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  1. #6496
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ekie View Post
    Does Jonathan Hickman run not exist?
    I was wondering the exact same thing when I read that comment. Lololol. LMAO!!!

  2. #6497
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    He had one semi complete story and 4 years of bad fanfic. I'm dead serious, I wonder what sort of Vulcan death grip Coates had on everyone's nuts that they threw heaps of praise on this trashcan rune, or are they so desperate to see black people show up they accept any nonsensical convoluted story that rambles on but actually says nothing, and constantly contradicts itself.
    Perfect description of TNC's entire BP run... Can't believe Marvel made us waste 5 years of our lifespan on this dung heap FINALLY, ITS OVER.

    Mr.Ridley..... dear goodness please please don't disappoint us.

  3. #6498
    Fantastic Member Toonstrack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redjack View Post
    yes and no. and you've got the order wrong.

    1) not every character gets a push to coincide with the movies. but MANY DO.

    2) if you suddenly see a lot of Dr. Doom over a few months, after not seeing him much at all, you can expect he'll figure strong in the Fantastic Four movie that was just coincidentally announced to drop that year. Go back and check Thanos's comic book presence in the run-up to Infinity War.

    The synergy isn't 1-to-1 (and thank god for that) but, yeah, the movies do push the comics in terms of bringing characters to the front of the stage. It just doesn't always synch up with the movie release dates for a LOT of weird reasons.

    This is true. And honestly it's to marvels own deficit. There probably should be a Wanda book. I could see a falcon mini or even ongoing happening

  4. #6499
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    That was the movie man lol.

    Look at the Avengers line up right now... that was the movie.

    The only person really to acknowledge Coates run at all was Ewing because he was a continuity nerd and it was just bare minimum stuff.

    Giving credit to Coates for the wider MU is nutso. We just had a full on Symbiote Event and you wouldn't know it in the main book... DESPITE THE MAIN VILLAIN BEING A SYMBIOTE.

    Wakanda was already doing space stuff in Ultimates years before the Galactic Empire stuff. And the Galacti Empire has not been touched at all despite having at least 2 huge events involving space armies (King in Black and Empyre)
    Which is a shame, because you'd think something like that would have a lot more ramifications for the 'verse at large compared to being completely confined to the Black Panther comic. I mean, an intergalactic empire spawned from Wakanda itself, an unconquered, uncolonized African nation; that should be making power players on Earth take serious notice the same way they did in Jason Aaron's Avengers when Black Panther became chairperson and the Avengers formally severed ties with the U.S. government. Come to think of it, given King in Black and all the anti-symbiote measures the Black Panther and Wakanda had ready in the Black Panther one-shot Redjack wrote, you'd think he'd just bring some of that for N'Jadaka/Killmonger himself or his symbiote army here.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  5. #6500
    Fantastic Member Toonstrack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chief12d View Post
    If you think that Coates’ largely poorly selling comic that almost never got referenced outside the main solo is responsible for T’Challa being at the forefront of the Avengers line up and his side characters getting minis then feel free to believe that. I’ve outlined all the evidence that suggests otherwise but if you feel that way more power to you and I hope you continue to enjoy his work.

    I’ll co-sign that Coates did lay out the geography of Wakanda and introduce (but not really expand) new mystical concepts but as of right now it’s impossible to say that those minor updates to the mythos will matter past his run (excluding the Djalia). Most of the locations he laid out didn’t even appear like several of those cities. They objectively didn’t matter outside his book though nor did they elevate T’Challa in the wider scope of Marvel publication.

    Same goes for the empire, potential is there but outside a vague reference in SWORD it’s had no ramifications either and seems to be ignored in the upcoming BP book. Shuri is more like her MCU counterpart than how she was pre-MCU and Griot has not been a relevant concept for her either. I believe the MCU alone was responsible for the scale and story decisions of T’Challa’s push, regardless of the quality you think the main book has. But I respect your support for Coates’ work and hope it opens you to exploring other BP series if you haven’t already read them. He’s a great character and it’s nice to be able to finally discuss the end of one era and the future of the upcoming one, even if we disagree lol.

