T'Challa: The Black Panther Appreciation 2021

[4sake Baned]

Im certain you can offer more to the discussion than this. I didnt come to troll, and I'm not antagonizing. Be constructive.

This thread is highly critical of the run but i wouldn't call it toxic. Theres
no need to make it so.

Nope, nah & naw I stand by my previous statement I appreciate that laugh . The brothers educated u on where u are wrong & nothing else really else needs to be said honestly..

[Devaishwarya]

That interview was just about as silly and pointless as his BP run...(I couldn't read though all of it)

What "Heights"?
Sales figures for BP is the lowest it's been in decades.

[chief12d]

The MCU doesn't guarantee character pushes lol. Scalret Witch just got an entire TV show and is nowhere to be seen in the comics. Falcon and Winter Soldier both are floating between other peoples books after getting their own show. Ant Man, has had what 5 film appearances? No consistent book.

I'm speaking strictly on the comics side here. Since this very run has started, or around the same time we've seen Captain America replaced by Sam Wilson, then steve was turned into a nazi. Iron man has been killed at least twice and gone through what 3 different writers? Thor got stripped of his powers and replaced by Jane foster for like 2 years. Captain Marvel has had a run that has affected very little if any of the larger MU, also tossed between a couple writers. Black Widow was killed off; brought back and has been under like 3 or 4 writers the whole time. Seems to have finally found decent footing under Thomspon Hawkeye has had multiple minis, nothing solid. Hulk up until Ewing got to him was all over the place, dead not dead sorta dead etc. Wanda is in limbo. Scott is in limbo. Hank is a villain, in limbo. Quicksilver... lol.

Compare those main avenger characters whove been rocking the films for a lot longer than BP was to what we got. Id say relatively TChalla got off pretty easy.

His supporting cast is all over the place. An X book falls out Wakanda specifically. Wakanda is getting solo tie in books for events. The whole nations arsthetic is much more solidly established now giving future writers things to built off of. Wakanda now has stories that can be told entirely in the far reaches of space. The lore of the nation has been given much more solid groundwork of the rather unchanging nature, with past Black Panthers and ancestors and stuff.

I think all that stuff matters. But time will tell if marvel agrees.

Coates being a stable presence in the BP corner does not equate to him having massive influence on the wider MU comics and being responsible for T’Challa’s elevation. Those are two separate conversations. As I said, it’s customary for characters to get pushed when they have MCU stuff in the works. We have several Black Widow comics that are getting pushed out, Bucky and Falcon had a mini prior to/during the TV series, Eternals has a book and will likely get another after the movie drops, Shang-Chi’s in the same boat. We had Iron Man supporting characters get a push in the comics to build up his franchise due to the MCU and obviously we’ve seen how Cap was made the centerpiece of Secret Empire and was driving the entire Avengers line for a time. The Inhumans got the god push because there were plans in other forms of media for them as well.

Shuri getting a single solo after the movie that makes her like the movie version and was only green lit because the movie blew up her popularity doesn’t mean Coates is responsible for BP becoming more prominent. It means he happened to be writing the book when the movie proved to be watershed moment in pop culture history. Same goes for Okoye getting pushed, which was happening before she even appeared in his actual solo title. Same goes for stuff like Agents of Wakanda which was an Avengers spin-off Aaron pushed for or the BP vs Deadpool story, or the Killmonger book, which was a soft MCU tie-in.

Coates at the end of the day was in the right place at the right time to oversee an expansion of the BP IP, which was bound to happen with him on the title or not. And as has been stated, none of the concepts he introduced (space empire, Griots, Midnight Angels, constitutional council, etc) mattered outside his book. The only things I’m willing to concede is the X-office did reference what he was doing with Storm, but that was only when they decided to break them up lol.

Even within the actual BP books outside the introduction of the Djalia (which is just an expansion of the Priest-era equivalent) and the aesthetics Stelfreeze introduced (the look of Wakanda and the suit) very little of Coates’ lore is looking to be relevant in the future. We’re not getting another space odyssey, Ridley is doing espionage. All signs seem to indicate the love story he’s hinted at will be with a woman not named Storm. Okoye is already positioned to be more relevant than the Midnight Angels and none of the villains Coates shows are looking to be included. Hell even his approach to T’Challa is starkly different with the character keeping secrets and enacting a true agenda behind the scenes, things the Coates version never did except when he kinda lied about not knowing if Storm was a goddess which is not very similar.

[DigiCom]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correl...mply_causation

If you want to give TNC credit, you need to point to things he actually CREATED. Not just the fact that he dragged out a poorly-selling book for 5 years.

