(Spoilers) So like "Steve" and Diana in WW84.... are we gonna talk about it?

[Alpha]

It's doesn't diverge attention from anything. Multiple conversations can happen at once.



This is worse, but okay.

And some conversations have an impact on others. You are all talking about something that has no emotional comparison to abuse, and even it's classification as abuse within it's own world is quite debatable. Regardless of if it is or not abuse, it doesn't fricking matter. It has no impact on the real world. Nobody in this world can do anything that resembles it. The intelectual level of this conversation is inbred brain.

[Immortal Weapon]

Oh my god, why would we make a big fuss about fictional problems??? Why in the world would you actually think this is worth discussion. Don't you understand that real abuse matters and when you start stirring crap over fake stuff that has no connection to reality you are taking away the significance of real abuse and it's depiction in fiction. Diana having sex with Steve in a body that belonged to someone else has nothing to do with real abuse. Stop mocking real abuse.

Being fictional doesn't make it any less of a ethical issue. Within the context of that fictional universe the body possession is a violation.

[LordUltimus]

It was Steve's body. He gave consent.

No, it was clearly another man's body Steve was in.

[LordUltimus]

And some conversations have an impact on others. You are all talking about something that has no emotional comparison to abuse, and even it's classification as abuse within it's own world is quite debatable. Regardless of if it is or not abuse, it doesn't fricking matter. It has no impact on the real world. Nobody in this world can do anything that resembles it. The intelectual level of this conversation is inbred brain.

Yeah, I can't imagine sex without consent in the real world.

[Goldrake]

No, it was clearly another man's body Steve was in.

in real life how often does it happen that someone like Steve gets into another man's body and has sex with a centuries old amazon daughter of zeus?

[LordUltimus]

in real life how often does it happen that someone like Steve gets into another man's body and has sex with a centuries old amazon daughter of zeus?

By that logic, you shouldn't get invested at all because it doesn't happen in real life.

[Steel Inquisitor]

in real life how often does it happen that someone like Steve gets into another man's body and has sex with a centuries old amazon daughter of zeus?

It doesn't, that's why fiction uses things like metaphors. Steve's body is like a coma patient, there are demons on Supernatural more willing to get permission on taking on someone's body (Ruby) than what the heroes did in '84. Fiction has been exploring morality since its founding, like Frankenstein and Dracula.

[ChibaMariners]

This is borderline trolling. Soldiers know the risk of going into combat. Soldiers are expected to die in the battlefield. It is their choice. Being a soldier and dying in the battlefield is not considered a human rights violation.

If you think being a soldier is comparable to rape or having your body used in anyway without your consent, then you obviously don't know any soldiers and are actually insulting them. And I pray with that mentality no one you love ever has their consent violated.

Pretty sure German soldiers in WW1 were conscripted. American soldiers as well, with selective service. It wasn't all their choice. IDK if it's as heinous as rape, but that's some kind of violation against human autonomy. IDK who would willingly choose to be shot at for some suits war.

[Goldrake]

By that logic, you shouldn't get invested at all because it doesn't happen in real life.

Its called escapism.
You are using the wrong equation, its comics, many things don't make sense, as if someone dead can suddenly turn up into someone else body. Come on.
This thread is ridiculous arguing about fiction, with your reasoning children should not watch movies because they can believe that you can fly or live at the bottom of the ocean.
Its fiction

[Goldrake]

Pretty sure German soldiers in WW1 were conscripted. American soldiers as well, with selective service. It wasn't all their choice. IDK if it's as heinous as rape, but that's some kind of violation against human autonomy. IDK who would willingly choose to be shot at for some suits war.

Wrong, Germans enthusiastically enrolled like many others in different countries at the start of WWI. Among those who enrolled was an Austrian named Hitler. You forget that Germans in WWII weren't angels they had a superiority complex of themselves, they believed to be superior to the rest and that victory would have made them the most powerful nation on earth. They called it the Second Reich which was forerunner of the infamous Third.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Its called escapism.
You are using the wrong equation, its comics, many things don't make sense, as if someone dead can suddenly turn up into someone else body. Come on.
This thread is ridiculous arguing about fiction, with your reasoning children should not watch movies because they can believe that you can fly or live at the bottom of the ocean.
Its fiction

Fiction is escapism, what it isn't is not analysed by the audience, and this ignores how fiction has been using metaphors about real subjects since forever. Dracula isn't just about an old vampire who wants to conquer England. This is what every piece of media goes through, especially movies like this from their audience and critics. Look at the reaction to Ready Player One.