    Absolutely. The character is one of the dynamic and potential filled in rhe entire MU, there's almost no limit to what you can do with him. I have some catch up to do but im getting around to it, following comics is time consuming af lol

  6. #6501
    Fantastic Member Toonstrack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Which is a shame, because you'd think something like that would have a lot more ramifications for the 'verse at large compared to being completely confined to the Black Panther comic. I mean, an intergalactic empire spawned from Wakanda itself, an unconquered, uncolonized African nation; that should be making power players on Earth take serious notice the same way they did in Jason Aaron's Avengers when Black Panther became chairperson and the Avengers formally severed ties with the U.S. government. Come to think of it, given King in Black and all the anti-symbiote measures the Black Panther and Wakanda had ready in the Black Panther one-shot Redjack wrote, you'd think he'd just bring some of that for N'Jadaka/Killmonger himself or his symbiote army here.

    Well that one shot takes place after the series finale that just came put today so you could argue those were developed as a direct result of these.

    But even then that kinda stuff all hardens back to the overall look and feel of wakanda that was definitely established here. Even stuff like Kimoya bead technology which is basically a mainstay of the wakandan nation now was introduced here. A lot of the "how" of the wakandan tech is established, the aesthetics. The purple tech lining that shows up on faces of soldiers. The clothing and architecture. The airship design. Thats what I'm referring too. Wakana looks very different and also inconsistent in runs previous to this. Based on research we have at least 3 different maps of wakanda and where it is located. The most recent one is almost nothing like the other two but it is the one that defines this era of wakandan influence. This has also influenced the appearance and depiction of wakanda in movies and tv, to an extent.

    Just look at these 2 maps and you can see a bit of what I'm getting at here. The first one was not consistent and even its location would be moved around by other writers. On a more acute scale the actual design of wakanda varied between artists. Some drew it like a regular African nation we were told was super high tech, others drew it like cloud city. The new one has lore attached to its location, specific locals that play into the story and lore in and of themselves and have shown up in the story itself multiple times.

    All of this to say what I've been referring to this whole discussion is worldbuilding. And again for some here that isnt a good thing but Coates did a LOT of world building for the enhanced level of scrutiny this fictional nation has gotten as a result of the MCU push. Its become a thing of its own now to the point where marvel is willing to run wakanda books WITHOUT bp even in them. I dont believe that was nearly as likely to happen before this

    Ultimately maybe thats why they went with coates for so long? This is a guess but maybe they wanted this baseline to build off of, the worldbuilding to be established definitely so every writer doesn't have to come and reinvent the whole nation and how it looks and feels. Who knows

    2e294fc3fb7b6ca964e727b3ab313192.0.jpg
    map_of_wakanda.0.jpg

  7. #6502
    Be seeing you… DigiCom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toonstrack View Post
    Well that one shot takes place after the series finale that just came put today so you could argue those were developed as a direct result of these.
    Well, that's easy enough to determine.

    Hey, Redjack... was it your intention to have the tech used in your one-shot be the result of the invasion by Venomonger? We you inspired by his work at all?
    But even then that kinda stuff all hardens back to the overall look and feel of wakanda that was definitely established here. Even stuff like Kimoya bead technology which is basically a mainstay of the wakandan nation now was introduced here. A lot of the "how" of the wakandan tech is established, the aesthetics. The purple tech lining that shows up on faces of soldiers. The clothing and architecture. The airship design. Thats what I'm referring too.

    None of which was the result of Coates, but Stelfreeze. You'll notice nobody complains about HIM.

    All of this to say what I've been referring to this whole discussion is worldbuilding. And again for some here that isnt a good thing but Coates did a LOT of world building for the enhanced level of scrutiny this fictional nation has gotten as a result of the MCU push. Its become a thing of its own now to the point where marvel is willing to run wakanda books WITHOUT bp even in them. I dont believe that was nearly as likely to happen before this
    Yeah, Coates created the Dora Milaje! And the Midnight Angels! And he was so good, they showed up in books years before he started!

    So far, all you can really give Coates is "He used names on a map!"

    Ultimately maybe thats why they went with coates for so long? This is a guess but maybe they wanted this baseline to build off of, the worldbuilding to be established definitely so every writer doesn't have to come and reinvent the whole nation and how it looks and feels. Who knows
    It's really cute that you think ANY run on a Marvel comic is sacrosanct. It's more common that the new writer throws everything away and starts fresh.

  8. #6503
    Astonishing Member Redjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigiCom View Post
    Well, that's easy enough to determine.

    Hey, Redjack... was it your intention to have the tech used in your one-shot be the result of the invasion by Venomonger? We you inspired by his work at all?
    nope and nope.

    Lee/Kirby.
    Priest.
    Hudlin.
    Aaron.

    those are the influences.