Reminder: The BP movie sold 22 million tickets in it's first WEEKEND. And that's just in the US. Even if we assumed that everyone saw the movie 10 times (unreasonable, but what the hell, I'll give you as much rope as you like), that's 2.2 MILLION people.

And how many people read Coates? We have the numbers up to issue #15 of this run:



With the exception of the usual first-issue spikes, his sales cratered. By the end, Marvel was selling 18K a month to the stores, and who knows how many actually ended uo in the hands of the customers.

And answer this: If Coates storytelling is so strong and groundbreaking, why are there TWELVE variant covers to this finale?

Is it just possible that they wanted to grab as many orders as they could at the last minute, because there aren't enough readers who give a damn?

And we've already seen that his vaunted Galactic Empire is being ignored. Even by continuity nerd Al Ewing.

[MindofShadow]

The MCU doesn't guarantee character pushes lol.

It absolutely guarantees character pushes.

It doesn't guarantee the push works. But they try. Every single time. With some characters, they try more than others (Carol for instance).

But comparing BP to Ant-Man and Scarlet Witch and Falcon and Winter Soldier isn't a fair comparison. Unlike those people, T'challa had a rich history of holding his own solo book anyway. Making Black Panther "a thing" was elevating a C/D list character up... not elevating an E-list "team character" only character up. That is a huge difference.

You are trying to give Coates credit for things that had nothing to do with him. Wakanda was already used in events and team books as needed before he came around (Secret Invasion, AvX, Hickman's entire run). T'challa has been in team books before (Avengers, F4, Hickman's Illuminati, Ultimates) Coates was around.

Shuri got a book because of the MCU. Okoye was suddenly ressurected?? (nobody knows) because of the MCU and started appearing everywhere because of it. Killmonger got a book because of the MCU.

There are obviously somethings that will persist in the run to varying degrees. Stuff like the city names (Birnin whatever) will stick. I imagine Ayo/Aneka will stick to some degree. Force push is here to stay.

But what huge lore defining stuff will actually last? There can't be much because Coates himself got rid of most of it in like 3 issues. The Ghost Panther Djalia memory place was destroyed. Originators are off planet somewhere now. T'challa is still king (we will see how the emperor thing goes). The Midnight Angels are magically in Dora armor again and seem to be following Okoye. Bast is back.

So really... what has Coates left out there to be used? Just the Empire. Which... if Wakanda having a humongous technologically advanced space empire isn't mentioned by the other books... does it even relaly exist lol?

[Cville]

Coates being a stable presence in the BP corner does not equate to him having massive influence on the wider MU comics and being responsible for T’Challa’s elevation. Those are two separate conversations. As I said, it’s customary for characters to get pushed when they have MCU stuff in the works. We have several Black Widow comics that are getting pushed out, Bucky and Falcon had a mini prior to/during the TV series, Eternals has a book and will likely get another after the movie drops, Shang-Chi’s in the same boat. We had Iron Man supporting characters get a push in the comics to build up his franchise due to the MCU and obviously we’ve seen how Cap was made the centerpiece of Secret Empire and was driving the entire Avengers line for a time. The Inhumans got the god push because there were plans in other forms of media for them as well.

Shuri getting a single solo after the movie that makes her like the movie version and was only green lit because the movie blew up her popularity doesn’t mean Coates is responsible for BP becoming more prominent. It means he happened to be writing the book when the movie proved to be watershed moment in pop culture history. Same goes for Okoye getting pushed, which was happening before she even appeared in his actual solo title. Same goes for stuff like Agents of Wakanda which was an Avengers spin-off Aaron pushed for or the BP vs Deadpool story, or the Killmonger book, which was a soft MCU tie-in.

Coates at the end of the day was in the right place at the right time to oversee an expansion of the BP IP, which was bound to happen with him on the title or not. And as has been stated, none of the concepts he introduced (space empire, Griots, Midnight Angels, constitutional council, etc) mattered outside his book. The only things I’m willing to concede is the X-office did reference what he was doing with Storm, but that was only when they decided to break them up lol.

Even within the actual BP books outside the introduction of the Djalia (which is just an expansion of the Priest-era equivalent) and the aesthetics Stelfreeze introduced (the look of Wakanda and the suit) very little of Coates’ lore is looking to be relevant in the future. We’re not getting another space odyssey, Ridley is doing espionage. All signs seem to indicate the love story he’s hinted at will be with a woman not named Storm. Okoye is already positioned to be more relevant than the Midnight Angels and none of the villains Coates shows are looking to be included.

He also sounded upset that if any of those concepts get turned into something later Marvel won't toss him any royalties.