This wasn't even a deep dive in RP1 which the internet is rife with, what we're dissecting about '84 is nothing. Twilight, Star Wars, Star Trek, pick any DCU or Marvel movie. They all get scrutiny. Is this the first you've heard about literary criticism?

[Awonder]

You apply it the same way people have looked at works of fiction as allegory or metaphors for centuries...

... Just because something in a work of fiction can't happen in real life, doesn't mean we cannot draw a close match and understand the meaning in the fiction.

I agree that it's fair, and even good, to ask and examine questions like this in media. The Disney princesses have been the topic of such analysis for years, and the company has reexamined their approach as a result.

However, trying to "draw a close match" from the fictional to the non-fiction can be quite flawed.

Exactly. Too many people cannot be saying the same for it to not have an element of truth to it, ...

Lots of people saying something doesn't make it inherently true.

... even if those calling the situation rape might be taking it too far.

This is where I am. It's fair to ask questions, such as the ethical use of a body after a mind-swap; but with fictional situations that cannot occur in real life, real life conclusions can feel like a poor fit.

[Awonder]

It's fiction, not everything has to be 1=1 to be rape in real life to matter in discussions about media like super-hero movies. The complaint is this: a man who's body was hijacked by another and did sexual acts with his body without his consent and never tell him what happened It's more then just rape, they routinely put his life in danger and who knows the consequences of what happened to his life while Steve was travelling the world. Did he have kids? What about his job? What were his friends thinking when he disappeared? They all would have been affected had Steve died in that body and they definitely would';t like someone having sex with it. Which is why the movie went out of its way to turn that man into an object, rather than a person. Objects don't have feelings to hurt.

Rape is sexual contact without consent, he never have consent for his body to used like that. In fact, Diana made sure he never found out anything.

In fiction everything is open to being a metaphor, that's how it works. What did you think Dracula was about?

Fiction can make some great metaphors; however, when it isn't "1=1," as in the case here, it is imperfect.

Do you think this part of the movie was intended as a metaphor for consent/rape? If not, then what was implied is not the same as what was inferred, right? Of course, messages can still be sent even unintentionally.

You (and others) ask a number of questions about "Handsome Man;" honest question here: do we know for sure he existed before Diana's wish? Is it possible he was created from scratch in much the same way the nuclear bombs appear to have been? Similarly, do we know he was alive? In 'Heaven Can Wait,' iirc, the main character took over the body of someone who had just died.

So, for me, given that we're dealing with a fictional situation that can't happen (afaik), and we really don't know all the facts (of the fiction), I'm not comfortable drawing any firm conclusions.

[Awonder]

Its called escapism.
You are using the wrong equation, its comics, many things don't make sense, as if someone dead can suddenly turn up into someone else body. Come on.
This thread is ridiculous arguing about fiction, with your reasoning children should not watch movies because they can believe that you can fly or live at the bottom of the ocean.
Its fiction

"Adults...struggle desperately with fiction, demanding constantly that it conform to the rules of everyday life. Adults foolishly demand to know how Superman can possibly fly, or how Batman can possibly run a multibillion-dollar business empire during the day and fight crime at night, when the answer is obvious even to the smallest child: because it's not real.”

Grant Morrison ;-)

[Restingvoice]

I haven't seen the movie I don't care about anyone else's opinion. I only want to know two facts:
1. Is it a possession or Steve's whole being replace the guy? Like the guy is written out of existence.
More importantly:
2. Who between Diana, Steve, and The Guy know what's happening, and who doesn't?

Because rape needs 1 person to be aware and doing it anyway, while the other unable to give consent, by any cause. I don't care if the cause is alcohol or magic.
If no one's aware, then it's not rape. They're all being screwed with by the higher power.

I don't want opinions or debate about movie realism or whatnot. What I care from the movie is my business. Just please answer it with the facts from the movie.