    And, when it comes to Shuri Alchemist and the rest, me.
    Last edited by Redjack; 05-26-2021 at 08:35 PM.

  9. #6504
    Fantastic Member Toonstrack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigiCom View Post
    Well, that's easy enough to determine.

    Hey, Redjack... was it your intention to have the tech used in your one-shot be the result of the invasion by Venomonger? We you inspired by his work at all?



    None of which was the result of Coates, but Stelfreeze. You'll notice nobody complains about HIM.

    What are you basing this claim off of??


    Yeah, Coates created the Dora Milaje! And the Midnight Angels! And he was so good, they showed up in books years before he started!

    Uh I never said any of this lmao

    So far, all you can really give Coates is "He used names on a map!"

    I said a whole lot more than that. The very way wakanda looks is a direct result of his and stelfreezes work. And if you are claiming Stelfreeze did all the designs of the new wakanda himself with zero input from coates I will need a source or something on that.


    It's really cute that you think ANY run on a Marvel comic is sacrosanct. It's more common that the new writer throws everything away and starts fresh.
    To an extent. But there's also an extent to which things will not be changed. The Aaron run on thor, for example, has solidified the look of Asgard for a good long while, pretty definitively. Venom is going to remain Eddie brock for quite some time after this current run, and his son isn't going away either. If Hickman hopped off X men tomorrow there is no way they are erasing Krakoa without some big event and tons of planning. My argument wasn't that the run was unchangeable but that Marvel knows when it can benefit from having a solid baseline from which to spring their stories from and wakanda is one of those things. To that end, Coates and stelfreeze set up this world of wakanda, pretty much from scratch in terms of geography and design aesthetics. Its not really based on a previous writers work on the franchise.

    If it is your wish to dismiss that fact, or attribute it entirely to Stelfreeze, by all means. But based on what we've seen and heard already from the new book I do not think Ridley is out to change these things at least not right away. Time will tell. Ridley has certainly dabbled in retcons but none on that scale. If im wrong I have no problem admitting that.


    As for Redjack, fair enough, as I said it was speculation. I wasn't arguing that he wrote it in there based on that, I was offering an "in universe" possible explanation for why it would be there. It doesn't really need one though.. wakandans can have virtually any tech or powrs show up and it makes sense. All good.
    Last edited by Toonstrack; 05-26-2021 at 08:40 PM.

  10. #6505
    Ultimate Member Ezyo1000's Avatar
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    in Early Interviews Coates says that the aesthetic designs and the force push are all Stelfreeze. Coates doesn't get credit for that. His biggest contribution that will stock will be the names of the cities which don't really matter that much either because the only one we care about is the Golden city which (someone correct me of I'm wrong) I believe Hudlin named that one

  11. #6506
    Fantastic Member Toonstrack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    in Early Interviews Coates says that the aesthetic designs and the force push are all Stelfreeze. Coates doesn't get credit for that. His biggest contribution that will stock will be the names of the cities which don't really matter that much either because the only one we care about is the Golden city which (someone correct me of I'm wrong) I believe Hudlin named that one

    He also introduced something like 12 new supportijf characters within the first 6 issues. I'll try and track down more info about stelfreeze contributions

    EDIT: so I found this interview from stelfreeze done in 2016. In this he makes it sound like a lot of collaboration, idk, your mileage will vary.
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.www...ther-interview

    "The cool thing about it, after reading his rough plot outline, I was just like, “OK, cool.” That gave me a feeling of where we were going. Then I started designing the characters and, particularly with Black Panther, I had some views on what vibranium brings to his suit. I designed some things, did some tech drawings, and then he looked at that and went, “Oh man. That’s cool. I’m going to use that over here.” It was really fun to see his plot inspiring me to design things a certain way, and then see the designs cause him to move the plot in a different direction."

    It also gets into a bit of what I've been saying where they were trying to revamp some of rhe bits of this world and how its depicted.
    "I never really thought about the fact that most of the times I saw Black Panther, he was in New York or in some American city doing something cool with the Avengers. I mean, he’s the Prince of Wakanda, but we rarely saw him in Wakanda. What Ta-Nehisi did was be like, “Hey, this is the most technologically advanced nation in the Marvel world, but they have one of the most primitive forms of government in the entire world. What’s the deal with that?” The moment you hear that you are like, “Yeah, that is kind of weird.” You start to think, “And a lot of times he’s not there governing the people. What’s up with that?” It makes your mind spin. The story is about that. It’s about that grand flaw that we as comic book readers have just accepted for 50 years."
    Last edited by Toonstrack; 05-26-2021 at 11:26 PM.