[MindofShadow]

Ah...so they are just in an entanglement....

Sexual chemistry and she is good in a fight.

Seems to be it lol

[Toonstrack]

If you wish to frame it that way, be my guest.

[chief12d]

I wasn't even going to read the article until you said this, then I had to go see. Lol

Let me leave it here for everyone. Cause when that issue came out people just denied the truth. Lol.

Q:
Continuing on Storm, you inherited the T’Challa/Ororo relationship in a weird place. They were kind of divorced or estranged, or both, but you leave them in a place where they’re not formally together but still very much in love, it seems.

A:
I think marriage is overrated [as an end goal for fictional relationships]. T’Challa can have a girlfriend. Ororo can have a boyfriend. It’s fine. She has a whole other life. He has a whole other life. It just seemed like the arrangement that would work best, given who they were.

Storm and T’Challa got that Will and Jada love lol. They’re friendly but not really friends and they’ll sleep with each other when they’re not in committed relationships with other people. Which basically gives Ridley free reign to introduce a new love interest and ignore Storm for his entire run if he wants.

[Toonstrack]

Coates being a stable presence in the BP corner does not equate to him having massive influence on the wider MU comics and being responsible for T’Challa’s elevation. Those are two separate conversations. As I said, it’s customary for characters to get pushed when they have MCU stuff in the works. We have several Black Widow comics that are getting pushed out, Bucky and Falcon had a mini prior to/during the TV series, Eternals has a book and will likely get another after the movie drops, Shang-Chi’s in the same boat. We had Iron Man supporting characters get a push in the comics to build up his franchise due to the MCU and obviously we’ve seen how Cap was made the centerpiece of Secret Empire and was driving the entire Avengers line for a time. The Inhumans got the god push because there were plans in other forms of media for them as well.

Shuri getting a single solo after the movie that makes her like the movie version and was only green lit because the movie blew up her popularity doesn’t mean Coates is responsible for BP becoming more prominent. It means he happened to be writing the book when the movie proved to be watershed moment in pop culture history. Same goes for Okoye getting pushed, which was happening before she even appeared in his actual solo title. Same goes for stuff like Agents of Wakanda which was an Avengers spin-off Aaron pushed for or the BP vs Deadpool story, or the Killmonger book, which was a soft MCU tie-in.

Coates at the end of the day was in the right place at the right time to oversee an expansion of the BP IP, which was bound to happen with him on the title or not. And as has been stated, none of the concepts he introduced (space empire, Griots, Midnight Angels, constitutional council, etc) mattered outside his book. The only things I’m willing to concede is the X-office did reference what he was doing with Storm, but that was only when they decided to break them up lol.

Even within the actual BP books outside the introduction of the Djalia (which is just an expansion of the Priest-era equivalent) and the aesthetics Stelfreeze introduced (the look of Wakanda and the suit) very little of Coates’ lore is looking to be relevant in the future. We’re not getting another space odyssey, Ridley is doing espionage. All signs seem to indicate the love story he’s hinted at will be with a woman not named Storm. Okoye is already positioned to be more relevant than the Midnight Angels and none of the villains Coates shows are looking to be included. Hell even his approach to T’Challa is starkly different with the character keeping secrets and enacting a true agenda behind the scenes, things the Coates version never did except when he kinda lied about not knowing if Storm was a goddess which is not very similar.

Wakanda has a specified location now with solid unchanging borders. It has a flag and is divided up into different regions and landmarks which will again not be changing. Wakanda is now a nest constant presence in the MU even outside of the book. Getting more mentions and attention than similar situations like Latveria. Coates absolutely played a role in the design of it, I dont think that is entirely stelgreeze especially given that Coates largely did the geography of the nation from the ground up. From this we have seen new abilities be used by soldiers, costumes, buildings.

Many of the ones saying Coates "did nothing" were also not long ago saying he tainted the image of wakanda by introducing the darker aspects of his history and past.... so I'm legitimately asking which is it? You really can't have it both ways.


The nation is under much more of a spotlight and with that comes these things, good and bad, but these changes are solid and they are not going to be changed, that isn't something easily said for this character given the history.

And I'm not even getting into the more mystical lore aspects which yes were absolutely there before Coates but has either been revamped, recontextualized or expanded.

[Redjack]

The MCU doesn't guarantee character pushes lol.

yes and no. and you've got the order wrong.

1) not every character gets a push to coincide with the movies. but MANY DO.

2) if you suddenly see a lot of Dr. Doom over a few months, after not seeing him much at all, you can expect he'll figure strong in the Fantastic Four movie that was just coincidentally announced to drop that year. Go back and check Thanos's comic book presence in the run-up to Infinity War.

