(Spoilers) So like "Steve" and Diana in WW84.... are we gonna talk about it?

[Alpha]

Yeah ok but I don't see how anyone could take that conclusion from this film. Diana is only having sex with him because of the possession. If you can find someone that believes they are possessed and wants to have sex with you than WW84 believes it's ok. I find this ridiculous, but not problematic.

[Perseus]

First, the why not bring Steve back whole question.

The wishes start off pretty small, and then get much bigger. My take was that was part of what was going on. Bringing a soul back is a lot easier than doing it and recreating a body.

Per the sexual assault - I wondered about it but ultimately I don’t see it. The guy literally wasn’t in his body when it happened. And I don’t just mean he was unconscious, he just wasn’t there AT ALL. You can’t violate somebody if they aren’t there in any sense whatsoever. Whatever happened did not happen to him.

Consider this - if person A and B swap bodies, and then person A has sex while their mind is in B’s physical shell, was Person B raped? They were in another body at the time.

The whole idea of Diana being willing to leave the poor guys soul in limbo forever is to me far more troubling.

The McGuffin has some pretty dodgy rules tbh. 1) There is a "give and take" except when there isn't 2) You only get one wish except for Barbara 3) every person's wish needs to be rescinded, this is assuming the people who wished to see there parents again or wanting to be cured of something 4) despite all that happened people just moved on like nothing happened, there was no mind wipe or anything

If person A slept with someone while inside person B's body, then person A is committing sexual assault as person A is using person B's body without consent. And yeah, Diana being fine with whatever happened to Handsome Guy's soul is kind of troubling too.

[Alpha]

The McGuffin has some pretty dodgy rules tbh. 1) There is a "give and take" except when there isn't 2) You only get one wish except for Barbara 3) every person's wish needs to be rescinded, this is assuming the people who wished to see there parents again or wanting to be cured of something 4) despite all that happened people just moved on like nothing happened, there was no mind wipe or anything

If person A slept with someone while inside person B's body, then person A is committing sexual assault as person A is using person B's body without consent. And yeah, Diana being fine with whatever happened to Handsome Guy's soul is kind of troubling too.

I'm not even arguing if it was consensual or not, I'm saying that it doesn't apply to real life so who cares!

Barbara doesn't get two wishes. In the Airplane scene I think it's stated very obviously that Max Lord will use the price of other people's wishes to grant Cheetah her Apex form. And in what instance does a wish not have a cost during the film?

[Kingdom X]

I think it could have been explained better or they could have taken another route. But people are complaining about things that are literally not shown in the movie. Now maybe the movie should have shown more. But in the absence of information, we shouldn't just fill in whatever we want that sends the worst message. People are looking for something to be angry about and then confabulating the information they didn't get to show the story and the director in the worst light.

You literally don't see Steve and Diana having sex. You literally don't see what happens to the Handsome Man. You literally don't see how the magic worked its effect. You literally don't see what happens after Diana renounces her wish.

And in the movie, the wishes of others are dirty and sordid and they tarnish the people that make them. Why should Diana be any different? Maybe her desire for Steve was so strong it did blind her to the consequences. And maybe she has committed a great sin. But isn't that exactly what the movie is driving at? It's not trying to avoid the pain and the degradation of what happens in the world--it shows that. It shows that you can't have it all. You must pay a terrible price for thoughtless greed and selfish desires.

As far as this being a trope from the long dead past, I don't see that. This trope is commonly used today for both male and female characters and it's the sort of plot that comic books like to exploit. Taking over other people's bodies and using them, adopting avatars to play out ones own fantasies, casting magic charms to get the person of their dreams--none of that has gone away. You'd have to throw out a large part of fantasy fiction, if you wanted to cleanse them of any possible negative interpretation.

So they just woke up in bed together hardly clothed and you think they didn’t have sex? All I know was that in Buffy when Faith took over her body and slept with her boyfriend, it was made clear that she violated the both of them. Showing him at the end of the movie honestly made it worse because it was clear that this was a man with his own life, interests, and loved ones that Diana was fine with “borrowing” for a while. If they wanted to make this the main moral dilema of the movie than it would’ve been more acceptable, but if the world didn’t need saving than idk if she would’ve reversed the wish.

[brettc1]

The McGuffin has some pretty dodgy rules tbh. 1) There is a "give and take" except when there isn't 2) You only get one wish except for Barbara 3) every person's wish needs to be rescinded, this is assuming the people who wished to see there parents again or wanting to be cured of something 4) despite all that happened people just moved on like nothing happened, there was no mind wipe or anything

If person A slept with someone while inside person B's body, then person A is committing sexual assault as person A is using person B's body without consent. And yeah, Diana being fine with whatever happened to Handsome Guy's soul is kind of troubling too.

Is it your body of you’re in a different one? Did Faith sexually assault Buffy when they were mind swapped in Buffy the Vampire Slayer?