  12. #6507
    Ultimate Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Ultimately it was a pretty boring run that I doubt will have an impact long term. He neither helped nor hurt the franchise besides creating a few characters and concepts that were better used elsewhere, and squandering the opportunity the film brought the book. I hope Ridley is better, and I think he will be.
    For when my rants on the forums just aren’t enough: https://thevindicativevordan.tumblr.com/

  13. #6508
    Extraordinary Member Cville's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toonstrack View Post
    He also introduced something like 12 new supportijf characters within the first 6 issues. I'll try and track down more info about stelfreeze contributions

    EDIT: so I found this interview from stelfreeze done in 2016. In this he makes it sound like a lot of collaboration, idk, your mileage will vary.
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.www...ther-interview

    "The cool thing about it, after reading his rough plot outline, I was just like, “OK, cool.” That gave me a feeling of where we were going. Then I started designing the characters and, particularly with Black Panther, I had some views on what vibranium brings to his suit. I designed some things, did some tech drawings, and then he looked at that and went, “Oh man. That’s cool. I’m going to use that over here.” It was really fun to see his plot inspiring me to design things a certain way, and then see the designs cause him to move the plot in a different direction."

    It also gets into a bit of what I've been saying where they were trying to revamp some of rhe bits of this world and how its depicted.
    "I never really thought about the fact that most of the times I saw Black Panther, he was in New York or in some American city doing something cool with the Avengers. I mean, he’s the Prince of Wakanda, but we rarely saw him in Wakanda. What Ta-Nehisi did was be like, “Hey, this is the most technologically advanced nation in the Marvel world, but they have one of the most primitive forms of government in the entire world. What’s the deal with that?” The moment you hear that you are like, “Yeah, that is kind of weird.” You start to think, “And a lot of times he’s not there governing the people. What’s up with that?” It makes your mind spin. The story is about that. It’s about that grand flaw that we as comic book readers have just accepted for 50 years."
    Coates' must have been fuming every day after he completed the first arc. His hand was probably shaking having to write that he'd end the story with him becoming Emperor. Lol

    I always said the movie forced him to change directions. Lol

  14. #6509
    Incredible Member Klaue's Mixtape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    So...Holy sheet that was a convoluted mess! Like coates was ALL OVER THE DAMN PLACE. So much plot induced stupidity, so much wasted panel space. All the "Growth" or development whatever you want to call the last 5 years was wasted. Making you go wtf was the point? I think that's what this all boils down to. What was the point of all of this. Piss poor fight Because of a bloated cast, the dialogue was so... Bad. Like who talks like that? Good riddance it's finally over this was a trash ending to a trash series that should of never been greenlit. Let alone go for 5 years. For Coates standard? It's Average, maybe the best ending of all 3 season's, but a polished turd is still a turd. Oh and the Gaslighting was IMMENSE.

  15. #6510
    Be seeing you… DigiCom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toonstrack View Post
    He also introduced something like 12 new supportijf characters within the first 6 issues.
    Let's test that theory.

    Issue #1:

    Zenzi, who has never appeared outside of his work, and is off the board as of issue #25.

    Issue #2:

    The Taifa Ngao, which is just a new name for a concept that's existed since at least the Priest era.
    Hodari. Has actually appeared fairly often. So that's one.
    Akili. Has only appeared in Coates' work. Has no personality. But I'll give it to you anyway.
    Thandiwe & Mbali: Prisoners in a rape camp. Not exactly "supportung cast"
    Lord Mandla: Killed in his second appearance.
    Changamire: Has never appeared outside of Coates work. But still, 3.

    Issue #3

    Tetu: Never appeared outside of Coates' work. Also unusuable.
    "Mother": We're never told what she IS. So not usable.
    Abena: Used three times, as a generic character.

    Issue #4:

    No new characters.

    Issue #5:

    Kwabena Ware. Appeared 4 times.
    A bunch of dictators for T'Challa to ask about how to be a better king.

    Issue #6:

    No new characters.

    So, if I want to be GENEROUS, Coates created Hodari, Akili, Changamire, and Mother. Only Hodari has been used outside of the book (or his Cap run).

    He also created two villains with ill-defined powers, and made them unusable after his run.

    I get the feeling you don't actually KNOW who Coates created, and who he simply reused. But even at the most generous listing, it's hardly 12 new, viable characters. Mostly, they are just names & faces giving exposition.

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