The synergy isn't 1-to-1 (and thank god for that) but, yeah, the movies do push the comics in terms of bringing characters to the front of the stage. It just doesn't always synch up with the movie release dates for a LOT of weird reasons.

[Cville]

Wakanda has a specified location now with solid unchanging borders. It has a flag and is divided up into different regions and landmarks which will again not be changing. Wakanda is now a nest constant presence in the MU even outside of the book. Getting more mentions and attention than similar situations like Latveria. Coates absolutely played a role in the design of it, I dont think that is entirely stelgreeze especially given that Coates largely did the geography of the nation from the ground up. From this we have seen new abilities be used by soldiers, costumes, buildings.

Many of the ones saying Coates "did nothing" were also not long ago saying he tainted the image of wakanda by introducing the darker aspects of his history and past.... so I'm legitimately asking which is it? You really can't have it both ways.


The nation is under much more of a spotlight and with that comes these things, good and bad, but these changes are solid and they are not going to be changed, that isn't something easily said for this character given the history.

And I'm not even getting into the more mystical lore aspects which yes were absolutely there before Coates but has either been revamped, recontextualized or expanded.

We either say Coates did nothing "positive" for Wakanda or nothing happens in individual issues as the plot does not progress.

Just take this quote;

"I mean, you asked me something I would change. Probably if I did it again, I probably would have had him figure out who he was at issue 6 of that arc"

And for context, he got his memories back in issue 11. And earlier in the quote he said he would have liked to not have done that for at least 20 issues. Essential he doesn't know which way is up when plotting a story.

[chief12d]

Wakanda has a specified location now with solid unchanging borders. It has a flag and is divided up into different regions and landmarks which will again not be changing. Wakanda is now a nest constant presence in the MU even outside of the book. Getting more mentions and attention than similar situations like Latveria. Coates absolutely played a role in the design of it, I dont think that is entirely stelgreeze especially given that Coates largely did the geography of the nation from the ground up. From this we have seen new abilities be used by soldiers, costumes, buildings.

Many of the ones saying Coates "did nothing" were also not long ago saying he tainted the image of wakanda by introducing the darker aspects of his history and past.... so I'm legitimately asking which is it? You really can't have it both ways.


The nation is under much more of a spotlight and with that comes these things, good and bad, but these changes are solid and they are not going to be changed, that isn't something easily said for this character given the history.

And I'm not even getting into the more mystical lore aspects which yes were absolutely there before Coates but has either been revamped, recontextualized or expanded.

If you think that Coates’ largely poorly selling comic that almost never got referenced outside the main solo is responsible for T’Challa being at the forefront of the Avengers line up and his side characters getting minis then feel free to believe that. I’ve outlined all the evidence that suggests otherwise but if you feel that way more power to you and I hope you continue to enjoy his work.

I’ll co-sign that Coates did lay out the geography of Wakanda and introduce (but not really expand) new mystical concepts but as of right now it’s impossible to say that those minor updates to the mythos will matter past his run (excluding the Djalia). Most of the locations he laid out didn’t even appear like several of those cities. They objectively didn’t matter outside his book though nor did they elevate T’Challa in the wider scope of Marvel publication.

Same goes for the empire, potential is there but outside a vague reference in SWORD it’s had no ramifications either and seems to be ignored in the upcoming BP book. Shuri is more like her MCU counterpart than how she was pre-MCU and Griot has not been a relevant concept for her either. I believe the MCU alone was responsible for the scale and story decisions of T’Challa’s push, regardless of the quality you think the main book has. But I respect your support for Coates’ work and hope it opens you to exploring other BP series if you haven’t already read them. He’s a great character and it’s nice to be able to finally discuss the end of one era and the future of the upcoming one, even if we disagree lol.

[Devaishwarya]

Wakanda as a fully formed and fleshed out nation, as a people, as a society, as a force to be reckoned with by the rest of the MU existed long before Coates came to rip it all of that to shreds.

jus sayin'

[Besouro]

That was the movie man lol.

Look at the Avengers line up right now... that was the movie.

The only person really to acknowledge Coates run at all was Ewing because he was a continuity nerd and it was just bare minimum stuff.

Giving credit to Coates for the wider MU is nutso. We just had a full on Symbiote Event and you wouldn't know it in the main book... DESPITE THE MAIN VILLAIN BEING A SYMBIOTE.

Wakanda was already doing space stuff in Ultimates years before the Galactic Empire stuff. And the Galacti Empire has not been touched at all despite having at least 2 huge events involving space armies (King in Black and Empyre)

Truth.... Agreed and co-signed!