one to like change too much, so that doesn't surprise me in your response.

Haven't we still gotten that though? From adaptions, Spencer, Taylor, all the ancilliary satellite titles, Marvel Action, stuff like the upcoming Non-Stop Spider-Man, etc.

[WebSlingWonder]

Haven't we still gotten that though? From adaptions, Spencer, Taylor, all the ancilliary satellite titles, Marvel Action, stuff like the upcoming Non-Stop Spider-Man, etc.

How many of those are "canon"? None but a few. Marvel can put out as much as they can, but the fact is that besides the 616 universe, none of them "count". That's not fair, especially when the other stories are so much better and more cohesive than this. On top of that, none of these works reflect the original version of the character from Lee and Ditko; which would be fine if there were a central grounding point in 616. But there isn't. Now, pretty much every Spider-Man story is an AU after OMD, and it makes no sense why Marvel would retain the rights save for money if they're just printing an AU. Public domain isn't a cure; it's the next step.

In some regards, Spider-Man is already public domain in terms of the creative element.

[Arsenal]

Odds are Strange will be the one who’ll explain what exactly Kindred is, how Harry became him and/or how he connects to OMD (depending on what Harry himself reveals/which pieces he’s even aware of). With one of these issues supposed to change how Peter views both Harry & Norman, I could see Strange popping in to fill in some blanks.

[RyanParkerMan]

I don't think talent is an issue. There are excellent writers, artists, letterers, colorists, inkers at Marvel (granted the editors are weak and they could use some changes there) and heck, even DC for that matter.

Really? How many "great" writers are on Marvel and DC at any given time? At Marvel we have Zdarsky, Cates, Aaron (tough time on Avengers) and Hickman (having a real tough time on the X-Books) and at DC you have Synder (ending his run) and Johns (a legendary writer who picks his spots).

Talent is absolutely the issue. Putting Slott on ASM for 10 years and Iron Man after that is a major issue.

Spider-Man is Marvel Comics flagship character. When is the last time we had a legendary run on that book? How about X-Men? [/QUOTE]

So don't go kowtowing to Disney about this. They are worse, substantially so. In fact they were the ones who muscled and changed the public domain laws into what it has become, retarding progress in the process. . Marvel never screwed over anyone, not Ditko, not Lee, not Starlin, not Wolfman, the way Disney has done to its licensed staff. And don't get me started on Walt Disney and how he saw animators who did the hard work on his cartoons (Disney never animated a damn frame of any of his major works, nor wrote the scripts, nor did the music, nor nothing) get unionized and promptly fired and muscled them out. Or that his company does actual propaganda videos glorifying their founder (Saving Mr. Banks).

I think you're missing my point. By the way, Disney and Marvel and especially DC, any company or entity that's been around for multiple decades, is going to have bad history, bad moments. The last 100 years have been the most disruptive 100 years in human history. 100 years ago, women wouldn't vote. Marvel, DC, and Disney predate the Civil Rights bill. I'm not kowtowing to Disney about anything, I'm making a point that you get what you pay for, and Dan Slott gets paid 100-200-300 bucks a page. Does he have benefits and a 401K? Did he have one before Disney acquired Marvel?

All the people that Marvel never screwed over??? Is that why Image exists?

Why invest when people do it for free? There are only a few big licensed characters at Marvel and many aspiring writers and others doing comics and many artists looking for a gig.

You invest based on risk and ROI. Marvel Comics has a customer base at scale, which lets them de-risk different stories and characters. Fan fiction doesn't have that scale, and even if they do, it's more difficult to measure the sucess and response or stories that are sold for free.

The Amazing Spider-Man as a title has been published since 1962 and since that time there have been less than 50 writers on ASM alone (leave alone the other satellite titles). Less than 50 is a small tiny number of talent working on a single character, so everyone is expendable and disposable. And fans are so easily brought up with Disney and so on, that they get conned into thinking that writing for their favorite character is something they should do "out of love" when in fact they are exploting you.

There's no con. Disney pays the checks. When Jason Aaron gets his paycheck, it's from Disney, not from Marvel. So when I talk about "the company" investing in "a division" I'm going to reference disney. The fact that the pitch is do this because you love it, is the problem.

If this was public domain you'd see far more writers on Spider-Man.

Duh

Most of the money for Spider-Man comes from merchandise -- toys, labels, stickers, clothes, and so on. Not comics, not movies, not games.

And where do the characters and stories come from? They come from comics. That's why you invest in comics.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I mean, I've still enjoyed Spider-Man stories that have come out of the "powers that be," so I don't see Spidey going Public Domain as a cure all.

Going PD means that Spider-Man isn't under the whim of a handful of people (Marvel Editors, Execs) who didn't have anything to do with the original creation of the character, and aren't faithful to the original vision of the creators and who will actively limit and arrest the direction and halt any attempts at change and growth to bring him line into how he was originally introduced.

It also means creators who work on a PD property via adaptation can earn from their art and contributions in a way they wouldn't if they work at Marvel on license.

Going PD means that Spider-Man can be enjoyed and appreciated as a creation independent of any corporate baggage.