[brettc1]

So they just woke up in bed together hardly clothed and you think they didn’t have sex? All I know was that in Buffy when Faith took over her body and slept with her boyfriend, it was made clear that she violated the both of them. Showing him at the end of the movie honestly made it worse because it was clear that this was a man with his own life, interests, and loved ones that Diana was fine with “borrowing” for a while. If they wanted to make this the main moral dilema of the movie than it would’ve been more acceptable, but if the world didn’t need saving than idk if she would’ve reversed the wish.

Heh I just posted the Buffy example before I read this.

I don’t know it was made clear she violated Riley (though it should have been). But in terms of Buffy the violation to me was identified as her relationship with Riley, not her personal self.

[superduperman]

After three years of #MeToo, this seems REALLY tone deaf. If the guy didn't consent, it's rape. Funny how this doesn't need to be explained with a woman. And Steve put this guy in harms way on top of everything else which I find even more disturbing than the sex. Patty Jenkins has to know better than this. You know that a lot of the people handwaving this away would be upset if the genders were reversed. Especially since there are so many other ways they could have done this. It's like they picked the most complicated way around this they could find.

[Alpha]

After three years of #MeToo, this seems REALLY tone deaf. If the guy didn't consent, it's rape. Funny how this doesn't need to be explained with a woman. And Steve put this guy in harms way on top of everything else which I find even more disturbing than the sex. Patty Jenkins has to know better than this. You know that a lot of the people handwaving this away would be upset if the genders were reversed. Especially since there are so many other ways they could have done this. It's like they picked the most complicated way around this they could find.

It seems like nobody has a response to my statement. If the lesson people take from this movie is "If someone who thinks they are possessed wants to have sex with you it's ok to do it", how is this such a big deal? This would never apply to reality. You guys are pretending that the film has Diana having sex with an unconscious body, when that is not the case.

[Psy-lock]

It seems like nobody has a response to my statement. If the lesson people take from this movie is "If someone who thinks they are possessed wants to have sex with you it's ok to do it", how is this such a big deal? This would never apply to reality. You guys are pretending that the film has Diana having sex with an unconscious body, when that is not the case.

Dr Psycho's and Killgrave's powers also can't apply to reality yet no one has a problem saying they're rapists. Hell, in this very movie none of the things Maxwell Lord does can happen in real life, does this mean we can't judge his actions either?

[superduperman]

It seems like nobody has a response to my statement. If the lesson people take from this movie is "If someone who thinks they are possessed wants to have sex with you it's ok to do it", how is this such a big deal? This would never apply to reality. You guys are pretending that the film has Diana having sex with an unconscious body, when that is not the case.

This guy didn't consent to BEING possessed. That's the point. At no point did he give Steve permission to take his body out for a joyride. If someone was going to put my body in harms way, I'd kind of like a say in the matter first.

[Alpha]

Being "mind controlled" or "body controlled" is much more comparable to reality than being "possessed". You guys are worried about irrelevant things.

[brettc1]

After three years of #MeToo, this seems REALLY tone deaf. If the guy didn't consent, it's rape. Funny how this doesn't need to be explained with a woman. And Steve put this guy in harms way on top of everything else which I find even more disturbing than the sex. Patty Jenkins has to know better than this. You know that a lot of the people handwaving this away would be upset if the genders were reversed. Especially since there are so many other ways they could have done this. It's like they picked the most complicated way around this they could find.

Then maybe they didn’t have sex.

I get this is the conclusion folks have jumped too, but it’s not necessarily correct. Diana has clothes on and just because Steve is shirtless is not conclusive proof.

Also, It’s Diana who vetos the whole staying bed thing in favour of finding out what’s going on. Which Steve readily agrees to.

So maybe they didn’t have sex and we are all just thinking the worst.

[superduperman]

Even under the best of circumstances Steve put this guy's body in harms way. Again, without his permission. Mind controlled, possessed, however you want to put it, none of it was necessary. There was no logical reason this Infinity Sto-er, Dreamstone couldn't just give him his old body back. It literally made nuclear missiles appear out of thin air. This contributed absolutely nothing to the story whatsoever. There was no reason to do it this way.

[Alpha]

Even under the best of circumstances Steve put this guy's body in harms way. Again, without his permission. Mind controlled, possessed, however you want to put it, none of it was necessary. There was no logical reason this Infinity Sto-er, Dreamstone couldn't just give him his old body back. It literally made nuclear missiles appear out of thin air. This contributed absolutely nothing to the story whatsoever. There was no reason to do it this way.

I agree. What I disagree with is making a big fuss about the abusive nature of the relationship when it has absolutely no basis or comparison to reality.

[Agent Z]

I agree. What I disagree with is making a big fuss about the abusive nature of the relationship when it has absolutely no basis or comparison to reality.

But mind control does?